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Man I really need to get my hands on that codex. The only necron player in my area is on vacation and hasn't even picked it up, so all of us don't know how bad it is

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Thermal cannons are pretty bad for their cost. 370 points for a single melta shot is pathetic.

At melta range you have less than a 25% chance of destroying a ghost ark.

Compared to other anti tank threats out there, that is very manageable.

By the way, jinking does not effect passengers, so the warriors still fire at full BS.

Melta range is also 18, so next turn the barge could get its warriors into rapid fire range if it wanted to.

Necrons vs knights is one of the toughest match ups for the latter. I can see adamantine lance as a fair match up, but not a counter.

The Adamantine Lance is also generally seen as one of the more abusive things in 40k right now in and of itself.

Obviously the Daemonkin Codex with Beserkers everywhere and buying their ap4 chainaxes upgrade!


Actually I am curious to how well it would work now.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Thermal cannons are pretty bad for their cost. 370 points for a single melta shot is pathetic.

At melta range you have less than a 25% chance of destroying a ghost ark.

Compared to other anti tank threats out there, that is very manageable.

By the way, jinking does not effect passengers, so the warriors still fire at full BS.

Melta range is also 18, so next turn the barge could get its warriors into rapid fire range if it wanted to.

Necrons vs knights is one of the toughest match ups for the latter. I can see adamantine lance as a fair match up, but not a counter.

Lol. I'm old I guess and sometimes get previous editions' rules mixed up with current; I guess the old way made more sense to me than the passengers not being affected by their transport performing evasive maneuvers.

And the lance can assault. Again, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum. Necrons are tough vs knights but they die to them just as easily. Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."? Nah. I've been beaten by them but I've also tabled necrons (it is possible) with not only knights but Grey knights and dark eldar as well.

<Ooops, I repeated myself>

Recap, Necrons are vulnerable to lots of warp charge points.

 luky7dayz wrote:
Man I really need to get my hands on that codex. The only necron player in my area is on vacation and hasn't even picked it up, so all of us don't know how bad it is

Oh, you're in for a treat, I'll tell you hwhat.

Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."?

Do whatever you like.

I just disagree with your sentiment that adamantine lance is a hard counter to necrons.

It is competitive to be sure, but necrons are stronger against them than most.

If the lance is a hard counter to necrons, then its a hard counter to almost everything in the game.

I sincerely don't believe Necrons are unbeatable and that we're even bringing up "spamming DArks" is ridiculous.

People whining about it haven't shifted how they play.
Yes, they are very hard to kill. Get over it. There are plenty of ways around out that are counter-intuitive to a meta that pretty much until now screamed and ranted how assault was worthless outside of a few units.

Answer, again: Poison. Pie plates. Psychic powers.

I have played with pretty even odds against Necrons using my IG and a friends SM. It's not impossible.

Yes, they can be beaten, so can Eldar and Daemon flying circuses.

The point of this thread, however, is there any matchup which would be inherently very difficult for 'Crons to beat? Marines melt to Eldar, Tyranids to Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar to Guard, there are certain codex matchups which are very difficult to eek out a win with "normal" lists for most armies. Necron durability means that point for point, they will out-last anything in the game, so the question as to their standout vulnerability is much more awkward than most.

How do you fight something that will always have, sans D weapon, a 4++? Un-ignorable FNP is godly, and while 'crons don't have the raw firepower of Tau or Eldar, or the assault potential of Daemons, that ability to survive in a game where so much of a power creep has been in firepower which means, for the most part, feth all vs 'crons counts for an awful lot. For armies which rely on low volume of fire, high power weapons like Marines, the situations rapidly becomes untenable.

I think the general consensus is an assault focus tied with objectives; get durable units of your own to tie down the bulk of Necron forces; you won't kill many of them even with the best of units, but their own assault potential is limited to a few units which aren't as scary durable, aside from Wraiths. Things with 2+ saves or a lot of wounds at a decent price will tie the 'crons up for a very long time, and win or lose in that assault you'll have time to go for VPs. Don't even bother shooting at warriors, focus on those units you can't tie down with your firepower and drown them in bullets/lasers/monomolecular cheese (that's what Eldar shoot, right?). By no means a hard counter, as I don't believe one exists shy of a squadron of Reaver Titans, but the only real conclusion I can draw.

Ferros wrote:
I sincerely don't believe Necrons are unbeatable and that we're even bringing up "spamming DArks" is ridiculous.

People whining about it haven't shifted how they play.
Yes, they are very hard to kill. Get over it. There are plenty of ways around out that are counter-intuitive to a meta that pretty much until now screamed and ranted how assault was worthless outside of a few units.

Answer, again: Poison. Pie plates. Psychic powers.

I have played with pretty even odds against Necrons using my IG and a friends SM. It's not impossible.

For some of my own anecdotal evidence, I've placed 1st in three of my last four tournaments (all running IG) and 2nd at the 4th (with CSM's). I won't claim to be a Warhammer Napoleon, but I'd like to think I'm at least halfway competent. I haven't seen a Necron army with the new book lose yet, and at least one of those first-place finishes was due to not having drawn a game against the Necrons.

Simply saying "deal with it" when referring to their resiliency is both absurdly dismissive of very real issues, and unproductive. Many armies, even if relatively tailored, often simply cannot generate the sheer volume of fire needed to put down many units which Necrons can field, and many more cannot do so while remaining viable Take All Comers armies or within the context of a reasonable theme.

Lets go through your suggestions.

Poison. Well, ok, DE have that. Tyranids have it on some CC units but little/no shooting. So pretty much just DE. All this does is mitigate Toughness however, and Necrons get their full armor saves and RP against it, requiring incredible volume and concentration, and only really comes into play against T5+ units over more basic weapons like bolters and shootas, while against T4 units like Warriors, Flayed Ones, and Immortals there's no advantage conferred.


Psychic Powers: Well, lets start. Not every army has access to these. Of those that do, not all of them have access to Discpiplines that are worth anything. Even for those that do, what you get is random (in the majority of cases), while Necrons are particularly resistant to many psychic powers by dint of high toughness and leadership/widespread Fearless. An extremely high degree of variability here and a lack of universal availability.

Pie Plates. Ok, well, these are about the easiest to mitigate weapons in the game, and aside from D strength pieplates, you don't exactly see pie-plate driving wins. A modicum of spread will vastly decrease the potency of blast weapons, as will any sort of cover. Combine the two and their effectiveness drops dramatically, and that's not even getting into RP or the fact that their efficacy depends heavily on the simple size of the enemy unit (hitting a 3 man unit of Wraiths isn't anywhere near as productiive as hitting a 20man Warrior unit). *Can* they do stuff? Sure, I'm not saying they're impotent, but they're extremely unreliable and variable, and are much more a psychological deterrent than outstandingly effective weapons.

Lets look at an example. Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion. Lets assume the Warriors are in 5+ cover ,and the pieplate can be placed such that it reasonably hits 5 models. Well, *assuming* a direct hit, that gives us 5 hits, all of which ignore cover. They're wounded on 2's, no armor, no cover, and thus we get 4.166 wounds. 4+ RP kicks into play, and that gets reduced to 2.08 wounds. Lets assume the Eradicator also has a trio of heavy bolters. So from that we get 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, no armor but 5+ cover applies so 2 unsaved wounds, 4+ RP kicks in and we get 1 dead Necron Warrior. So we had a ~150pt tank tossing a pieplate that ignored the armor save of the Warriors and any Cover, and three other heavy weapons contributing, and ended up killing 3 on average, assuming a direct hit from the main gun. 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls. And that's about as good as you can reasonably hope to get against what's probably the weakest unit Necrons have. How many Necron players are going to be terribly afraid of something like that?

Yeah, If you try to shoot them down, it's not gonna work,but they are still vulnerable to CC.

I have played plenty of games with the new dex, and the decurion. It is tough, and against casual pick up lists, even basic lists walked over the enemies.
However against people practicing for tourney lists, they are easy enough to bring down. People have cheese to match ours.

Against draigo/centstar. It struggles, ghost arks are at the minimum getting immobilised if they look at them. Bring as many warriors as you want, but 6+ to hit, 5+ to wound,2+ armor. You dont have enough shots to remove them.
Then come the Dreadknights. mobile enough to stay out of your ideal range until they want to assault and sweep you. Flamer cuts through warriors, and psycannon helps.

Necrons DO NOT have widespread fearless. Our only fearless units are canoptek/C'tan/Praets.

Next up, Adamantine lance.
People like to pretend that we are the strongest match up against them. Far from. Necrons are the best army to deal with 1 knight, the worst to deal with 3.

Math it out, assume 20 warriors + Gark w/10 warriors, all in rapid fire range. 70 shots - 46 hits - 8 Hp - 2 unsaved.
505 points for 2 hp, and you WILL lose them all next turn.
3xStr9 melta cannons in melta range if needed. then the knight charges. D3 S10 HoW, 4 D attacks, then stomps. You will lose at least 4/5 warriors, and they will get swept. Only 1 knight really needs to focus them.

Try to tie them up with scarabs? STOMP Wraiths(tried this) STOMP. Anything else, they can out maneuvre. Thats all excluding the other 500 points in the knight army.

The way to deal with lance is either get into CC on your terms (deathwing knights in a stormwolf, / Dreadknights etc.) or negate the shield (firedragons in a raider+webway portal). We have no real way to force either situation. (no transport for Warscythes/No deepstrike melta.)

I havent played against other tourney lists, but i'd feel we can tank a flyrant list, but AdLance and draigostar, are uphill battles.

-Counters. (Tested)
Adamantine Lance
Dreadknights + Draigostar

My Wraiths fear S10 weapons and massive small arms fire.
The latter they can avoided as they are fast enough to pick their target.
The S10 problem (e.g. Manticore, DK, and WK) can be hard to counter as a Necron player.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."?

Do whatever you like.

I just disagree with your sentiment that adamantine lance is a hard counter to necrons.

It is competitive to be sure, but necrons are stronger against them than most.

If the lance is a hard counter to necrons, then its a hard counter to almost everything in the game.

Anecdotal evidence not counting, Ad Lance hasn't had any trouble with Necrons Decurion for me and if you're focusing on the lance, the Lancer and Acheron or Castigator are in your backfield sweeping through your units and believe me, if you think 1 ghost ark is enough to take a Ad Lance down before it's in your face, you're playing the wrong people, you're dedicating your entire army to take down 1 knight a turn. You think people hate Necron rerolls, Ad Lance 4++ rerolls on glances and pens really gets to people. The Ad Lance is big enough to multi-assault so anything you put in rapid fire range to try and shave hull points is likely getting assaulted and will die, no if, will.

I want you to focus on the lance. Ignore that Acheron coming up the side and laying the Hellstorm template across half your army, please do that or the Castigator wading into your big herd of warriors and using his tempest attack.

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.


Side note:
If I take an allied psyker, is there anything stopping me from dropping invisibility on an IK? Never done it and it just occurred to me.

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

I'm not talking competitive W40k, because I haven't done any of that stuff. I play in a 6month campaign in which the more you win territory, the more chance you have to win the big brize at the end. So people usually try to win. I play Orks only in this campaign.

My personal results is: It's a fair fight against Necron if I play Green Tide. They wreck my Speedfreaks, but Green tide do well. You have so many bodies to chew through, and a high volume of fire/attack. Yes they have double saves, but it's pretty much like swarming 2+ save: make them roll a 100 per turn, and you will see them fail a bunch. (there a big factor chance, I have to agree. But Orks are lucky bastards )

Take Lias Issodon, atleast 5 Grav cents, and a large amount of scouts with the sergeants having combigravs ( everyone having Raptors chapter tactics ) and a Smashf***** with gravgun bikers.

If you win the starting roll you can delete 200-700 points of Necrons on the first turn depending on the vaurious variables such as knowing what you're doing and how to play Issodon and Raptors. If you don't, you can do it next turn if you know how to deploy your army in a way that you can maximize benefits from stealth and shrouded.

Just to make sure, double T weapons give the minus 1 to RP rolls right?

Edit: I don't think Necrons are unbeatable, I just think there isn't a lot of lists that are straight up loses for Necrons.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Stripping three hull points certainly isn't difficult. The real problem is half-killing the knight with something hard hitting before it does too much damage.

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Seriously check some statistics from some tournaments. Overall out of all the opposing codices Knights have the lowest win rate vs necrons.

Also, why do you think every shot is going to be at the shield? With every weapon in most squads across the entire army capable of harming a knight it will be very difficult to cover all your angles all the time.

changemod wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Stripping three hull points certainly isn't difficult. The real problem is half-killing the knight with something hard hitting before it does too much damage.

And a half-dead knight does what exactly? It's still fully-functional until all 6 hull points are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Seriously check some statistics from some tournaments. Overall out of all the opposing codices Knights have the lowest win rate vs necrons.

Also, why do you think every shot is going to be at the shield? With every weapon in most squads across the entire army capable of harming a knight it will be very difficult to cover all your angles all the time.

Am I the only person in the universe that plays with terrain on the table? It's like people play on open tables, always have clear fields of fire and always roll 6s. I've had to blow-up buildings just so I could move my knights around on tables that I've played on (urban).

On tournaments. Tournaments often/always limit rules in some way, change them in others and the results are skewed accordingly. They also have their own missions, often with very little terrain...etc. I'm not a competitive player, have played in exactly 1 tournament in the more than 20 years of 40k I've played and probably never will play in another so, yeah, tournaments are tournaments.

All I've got is anecdotal evidence which means nothing to anybody else, all that I can say is that yes, Gauss can be a pain but 6's are not as common as some people think they are and if you're spending the points for destroyers, you're missing volume of fire to strip enough HP so it's often 6's you'll need. The only thing that I truly fear from crons is cron-air with my knights.

Edit: The pic below is from adepticon 2015, seriously, where's the terrain? "In the grim darkness of the future, there are no buildings and no fighting in urban areas, all combatants agree to fight in empty wastelands." Of course it's easy to flank knights when there aren't buildings to get in the way of your ghost arks...

Does anyone have any Bat Reps of Knights vs. Crons? I'd be super interested to see some data, because going in, I think Crons have the maneuverability and firepower to kill Knights. I don't think its an auto win, but I think Crons have a bit more advantage.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Take Lias Issodon, atleast 5 Grav cents, and a large amount of scouts with the sergeants having combigravs ( everyone having Raptors chapter tactics ) and a Smashf***** with gravgun bikers.

If you win the starting roll you can delete 200-700 points of Necrons on the first turn depending on the vaurious variables such as knowing what you're doing and how to play Issodon and Raptors. If you don't, you can do it next turn if you know how to deploy your army in a way that you can maximize benefits from stealth and shrouded.

This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:

-Counters. (Tested)
Adamantine Lance
Dreadknights + Draigostar

While I'm not directly disagreeing with you, we do have tools to deal with things like this, just no one would bring them in a competitive setting (Nightbringer, Doom Scythes, Monoliths, ext). Also, saying that the best counters for even casual Necron lists are the cheesiest lists out there right now really isn't that shocking.

 wuestenfux wrote:
My Wraiths fear S10 weapons and massive small arms fire.
The latter they can avoided as they are fast enough to pick their target.
The S10 problem (e.g. Manticore, DK, and WK) can be hard to counter as a Necron player.

They should be practically immune to small arms fire. A single Wraith, without RP, should require an average of 27 BS4 Bolter shots to take down. A unit of 6 in a Harvest formation within a Decurion will require an average of 324 BS4 Bolter shots, or 864 BS3 Lasgun shots. They're one of the most small-arms resistant units in the game.

Even S10, with that 3++ save, they're falling a lot less than something like TWC's typically (especially for their base cost), and if they're getting Decurion 4+ RP (downgraded to 5+), you're needing an average of 5.4 S10 hits to kill a single Wraith.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion... 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls.

Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work. Necrons are supposedly balanced out by low range and low speed. Are they going to be in cover during 5 turns of footslogging across the table? You're not supposed to be removing them en masse every time you shoot. That whole example is looking at things the wrong way -- you should be looking at how many turns of consequence-free fire you have, before that Eradicator is actually taking damage.

I think it's more the fast harassment units getting in your face on turn 2 that are causing people problems. You hear a lot more resentment about Wraiths and Tomb Blades than Warriors.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion... 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls.

Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work. Necrons are supposedly balanced out by low range and low speed. Are they going to be in cover during 5 turns of footslogging across the table? You're not supposed to be removing them en masse every time you shoot. That whole example is looking at things the wrong way -- you should be looking at how many turns of consequence-free fire you have, before that Eradicator is actually taking damage.

Again, that example was about as optimal as you're going to get. When that's *above* average, that should tell you something.

With any decent spread or scatter, that wound output will drop, netting you a more realistic average of ~1.5 dead Warriors a turn. For a ~150pt battle tank optimized for killing 4+sv infantry, that's not exactly a stellar output against 13ppm infantry. Against anything else in the Necron army it'll do far worse.

As for consequence free shooting, assuming it only has to worry about the Warriors, the Eradicator only gets 36" of range, with a 12" deployment, even if it's sitting with its butt to the board edge, the Warriors can engage turn 2 at worst (6" move from 12" up turn one, plus a run move of at least one inch, then a turn two move of 6" puts them within 24" of the enemy table edge and likely 19" away from the front of the Eradicator hull). So two turns at best if the IG player goes first, one turn otherwise. If the Eradicator is within the forward 6" of its deployment zone, it can be engaged turn 1 (if we're assuming these are being deployed such that the Eradicator is going to have range turn 1 and they're not on opposite corners of the board where they both have to advance for several turns before either can engage).

I think it's more the fast harassment units getting in your face on turn 2 that are causing people problems. You hear a lot more resentment about Wraiths and Tomb Blades than Warriors.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that there aren't wider issues as well. The changes to the RP functionality and the east with which it can be enhanced, and that it effectively can't be worked around (i.e. by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work) coupled with the inherent issues with pie plate weapons, make the earlier suggestions of "use pie plates" much less effective than it would appear.

This guy managed to counter quite effectively, follow his lead next time you play against decurion!

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work.

Thematically, Terminators aren't supposed to die to every sixth Las pistol shot. Many Chaos Marines are supposed to have the same equipment and training as regular Space Marines. Etc etc.

You can talk about theme all you want but at the end of the day a game needs to have balance and be fun for everyone. An unkillable army that can damage anything it attacks and has plenty of support from under priced, equally unkillable fast movers is neither balanced nor fun to play against.