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2014/12/18 02:33:13
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Compel wrote: I seem to remember people telling me that the range of a handgun being even halfway close to hitting the broadside of a barn (possibly slight exaggeration there) was around 15 feet, if fired by someone trained in firing handguns.
I could reliably hit a man sized target at thirty meters. I'm a bit rusty now, but 15 feet is not much at all.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 02:44:16
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Compel wrote: I seem to remember people telling me that the range of a handgun being even halfway close to hitting the broadside of a barn (possibly slight exaggeration there) was around 15 feet, if fired by someone trained in firing handguns.
I only fired my 9mm once in a combat. All other engagements was with my M4 occasionally. Most time was just directing fire
Though the longest one round kill shot from a LEO was 312 feet away using a S&W M&P .40 in Austin TX recently
Holding the reins of two horses with one hand, Austin Police Sgt. Adam Johnson raised his service pistol and fired a bullseye into the target some 312 feet away.
Down went Larry McQuilliams, and so ended his rampage through the streets of the Texas capital, where he’d fired more than 100 rounds from his AK-47 and .22-caliber rifles at buildings. The shot, from Johnson’s Smith & Wesson M&P .40 pistol, hit McQuilliams square in the chest and made the 15-year-veteran the toast of gun enthusiasts around the country.
“At a minimum, it was extraordinary shot,” said Army Maj. John Plaster, a retired Special Forces operator, long-range shooting expert and author of “The Ultimate Sniper: An Advanced Training Manual for Military and Police Snipers.”
It was not immediately clear if Johnson’s center-mass shot killed McQuilliams, or if the longtime criminal died from a self-inflicted shot a moment later. Results from an autopsy are pending, but there’s no disputing the improbably accurate bullet fired by Johnson brought a safe end to the Nov. 28 incident.
Related Image
MP_40.jpgExpand / Contract
Johnson used a department issued Smith and Wesson M & P .40 pistol. (Smith and Wesson)
“It’s not impossible,” Plaster added. “Wild Bill Hickok shot bad guys from a hundred yards away with a handgun, but he was also a great shot.
“I would say what this officer did was phenomenal, especially if he didn’t brace his arm against anything.”
McQuilliams, 49, had multiple weapons, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and a map of 34 downtown buildings that likely were potential targets in his pre-dawn rampage the day after Thanksgiving, according to Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo. He’d already shot up the Mexican consulate, the federal courthouse and a downtown bank.
“For a guy to keep his composure and holding two horses with one hand and taking a one-hand shot with the other hand, it says a lot about the training and professionalism of our police department,” Austin Police Chief Art Acevedo said to the Austin American-Statesman.
Johnson, who works with the Mounted Patrol Unit, was about to get off duty and stabling the horses when he heard shots and returned fire at 2:33 a.m.
On Friday, Johnson, who is on routine administrative leave following the incident, made his first public appearance at a holiday charity event.
The sharpshooter told a local radio host he thanked God for being at the "right place at the right time."
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/18 04:16:54
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
A police officer who shot a 12-year-old dead in a Cleveland park late last month had been judged unfit for police service two years earlier by a small suburban force where he worked for six months, according to records released on Wednesday.
Officer Timothy Loehmann, who killed Tamir Rice on 22 November, was specifically faulted for breaking down emotionally while handling a live gun. During a training episode at a firing range, Loehmann was reported to be “distracted and weepy” and incommunicative. “His handgun performance was dismal,” deputy chief Jim Polak of the Independence, Ohio, police department wrote in an internal memo.
The memo concludes with a recommendation that Loehmann be “released from the employment of the City of Independence”. Less than a week later, on 3 December 2012, Loehmann resigned.
In March of this year, Loehmann was hired by the Cleveland police department. It is unclear whether the department had seen the Independence memo at the time of Loehmann’s hiring.
“I have not received any instruction about it, and I have not received the file” from Independence, said Sgt Ali Pillow, a Cleveland police spokesman. He said the Cleveland department had not commented on whether it had seen the memo from Independence before Loehmann was hired.
On a Saturday afternoon last month, Loehmann and a partner, Frank Garmack, were dispatched to Cleveland’s Cudell Commons Park after a 911 caller reported “a guy” in the park was pointing a “probably fake” gun at people. Surveillance video recovered after the incident showed Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old, handling a pistol-sized pellet gun.
Loehmann shot the boy dead within two seconds of a police car driven by Garmack arriving to the park and pulling to a stop within feet of the child. In the video, released by Cleveland police a week ago, Loehmann appears to fire his gun as he opens the door to leave the police car.
Loehmann has been taken off patrol duties in Cleveland and the shooting is under internal review.
The Independence police memo describes an episode in which a supervising officer suspended gun training with Loehmann after Loehmann had an emotional breakdown about a girlfriend.
“During a state range qualification course, Ptl Loehmann was distracted and weepy,” Polak wrote, naming the trainer as Sgt Tinnirello. “[Loehmann] could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal. Sgt Tinnirello tried to work through this with Ptl Loehmann by giving him some time. But, after some talking it was clear to Sgt Tinnirello that the recruit was just not mentally prepared to be doing firearm training ...
“Ptl Loehmann continued with his emotional meltdown to a point where Sgt Tinnirello could not take him into the store, so they went to get something to eat and he continued to try and calm Ptl Loehmann. Sgt Tinnirello describes the recruit as being very downtrodden, melancholy with some light crying. Sgt Tinnirello later found this emotional perplexity was due to a personal issue with Ptl Loehmann’s on and off again girlfriend whom he was dealing with till 0400 hrs the night before. (Pti Loehmann was scheduled for 0800 the morning in question).”
Some of the comments made by Ptl Loehmann during this discourse were to the effect of, “I should have gone to NY”, “maybe I should quit”, “I have no friends”, “I only hang out with 73-year-old priests”, “I have cried every day for four months about this girl.”
In recommending Loehmann’s dismissal, Polak listed what he said were other performance shortcomings, including Loehmann’s having left his gun unlocked, lied to supervisors and failed to follow orders.
“Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment,” Polak concludes. “For these reasons, I am recommending he be released from the employment of the city of Independence. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.”
2014/12/18 04:23:03
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/18 04:45:03
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Compel wrote: I seem to remember people telling me that the range of a handgun being even halfway close to hitting the broadside of a barn (possibly slight exaggeration there) was around 15 feet, if fired by someone trained in firing handguns.
I could reliably hit a man sized target at thirty meters. I'm a bit rusty now, but 15 feet is not much at all.
On the range, sure. Under stress, though, when someone else points a gun at you, it takes a lot of discipline to actually aim. The ability to shoot the wings off a fly at a thousand yards doesn't matter if you rush the shot at 15 feet. And handguns are much more prone to user error than rifles, what with no stock and all. It's more a measure of how calm under pressure the shooter is than how good a shot they are. Though calm under pressure tends to predispose to good shooting in the first place.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
2014/12/18 05:06:30
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
DarkLink wrote: Under stress, though, when someone else points a gun at you, it takes a lot of discipline to actually aim. The ability to shoot the wings off a fly at a thousand yards doesn't matter if you rush the shot at 15 feet.
IIRC most handgun shootings take place at those 15 foot ranges in the first place. And in the dark. Maybe lights flashing somewhere to throw your aim even worse. Empty a six-shot revolver in the general direction of your target, hit with one shot if you're lucky. The guy who takes cover first is generally the guy getting out alive, isn't he?
Finding articles about at what range some special case managed a hit is about as useful as digging up those silly "one-shot stop" articles ammo manufacturers use to sell their stuff. In a real situation no one's going to shoot once, then wait to see if the guy drops before shooting a second time. If he's worth shooting once you can give him the next few shots too, pressing the trigger until you see him drop.
2014/12/18 06:21:40
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Just for the record, a weapon, be it a knife, gun, grenade, etc is no less lethal in the hands of a child as an adult, just ask my buddies who got drawn down on by kids in the sandbox, or the numerous people killed every year by child soldiers in Africa.
That's obviously false.
A kid swinging or thrusting a blunt, pointed, or edged weapon is far less likely to engage in lethal action than an adult. Kids don't know what they're doing and lack strength.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 06:28:38
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/12/18 06:29:54
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Orlanth wrote: It is not for me to say how this is best done tactically.
Wouldn't that statement go both ways though, meaning that defending them is as useless as saying that they did it right?
I am defending the cops right to emphasise self preservation while confronting armed suspects. I will leave to more experienced persons to assess the fancy footwork involved.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Just for the record, a weapon, be it a knife, gun, grenade, etc is no less lethal in the hands of a child as an adult, just ask my buddies who got drawn down on by kids in the sandbox, or the numerous people killed every year by child soldiers in Africa.
That's obviously false.
A kid swinging or thrusting a blunt, pointed, or edged weapon is far less likely to engage in lethal action than an adult. Kids don't know what they're doing and lack strength.
I am not so sure dogma. Kids might have less muscle power but they also have underdeveloped moral compass. If you get a child used to killing they cross the line and go further than an adult as easily would. i beleive accounts that vhild soldiers can be especially brutal, also kid gangs in more explosive cities. There is a reason why a lot of the more dangerous street gangs are heavily populated by teenagers. Children are also far more easy to radicalise than adults.
You are right that a kid with a knife is less of a threat than the same person several years older, then again with a child you might not see the attack coming as easily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 06:36:58
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2014/12/18 06:40:53
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Compel wrote: I seem to remember people telling me that the range of a handgun being even halfway close to hitting the broadside of a barn (possibly slight exaggeration there) was around 15 feet, if fired by someone trained in firing handguns.
I could reliably hit a man sized target at thirty meters. I'm a bit rusty now, but 15 feet is not much at all.
On the range, sure. Under stress, though, when someone else points a gun at you, it takes a lot of discipline to actually aim. The ability to shoot the wings off a fly at a thousand yards doesn't matter if you rush the shot at 15 feet. And handguns are much more prone to user error than rifles, what with no stock and all. It's more a measure of how calm under pressure the shooter is than how good a shot they are. Though calm under pressure tends to predispose to good shooting in the first place.
I never fired an M9 in combat. If I had it would have meant that things have gone horribly wrong, since pistols are short range, last resort weapons. I am still fairly sure I could have taken down a target at 25 meters with one though. I am positive that I could hit a target with that M9 at 5 meters. Aiming a pistol is far more instinctual then a rifle in my opinion. You just point at the target. Why is this relevant?
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 07:08:41
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Is it not relevant? Someone mentioned shooting as being easy, I just pointed out that it's more difficult under real life circumstances. In practice most cops miss with the majority of their shots, but while they're not exactly special forces or anything they do have to meet certain standards. Sometime, if you're asking "why is X so difficult", the most simple answer is "turns out it's more difficult in pactice than it first appears". I mean, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just pointing out that shooting in a real combat sitution is harder than shooting t a range under ideal conditions.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
2014/12/18 07:31:27
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
DarkLink wrote: Is it not relevant? Someone mentioned shooting as being easy, I just pointed out that it's more difficult under real life circumstances. In practice most cops miss with the majority of their shots, but while they're not exactly special forces or anything they do have to meet certain standards. Sometime, if you're asking "why is X so difficult", the most simple answer is "turns out it's more difficult in pactice than it first appears". I mean, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just pointing out that shooting in a real combat sitution is harder than shooting t a range under ideal conditions.
No, I meant, why is marksmanship being discussed at all. We went off topic before your post, I wasn't trying to blame you for it. My apologies.
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k - 2.5k - .5k - (Dark Hunters)
2014/12/18 12:32:27
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
DarkLink wrote: Is it not relevant? Someone mentioned shooting as being easy, I just pointed out that it's more difficult under real life circumstances. In practice most cops miss with the majority of their shots, but while they're not exactly special forces or anything they do have to meet certain standards. Sometime, if you're asking "why is X so difficult", the most simple answer is "turns out it's more difficult in pactice than it first appears". I mean, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just pointing out that shooting in a real combat sitution is harder than shooting t a range under ideal conditions.
Practicing just conditions you. Combat is combat when you know you are being actually targeted to get "opted out". Same applies to the Insurgents. LEO though is not (unless a Veteran) "use" to being engage in a trigger pulling match.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/18 16:34:47
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
whembly wrote: Do we really have all the facts in this case yet?
Nope we've just got an OP who can write an inflammatory title but doesn't understand the forensic definition of "Homicide".
I understand well enough the intent of a news article that leads off with "homicide" in big letters.
Then your next step is to look beyond the intent of a news article title to what facts are actually known and formulate a title that is informative rather than inflammatory. The "intent" of a news article title doesn't absolve those who repost said article of responsibility for the way they do so.
You're halfway there…
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 16:35:23
I cant tell that is the case from the video, but we have no evidence to the contrary.
So you will happily make assumptions to the contrary?
Burden of proof. There was no sound on the video and any action condemning the policemen involved requires burden of proof. It is normal to shout warnings, police are trained to shout warnings. There is an actionablee case if no warnings were shouted and thus the policemen like other people has the right to the standard bar for a defense, that a case must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Give us earwitnesses at close range who said there was no warning given and I will reassess my position.
The OP in the last thread indicated that warnings were given.
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon -- which didn't have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle -- from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make verbal threats, Tomba said, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands. He died Sunday at MetroHealth Medical Center.
I am not taking anything as evidence beyond what was already in the public domain.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2014/12/18 22:51:54
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
I cant tell that is the case from the video, but we have no evidence to the contrary.
So you will happily make assumptions to the contrary?
Burden of proof. There was no sound on the video and any action condemning the policemen involved requires burden of proof. It is normal to shout warnings, police are trained to shout warnings. There is an actionablee case if no warnings were shouted and thus the policemen like other people has the right to the standard bar for a defense, that a case must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Give us earwitnesses at close range who said there was no warning given and I will reassess my position.
The OP in the last thread indicated that warnings were given.
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon -- which didn't have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle -- from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make verbal threats, Tomba said, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands. He died Sunday at MetroHealth Medical Center.
I am not taking anything as evidence beyond what was already in the public domain.
speaking of his training, the police dept that fired him said he can't be trained. Given the immaturity of jumping out of the car that I would bet is never covered in any police training, it's safe to assume he wasn't following any police training.
"In recommending Loehmann’s dismissal, Polak listed what he said were other performance shortcomings, including Loehmann’s having left his gun unlocked, lied to supervisors and failed to follow orders.
Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment,” Polak concludes. “For these reasons, I am recommending he be released from the employment of the city of Independence. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.”
He has a past history of lying to supervisors, he's probably lying about issuing any orders. Until you can produce a witness that says he issued any orders and in the absence of proof, there is no reason to believe he issued any. With the statements from his past supervisor in the public domain, the officer might as well start looking for loans to pay court fees and settlements.
and after double checking your link, nothing says any warnings were given. I'm not sure where you got that idea from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/18 22:54:20
2014/12/18 23:23:12
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Burden of proof. There was no sound on the video and any action condemning the policemen involved requires burden of proof.
The standards of evidence required to investigate, or indict, is not the same as that required to convict. There seems to be plenty of evidence to warrant an investigation.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/12/22 01:16:41
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Burden of proof. There was no sound on the video and any action condemning the policemen involved requires burden of proof. It is normal to shout warnings, police are trained to shout warnings. There is an actionablee case if no warnings were shouted and thus the policemen like other people has the right to the standard bar for a defense, that a case must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Give us earwitnesses at close range who said there was no warning given and I will reassess my position.
The OP in the last thread indicated that warnings were given.
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon -- which didn't have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle -- from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make verbal threats, Tomba said, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands. He died Sunday at MetroHealth Medical Center.
I am not taking anything as evidence beyond what was already in the public domain.
The video shows that there was no time for warnings to be given. The police car drove up, the officer got out and shot the kid as he was getting out of the car. So unless the officer was shouting hands up from out of the window as the car was driving towards the kid, I'd say he's lying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 01:17:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/12/22 01:54:40
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Seemed the kid was drawing the "weapon" as Loehmann was exiting the vehicle.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/22 02:13:29
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Burden of proof. There was no sound on the video and any action condemning the policemen involved requires burden of proof. It is normal to shout warnings, police are trained to shout warnings. There is an actionablee case if no warnings were shouted and thus the policemen like other people has the right to the standard bar for a defense, that a case must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Give us earwitnesses at close range who said there was no warning given and I will reassess my position.
The OP in the last thread indicated that warnings were given.
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon -- which didn't have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle -- from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make verbal threats, Tomba said, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands. He died Sunday at MetroHealth Medical Center.
I am not taking anything as evidence beyond what was already in the public domain.
The video shows that there was no time for warnings to be given. The police car drove up, the officer got out and shot the kid as he was getting out of the car. So unless the officer was shouting hands up from out of the window as the car was driving towards the kid, I'd say he's lying.
The video does seem to show things moving rather quickly. I wonder if the car has speakers that were in use on the way in. Any word on that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 02:13:51
2014/12/22 02:16:40
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
The video does seem to show things moving rather quickly. I wonder if the car has speakers that were in use on the way in. Any word on that?
I believe someone here said it didn't but I haven't seen any information about it on any news site so maybe they were basing it on the look of the car?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/12/22 02:23:20
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
The video does seem to show things moving rather quickly. I wonder if the car has speakers that were in use on the way in. Any word on that?
I believe someone here said it didn't but I haven't seen any information about it on any news site so maybe they were basing it on the look of the car?
It seems like that could be the only way they could reasonably have expected the kid to have heard the order, but I don't know. Just guessing here pending further learning.
2014/12/22 03:56:31
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Jihadin wrote: Seemed the kid was drawing the "weapon" as Loehmann was exiting the vehicle.
Really? As he was casually walking up to the approaching police car? If so, that was the slowest, most casual weapon draw I have ever seen.
He's clearly reaching for the weapon in the video.
Right, but he is not reaching for it so that he can draw it on the police that are rolling up on him. He also left any sort of protection of the tables and walked up to them slowly, slowly reached in to his waistband and bam, shot.
Can he not slowly reach for the weapon and slowly pull it out, presenting it to the police? Nah man, he was there to murder police and cause havoc! That is why he was sitting at the picnic table for so long causing no problems.
2014/12/22 04:39:52
Subject: Re:Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Hey cincy, did you find a video with audio where we can hear the police telling him to put his hands up? If you could provide that, it would be fantastic. Otherwise, I am not sure what point you are trying to make other than just being contrary.
2014/12/22 05:00:10
Subject: Looks like they've finally decided to throw some cops to the mob
Dreadwinter wrote: Hey cincy, did you find a video with audio where we can hear the police telling him to put his hands up? If you could provide that, it would be fantastic. Otherwise, I am not sure what point you are trying to make other than just being contrary.
Can you find me some where he put his hands up and doesn't reach for his waistband?
Or maybe some video where he wasn't fething around with what appeared to be a real firearm?
(Dark Hunters)
