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2015/05/10 23:57:23
Subject: Re:Cheapest Character That Can Kill Jain Zar
bullyboy wrote: you're off on your numbers whiskey, solitaire tops zar for wounds. zar has 4 attacks base, 3 if she uses her Disarming Strike rule. She'll hit the Solitaire on 3's, wound on 3's, and the sol saves on 3's. she only wounds him .444 each round of combat. The Solitaire with Cegorach's Rose dishes out more wounds due to the special weapons (can't remove both, only one. The Caress will put an auto wound on any 6. The Rose is almost an auto wound due to Master Crafted and Shred.
Let's have fun with math!
Before I get started, I'm going to mention that I'll try to cover as many variables as possible, but I won't cover all of them. For comparison between multiple options, I will consider the following characters:
Spoiler:
-Jain Zar, @ 200 points (obviously)
-Solitaire, @ 145 points (base price; Cegorach's Rose is an additional +15. IMO it's not really worth it since your opponent will almost certainly Disarm it*)
-Lelith Hesperax, @ 150 points (base price, don't bother with the Impaler as her League Apart rule overrides it anyways)
-Drazhar, @190 points
-Eversor, @ 135 points
-Culexus, @140 points
-Callidus, @ 150 points
-Crowe, @ 175 points
-Lucius, @ 165 points
-Kharn, @ 160 points
-Obyron, @ 120 points
-Mephiston, @ 175 points
-Swarmlord, @ 285 points
*I don't consider paying points for something you won't get to use in conditions where it would matter most to be a great idea.
Solitaire results; he does better than I expected, TBH. Still, I'm not sold on him against Zar; I don't think he's really a great choice, since he's very reliant on what weapon is Disarmed (IMO).
Spoiler:
Solitaire vs Jain Zar, locked in combat, Disarm Kiss Jain Zar is WS7/I7, S/T4. Solitaire is WS4/I5, S/T3, due to the Mask of Jain Zar.
Zar will swing with 3 attacks, get two hits, and inflict ~1.78 wounds, for ~0.59 unsaved wounds Solitaire will swing back with 6 attacks, for 3 hits, and ~0.167 unsaved wounds, +1 more for the Caress. Total ~1.167 unsaved wounds for the Solitaire.
Addendum: Zar is actually doing more damage to a Solitaire than you'd think. I believe you've missed that Zar's weapon also has Shred, allowing her to re-roll failed To-Wound rolls.
Solitaire vs Zar, Zar charges, Disarm Kiss Zar is 4 Attacks due to charge bonus, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.37 wounds, and ~0.79 unsaved wounds Solitaire will swing as above, for ~1.167 unsaved wounds on Zar
Zar will probably kill the Soli before he kills her, due to the Initiative difference. However, the Solitaire will absolutely have put a big dent in her, to the point that a bunch of regular Harlies toting Caresses could probably finish her off.
Solitaire vs Zar, Solitaire Blitzes, Disarm Kiss Zar 3 Attacks, for ~0.59 unsaved wounds
Solitaire 11 Attacks (Blitz+Charge), ~5.5 hits, ~1.83 wounds, ~0.31 unsaved wounds from basic attacks
Caress provides ~1.84 additional wounds from AP2, for a total of ~2.15 unsaved wounds.
Looks like if a Solitaire manages to Blitz Zar, and is lucky on the Disarm choice to keep his Caress, then he'll rip into her pretty handily. That is a few more "ifs" and "is lucky" than I'd say is desirable, however.
Time for a catfight with Hesperax vs Zar:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar doesn't go for a Disarm, as Hesperax's AP2 is via a special rule, and her CCWs are otherwise "generic" weapons.
Zar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.37 wounds, ~0.78 unsaved wounds Lelith will have 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, for ~4.5 hits, ~2.5 wounds, ~2.5 unsaved wounds
Zar charges Zar will have 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~3.34 hits, ~2.97 wounds, ~0.98 unsaved wounds Lelith will, as before, put ~2.5 unsaved wounds on to Zar
Lelith charges Zar is, as above, ~0.78 unsaved wounds onto Lelith
Lelith will put out 7 attacks, ~5.25 hits, ~2.92 wounds, ~2.92 unsaved wounds
Note: all of the above results are without factoring PfP. Here's some of that:
Holy gak, Lelith Hesperax is nearly guaranteed to kill Jain Zar in a single round of combat if she charges first! Even if she doesn't charge first, she's pretty much guaranteed to kill Jain Zar in 2 rounds of combat. I think DE players will be really stoked to hear that! If you get to Turn 4, and can charge Hesperax into Zar's unit, Hesperax is guaranteed to kill Zar, with nearly two wounds worth of overkill!
Considering Hesperax also costs ~75% of Zar, that's a fantastically good deal.
Time for Drazhar to step up to the plate:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.23 wounds, and pushes through:
-2.23 unsaved wounds if on Turn 1
-1.86 unsaved wounds if on Turn 2
-1.49 unsaved wounds if on Turn 3+
Drazhar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 5+, for ~1.33 hits, and ~1.11 wounds, ~1.11 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar will apply ~2.97 AP2 wounds to Drazhar. When referencing PfP, this becomes:
-~2.47 unsaved Turn 2
-~1.98 unsaved Turn 3+
Zar charges, Disarms Zar's damage output can be referenced from the "locked in combat" section. He'll then strike back with ~0.15 unsaved wounds and die in either the second or third round of combat.
Drazhar charges, no Disarm Drazhar will strike with ~1.39 unsaved wounds. He still dies in an ensuing round of combat, but might take Zar with him if is never Disarmed.
Drazhar charges, Zar Disarms Zar applies ~1.5 AP2 wounds to Drazhar, who then applies ~0.19 unsaved wounds. Zar's damage output is:
-~1.25 unsaved on Turn 2
-~1 unsaved wound on Turn 3+
So he dies in 3 rounds as long as Zar disarms him. He will do little to no damage if he is Disarmed in ever round.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 4 (for FC), no Disarm Zar applies ~1.49 unsaved wounds to Drazhar. He then trikes back with 5 attacks, at S6/AP2, for ~1.39 unsaved wounds.
So long as he's not disarmed in subsequent turns, he's got good odds to take Zar with him when he dies.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 6 (for FC+Rage), no Disarm Zar applies ~1.49 unsaved wounds to Drazhar. He then retaliates with 6 attacks, and inflicts ~2 wounds. In the next round he's about 50/50 to kill Zar.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 4+, Zar Disarms Zar rips his head off. Slowly.
Unfortunately it would seem that our wayward Phoenix Lord, the Master of Blades, is not up to the task of claiming Zar's head. If he rolls hot and isn't Disarmed, he can definitely do a lot of damage- but he's extremely reliant on his Demiklaives, which are also his only weapon. Without them he's just so much meat before the grinder.
Eversors go "WRRYYYYYY"
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar hits first with 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~0.67 unsaved wounds Eversor strikes back with 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, 1.62 wounds, ~0.27 unsaved wounds
Eversor charges, no Disarm Zar hits first, inflicting ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Eversor then goes nuts, with 8 attacks, ~2.66 hits, ~2.59 wounds, ~0.43 unsaved wounds
Honestly going through any more permutations is pointless. The Eversor dies pretty conclusively against Zar.
Alas, the Eversor temple is simply not up to the task of creating operatives that can kill Jain Zar. However, he does die very slowly, so an Eversor could be used as a sort of challenge-tarpit. Of course, your opponent could just deny the challenge (or accept it with an Exarch instead... though the Exarch will be so much meat before the Eversor, even with the debuffs).
Now for that soulless bastard, the Culexus!
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, and because of being forced to hit on 5's, will only manage ~0.51 unsaved wounds on the Culexus.
Culexus will have 4 attacks, hit on 3's, and inflict ~1.33 unsaved wounds on Zar.
Culexus charges Zar will strike first, putting ~0.51 unsaved wounds on the Culexus
Culexus will strike with 5 attacks, and inflict ~1.67 unsaved wounds on Zar. In 2-3 rounds of combat, Zar will die like a bitch
Zar charges Zar strikes first with 5 attacks, and put ~0.62 unsaved wounds on the Culexus
Culexus will put ~1.33 unsaved wounds onto Zar. Zar still dies like a bitch after 2-4 rounds of combat.
The Culexus numbers are refreshingly simple. And also very badass. So far the only thing that can equal/exceed a Culexus is Lelith Hesperax, but she's also more expensive and a unique character.
The Callidus is next:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar strikes first with 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1 unsaved wounds Callidus hits back with Phase Sword, for 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~0.83 wounds, ~0.83 unsaved wounds -OR- Callidus hits back with Poison Blades, for 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~1.11 wounds/~0.28 Rends, for ~0.47 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar strikes first with 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~2.5 wounds, ~1.25 unsaved wounds Callidus hits back, for either ~0.83 unsaved w/ Phase Sword, -OR- ~0.47 unsaved w/ Poison Blades
Callidus charges, no Disarm Zar strikes first, for ~1 unsaved wound inflicted
Callidus strikes back with 6 attacks and 2 hits; w/ Phase Sword, this is 1 unsaved wound, w/ Poison Blades, for ~0.55 unsaved wounds
Disarm conditions If Zar charges+Disarms, then she'll inflict ~1 unsaved wound on the Callidus, taking 0.47-0.83 unsaved wounds in return (depending on the weapon Disarmed)
If Zar is charged+Disarms, then she'll inflict ~0.75 unsaved wounds, for 0.55-1 unsaved wounds taken.
If Zar Disarms the Poison Blades every turn, the Callidus will do significant damage but probably fail to kill Zar. Otherwise, the Callidus dies while inflicting moderate damage. Zar will most likely survive the fight. Also, a Callidus isn't a good choice as a challenge-tarpit, as the main reason an Eversor could potentially be used that way is due to the combination of a 4++ and FNP.
Castellan Crowe, champion of humanity (or not?)
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, but only ~0.5 unsaved wounds due to Crowe's re-rollable 4++
Crowe will have 3 attacks, 1 hit, ~0.5 wounds, ~0.5 unsaved wounds
Locked in combat, Hammerhand active on Crowe Zar inflicts ~0.5 unsaved wounds
Crowe lands ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Locked in combat, Cleansing Flame activated Zar and Crowe mutually land ~0.5 unsaved wounds on each other from combat;
Cleansing Flame will average ~7 auto-hits @S5/AP4/Soul Blaze, for ~0.78 unsaved wounds
Crowe deals a total of ~1.28 unsaved wounds to Zar.
Zar charges Zar strikes with 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~2.51 wounds, ~0.63 unsaved wounds
Crowe deals 0.5-0.67 unsaved wounds, depending on whether or not he's cast Hammerhand (Zar will most likely not be in range of Cleansing Flame if she charges)
Crowe charges Crowe HoW's Zar for ~0.08 unsaved wounds
Zar deals ~0.5 unsaved wounds to Crowe before he swings
Crowe fights back with 4 attacks, ~1.33 hits, ~0.67 wounds
Total of ~0.75 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Hammerhand Crowe HoW does ~0.08 unsaved
Zar does ~0.5 unsaved
Crowe fights with 4 attacks, ~1.33 hits, ~0.89 unsaved wounds
Total of ~0.97 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Cleansing Flame HoW does ~0.08 unsaved
Zar does ~0.5 unsaved
Crowe inflicts ~0.67 unsaved
Cleansing Flame averages ~0.78 unsaved
Total of ~1.53 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Cleansing Flame and Hammerhand HoW deals ~0.08
Zar does ~0.5
Crowe inflicts ~0.89
Cleansing Flame does ~0.78
Total of ~1.75 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe can't be disarmed, as all he has is a single CCW; his AP2 comes from Smash. Due to a 4++ re-rollable save, he's fairly durable, but his 2W limits his tarpit-ness a good deal against Zar. If somebody is in Crowe's unit, has Sanctuary and manages to put it up, then Zar inflicts ~0.22-0.28 unsaved wounds. Crowe can certainly keep Zar held up for around 4 rounds of combat or so, which is pretty good and might be all the time you need. However, he heavily relies on his psychic powers to do damage, and if he wants a chance to kill Zar, he'll need a Librarian with Sanctuary to be part of his unit so that he can get a re-rollable 3++.
Now for some Chaos doods, starting with Lucius:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar has 3 attacks, 2 hits, ~1.5 wounds, and inflicts ~1 unsaved wound Lucius has 7 attacks, ~2.33 hits, ~1.75 wounds, ~0.29 unsaved wounds, plus ~0.25 unsaved wounds from his Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.54 unsaved wounds
Zar charges 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1.33 unsaved wounds Lucius fights back with ~0.29 unsaved wounds from basic combat and ~0.34 unsaved wounds from Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.63 unsaved wounds
Lucius charges Zar inflicts ~1 unsaved wounds
Lucius inflicts ~0.33 unsaved wounds from combat and ~0.25 unsaved from Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.57 unsaved wounds
Lucius Lash of Torment (-1A for an enemy in base contact), 5++, and Armor of Shrieking Souls (successful save inflicts an S4/AP2 hit on the attacker who inflicted the Wound that was saved against) make him durable in theory, but unfortunately he just can't stand up to her. Ultimately his main flaw in this matchup is a lack of AP2 in combat. S4/Shred doesn't take him very far, and the AP2 hits from his armor don't nearly make up for it, especially not against an opponent with AP3 or better combat weapons. Ironically this would make him very good at crushing a horde.
That swell guy Kharn:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar has 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1.34 unsaved wounds Kharn has 5 attacks, ~4.17 hits, ~2.78 wounds, ~2.78 unsaved wounds
Pretty much, if your opponent is either an idiot, or there is a remote possibility that Gorechild is ruled to be an artefact and not a weapon (very unlikely), then Kharn will absolutely demolish Jain Zar. He's also only 10 points more than Lelith Hesperax, and 20 more than a Culexus, both of which can handily kill Zar as well.
A Necron challenger appears! (Obyron)
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar swings 4 times, for ~2.67 hits, ~0.99 unsaved wounds Obyron swings 3 times, gets 1 hit, and ~0.83 unsaved wounds; + ~0.37 unsaved from "Cleaving Counterblow", for ~1.2 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar swings 5 times, ~3.34 hits, for ~1.23 unsaved wounds Obyron swings 3 times, for ~0.83 initial unsaved, + ~0.46 unsaved from Cleaving Counterblow, for ~1.29 unsaved wounds
Obyron charges, no Disarm Zar inflicts ~0.99 unsaved
Obyron gets 4 attacks, for ~1.11 initial unsaved, + ~0.37 unsaved from Cleaving Counterblow, for ~1.48 unsaved wounds
Obviously, if Obyron is disarmed, he's dead meat. However, if he isn't and he managed to charge, he's got a chance to actually take Zar down. This will go up if he can get a bonus to his RP.
Mephiston, aka vampire Thor
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar has 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~1.48 unsaved wounds Mephiston has 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~1.11 wounds, ~0.19 unsaved wounds
Zar charges Zar has 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~1.85 unsaved wounds Mephiston strikes back with ~0.19 unsaved wounds
Mephiston rolls & casts Iron Arm, Zar charges Zar cannot harm Mephiston, as he is now [youtube]T8
Mephiston will inflict ~1.39 unsaved wounds on Zar.
Mephiston rolls & casts Iron Arm, then gets the charge Zar cannot harm Mephiston due to T8
Mephiston inflicts ~1.67 unsaved wounds on Zar
If Mephiston rolls Iron Arm on the Biomancy table, then he can gain enough S/T that Zar can't hurt him, and he handily crushes her. A Nurgle Sorcerer with Iron Arm can do the same, though off-hand I don't recall how much that would cost. Note that Iron Arm can allow more "generic" Librarians to crush Jain Zar as well; Mephiston's main bonus is ML3, and S/T 5 at a base.
Now for the gribbly monstrosity, the Swarmlord:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, and inflict ~0.41 unsaved wounds Swarmlord will have 5 attacks, ~2.5 hits, and inflict ~2.08 unsaved wounds
Zar charges 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, and inflict ~0.51 unsaved wounds Swarmlord retaliates with ~2.08 unsaved wounds
Swarmlord charges Zar strikes first with ~0.41 unsaved wounds Swarmlord then hits with ~2.5 unsaved wounds
Disarming the Swarmlord would have little effect on the numbers; being S/T 6, and AP2 due to MC status, he handily squishes Jain Zar with minimal damage incurred. The catch is that he costs ~30% more than Jain Zar does, and isn't nearly as mobile.
As a general rule, it would seem that if you can get a combination of: high T, high invuln, AP2 via rules rather than weapons, and high attack numbers, you can punk Jain Zar. Some models do it way better than others- Lelith Hesperax, Culexus Assassins, MC-characters, and Iron Arm psykers are all examples.
However, of those, Hesperax and the Culexus would seem to be the most viable options. They're fairly inexpensive as beatstick characters go, and they're both nearly or absolutely guaranteed to kill Jain Zar. MC-characters are rare and also tend to be very expensive, whilst rolling Iron Arm on a psyker is no guarantee, unless you've got some ridiculous ML going on (anything that can get ML3+ is a fair possibility). The main issue that MC characters and Iron Arm psykers will face is the WS/I disparity, to the point that they'll need to be packing either high T (as in T6+) or a good invuln (4++ or better, preferably) in order to actually live through Jain Zar's attacks.
2015/05/11 01:07:58
Subject: Cheapest Character That Can Kill Jain Zar
I think the biggest takeaway from the Swarmlord (and Iron Arm Mephiston) numbers is that if you can get something that's T6 and has some kind of AP2 melee, then you're pretty much going to crush Jain Zar, it's just a matter of how long it'll take.
Zar's honestly pretty helpless against anything T6/7- she just can't hurt it very effectively. The catch is, I think, that your opponent will probably figure this out, and so Zar might not end up in combat with a MC-character anyways.
Whereas a Culexus or Lelith Hesperax are much more difficult to avoid; the former because of Infiltrate and the 12" moonwalk zone he sets up, and the latter due to the fast-moving assault transport options the DE have.
Solitaires are a bit of both, in that they have a 12" move, access to assault transports, and can optionally be fielded as part of a formation that confers Infiltrate.
Thinking more on MC-character models (assuming that the Greater Daemons all have the "character" rule), then honestly a Daemons army wouldn't have much trouble with Jain Zar- they rely mostly on invulnerable saves, rarely have an armor save, and the Greater Daemons are all very difficult for Zar to hurt in the first place.
The downside, of course, is that MC-characters are going to end up being enormous fire magnets, so YMMV.
2015/05/11 13:18:10
Subject: Cheapest Character That Can Kill Jain Zar
If a naked DP punks Jain Zar so easily, I would think any Greater Demon could.
It looks like 100pt custom Herald does it, or possibly some Ruststalker thing, provided its at least the second round of combat.
And then there's the simplistic Power Axe x2 CM who can do it even receiving the charge, although he costs 140pts.
The above options can punk her hard, but there are a lot of options that win.
Probably, the order of your options:
But the best way to kill her will be shooting.
Failing that, just overwhelm her. Bonus points if you can get rending or hidden power fists. If an Archon with Shadow field tanked her, would a Kalabite squad do her in?
Or have multiple characters. StormShield Captain takes the challenge while your Techmarine or Sarge kills her? Sarge eats the challenge while Smashfether smashes her?
If those options fail, there are a ton of options well below her price point that can do her in.
Failing that, big things like a naked DP, or Swarmy, or whatever will do a number on her.
2015/05/11 18:14:00
Subject: Cheapest Character That Can Kill Jain Zar
I didn't run numbers for a naked Prince, as I used the Swarmlord for the example. Swarmlord is an expensive beatstick and is limited in certain ways (invuln is CC-only, for example), but he's a good baseline for MC characters.
I don't know about the Daemon Heralds- I'd have to run some numbers on that, and probably the double Axe CM. A Ruststalker Princeps I'm doubtful about though- even with Doctrina Imperatives to get to WS7, Zar will just debuff down to WS2.
Multiple characters does work... but that's also not the cheapest option. Moreover, given that the OP stipulates "cheapest character" rather than "best way" to kill Zar, I'd say that there's an unspoken acknowledgement that yes, shooting Zar to death is better.
The biggest obstacles to overcome with Zar are the -5WS/-5I debuff, Disarming Strike, and the AP2 melee. MC-characters work because they have Smash by default, along with high(er) base Strength and especially Toughness that makes the WS debuff and AP2 melee fairly irrelevant- Zar will just have too much trouble actually hurting MCs most of the time.
Units like a Culexus or Hesperax get around it by gaining AP2 combat via a special rule, and relying almost totally on an invulnerable save. The Culexus also has its own fantastic debuff, whilst Hesperax has Leage Apart and a ludicrously high base WS. Solitaires are sort of a second-rate option, though that's not to disparage them.
It's just that a Solitaire's success is heavily weighted on what weapon is Disarmed, making him very chancy.
