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Wyldhunt wrote:
Cheapest? I'm going with a dark harlequin troupe master with the warlord trait that lets him auto kill someone that kills him in a challenge on a 4(?)+. You only get the trait 1/6th of the time (ignoring warlord trait rerolls), and even then, it only works half the time, so I'm losing points for reliability. That said, I just gave you 50/50 odds of taking out dear Jain at the low-low price of 35 points. ^_^

Rofl thats pretty funny. edit oh hang on a sec didnt they change removed from play to not effect EW?

Rocking in at 60 points, I'd like to say a Ruststalker Princeps

he has 4 CC weapons, one of which strike at I10 flat due to it's own rule, another two of which are AP2 on 6s to wound, and the fourth causes an auto-wound regardless of toughness at AP2 on a 6

He can also pop the +3 WS doctrine, which means after her debuff, he will still scrape hitting on 4s unless Jain is WS8 which I don't think she is (dependant on Zar's wording)

He also comes with a 4+ invun which means she tests to go blind after, and a FNP. Yes, not great odds to survive, but the sheer wait of his attacks should kill her due to her lack of an invun

I think...

 Desubot wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Cheapest? I'm going with a dark harlequin troupe master with the warlord trait that lets him auto kill someone that kills him in a challenge on a 4(?)+. You only get the trait 1/6th of the time (ignoring warlord trait rerolls), and even then, it only works half the time, so I'm losing points for reliability. That said, I just gave you 50/50 odds of taking out dear Jain at the low-low price of 35 points. ^_^

Rofl thats pretty funny. edit oh hang on a sec didnt they change removed from play to not effect EW?

Not that I'm aware of. I know that Insta-death doesn't work on EW, but I'm not sure about "removed as a casualty." Also, I checked. The Final Joke actually has slightly better than 50/50 odds of working. So assuming it can work at all, it has a better than 50% chance of taking out about 6 times its points.

@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.

If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.

A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.

A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?

 luky7dayz wrote:
If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.

A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?

Ah, but how many of those beat the record-holder at 100 or 130 points (whichever we landed on)? Pretty sure Bjorn is closer to 200 than 100. The commisar is cheap, but he shouldn't be winning that fight regardless of what the Black Library novels tell you.

Pretty sure Bjorn is a no go since unhurtable.

A captain with 2xPower Axes would be very close, but not quite.

But its well over the current 100pt winner.

I think a CM with 2 axes would do it:
JZ- 4x(2/3)(3/4)(1/2) = 1 wound/round
CM- 5x(1/3)(2/3)(1) = 10/9 wounds/round

CM strikes second, but has 4 wounds to JZ's 3.

@Bharring: She'll actually probably have 4 or 5 attacks. She only has 3 if she's not charging and is using disarm. If the person she's fighting has doubles of their special weapon (like your CM with 2 axes), it's probably better to let them keep the second axe thus giving both the CM and herself +1 attack. It only gives the CM a 1/6 chance of wounding her (5+ to hit, 4+ to wound unless axes are +1 strength), but each of her attacks brings her that much closer to killing him before he strikes.

A single Canoptek Wraith with no whip coils.

Axes are +1S.

And I assumed neither counted as charging.


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Even with the additional attack, shed need 4 rounds to have an EV of 4 wounds done. He needs 3. So he'd still win.

He's still 140 I think? So doesn't beat the 100pt option upthread.

On average, she's killing a Wraith in 3 turns, whereas it would take a Wraith 8 turns to kill her.

ML 1 Chaos Sorceror with Force weapon, Power weapon and Aura of Dark Glory who has rolled Iron Arm will kill her, but it'll take forever.

Hits on 5's with 2 attacks/round, wounds on 2's, no saves.
2 * 2/6 * 5/6 = .555 wounds/round (5.4 rounds to kill)

JZ hits on 3's with 4 attacks/round, wounds on 6's, saves on 5++
4 * 4/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 = .296 wounds/round (6.75 rounds to kill)

Only 90 points, but relies on rolling iron arm, so only works 1/6th of the time. Add more ML's for better chance of rolling IA and sigil for better defence, but those all cost more points.

Bharring wrote:
Axes are +1S.

And I assumed neither counted as charging.


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Even with the additional attack, shed need 4 rounds to have an EV of 4 wounds done. He needs 3. So he'd still win.

He's still 140 I think? So doesn't beat the 100pt option upthread.

Ah. Yep. That works out more in the CM's favor then. Still going to be a close fight though!

On an unrelated note, Jain is pretty noncompetitive because her abilities don't suit the current state of the game. If melee blobs ever become the meta again though, she's pretty beastly.

According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.

In a Wraith unit, it'll be too expensive per model.

In a non-Wraith unit, t3 is going to die by the bucketful (she's T4, but majority T will be 3).

Shell probably be beastly but fun in casual games. And get shot off the table.

Yeah, shooting will do her in super quick.

Wyldhunt wrote:


@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.

On the first turn it takes a 6 to be AP2
On every turn after that all attacks are AP2

 Exergy wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.

On the first turn it takes a 6 to be AP2
On every turn after that all attacks are AP2

Oh, I'm far from certain on the math involved, but it's doable I think.

It's also possible to get Zealot for another 10(?) points, which puts the Ruststalker at 70 points, which could also tip the scale a little more toward him.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
On an unrelated note, Jain is pretty noncompetitive because her abilities don't suit the current state of the game. If melee blobs ever become the meta again though, she's pretty beastly.

According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.

Wouldn't it be crazy if stuff started having 6-7 CC attacks standard and pseudo-rending or AP2?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.

Well, Berzerkers are also rather terrible, so it's not all that impressive.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A DK would be hitting on 5's, her ability makes him WS1. :p

I believe it would still win though.

IH Smashfucker sounds pretty badass. How much does he cost?

Chapter Master Smashf**ker is about 260 points IIRC, and he is definitely an expensive face wrecking machine. He has issues against certain IC's that have eternal warrior though, you should check 1d4chan for specifics on that.

I have never used him before just observed, read, and heard some craziness ensue.

If you got an Iron Hands or space marine army that can fit him, and you can afford the points, and you absolutely want that character dead as dead can be, then give it a shot.

There are many many many cheaper choices though. This guy even with codex update makes sure Abaddon keeps the nickname "Failbaddon the Armless."

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bibotot wrote:
The Nemesis Dreadknight with the Sword is on par with Jain Zar. 140 points.

Jain Zar wounds him about 1 per turn. Dreadknight about 1 in first turn and 1-2 in the next.

How about the Solitaire? 135 points.

Why even take the sword? Save yourself some points.

I rather doubt that a Solitaire can take Jain Zar. He simply doesn't have any weapons that can do enough damage. Both of the CCWs that he carries are AP2; whilst one is basically Rending, the other is a separate S6/AP2 attack that is rolled separately.

One of those will be remove by Jain Zar (due to Disarm), and he'll have to strike at WS4/I5 instead of his usual WS9/I10. Solitaires are, quite frankly, not very good for killing characters with exceptional saves. TBH, I'd say that a Solitaire is there to positively mulch a horde more than anything else.

Not sure if mentioned but a Solitaire could put up a fight,

Wouldn't Lukas the Trickster last laugh ability count? Sure he'll be dead to but so would she if she fails the roll off. All for 80 pts.

Actually any MC character has an excellent chance to kill Jain Zar.

I think the nurgle herald will probably be about as cheap as it gets and still be talking a an easy win.

The most popular character build that could punk jain zar is the double powerfist nurgle chaos lord on bike.

I am going to put forward any character with the caveat his unit wipes the other unit so their extra attacks go on Jain Zar. Realistically this is probably going to also be the most common method to kill her "in a challenge" as well. Sooo...Deathwing Knights Sarge!

BTW berzerker blobbs are bully units. They cannot hold their own against any pretty much any melee specialist unit their points value due to their poor AP weapons, lowish strength, and poor durability.

yeah, I'm still going with Solitaire with Cegorach's rose. 160pts. 3+ invuln. Take away the caress or the Rose, but not both. WS 9, I 10, 6A (unless he blitzes, then it's 10). Jain Zar still hitting 1st on 3's but with only 3 attacks.

so forgetting Blitz, or anyone charging (changes things for both, although more likely solitaire would be charging), Zar will only get .44 wounds total. Solitaire striking 2nd, 6 attacks (because 2nd melee weapon not usable).
If using caress (so Rose is gone). 1.38 wounds for the Solitaire. If caress taken away and using Rose, it's 2.35 wounds for the Solitaire. Either way, the Sol comes out on top.

edit: although I know the first number is not exactly right as I don't know the exact odds of rolling at least 1 6, or multiple 6s. The 1.38 is calculated with 1 6 showing up in the 6 attacks. Of course, he could fail to roll a 6 or he could roll, 2, 3, 4 etc. each 6 rolled is an auto wound on Zar. Either way, the odds are still stacked highly in the Solitaire's favour. I also screwed up the Kiss's numbers (it's only 1 attack) but it's still greater than Zar (.86 wounds I think, still twice as good as Zar)

 Frozocrone wrote:
Not sure if mentioned but a Solitaire could put up a fight,

Not really, and not for very long. Jain Zar will have a wounding rate of ~88% for each successful hit, versus the Solitaire's ~33% woundrate for each successful hit.

More or less, Jain Zar will wound the Solitaire with 9/10 hits, versus only 3/10 hits for the Solitaire. IIRC the Solitaire gets more Attacks, but still only S3/AP-, with either pseudo-rending or a bonus S6/AP2 attack. The 3++/3W of the Solitaire will hold Jain Zar up for a few rounds of combat, but not many.

Maybe if you got several Solitaires to try and swamp her, or go for a debuff via Shadowseers. One of the Phantasmancy powers, for example, forces an enemy unit to only hit on 6's in combat (!). Solitaires will be WS4 (Zar's debuff) versus Zar's natural WS7, so have to hit on 4+, but if you could cast Fog of Dreams onto Zar, then a Solitaire might be able to punk her. TBH I'd actually say that you'd have better luck pitting an Eversor against Zar in that situation (Zar under Fog of Dreams), as the drug-fueled psychotic-walking-apocalypse has enough attacks (and IIRC one is 2+ Poison) to crush her, even when taking the penalties of -5 WS/I. Of course, if you do that then there's not much reason to not just throw a Culexus at her instead, so....*

 ansacs wrote:
Actually any MC character has an excellent chance to kill Jain Zar.

I think the nurgle herald will probably be about as cheap as it gets and still be talking a an easy win.

The most popular character build that could punk jain zar is the double powerfist nurgle chaos lord on bike.

I am going to put forward any character with the caveat his unit wipes the other unit so their extra attacks go on Jain Zar. Realistically this is probably going to also be the most common method to kill her "in a challenge" as well. Sooo...Deathwing Knights Sarge!

BTW berzerker blobbs are bully units. They cannot hold their own against any pretty much any melee specialist unit their points value due to their poor AP weapons, lowish strength, and poor durability.

WRT MC characters, it's a cost issue. Dreadknights are about the only thing that is both a MC, a character, and relatively cheap (particularly compared to Zar), that fit the bill. Honestly, I think that at this point the best options for killing Zar in combat are going to be to either sic a Culexus on her, or roll Hero's Path and an Eversor and try and roll Fog of Dreams to punk her with the Solitaire+Eversor working together (Solitaire rips apart Zar's squad, Eversor rips apart Zar).

*Vindicare Assassins are poor against multi-wound characters in general, whilst a Callidus will just be disarmed, as it has an AP2 combat weapon that can actually hurt Zar (as opposed to the pseudo-Rending and AP3-or-poorer weapons of a Solitaire/Eversor).

Incidentally, Lelith Hesperax with FC might do it- she can ignore armor by dint of a special rule rather than a weapon, and gets re-rolls for To-Hit/-Wound. Hesperax even has a 3++ in combat, negating the majority of damage that Zar can do with S4/AP2/Shred. Oh, and much like a Culexus, she can't be disarmed.

bullyboy wrote:
yeah, I'm still going with Solitaire with Cegorach's rose. 160pts. 3+ invuln. Take away the caress or the Rose, but not both. WS 9, I 10, 6A (unless he blitzes, then it's 10). Jain Zar still hitting 1st on 3's but with only 3 attacks.

so forgetting Blitz, or anyone charging (changes things for both, although more likely solitaire would be charging), Zar will only get .44 wounds total. Solitaire striking 2nd, 6 attacks (because 2nd melee weapon not usable).
If using caress (so Rose is gone). 1.38 wounds for the Solitaire. If caress taken away and using Rose, it's 2.35 wounds for the Solitaire. Either way, the Sol comes out on top.

edit: although I know the first number is not exactly right as I don't know the exact odds of rolling at least 1 6, or multiple 6s. The 1.38 is calculated with 1 6 showing up in the 6 attacks. Of course, he could fail to roll a 6 or he could roll, 2, 3, 4 etc. each 6 rolled is an auto wound on Zar. Either way, the odds are still stacked highly in the Solitaire's favour.

Culexus still does it better, because Etherium means Zar has to fit at WS1 vs the Cul's WS3, meaning she'll hit on 5's and he'll be hitting on 3's. He also can't be disarmed at all, and is a great way to also counter psykers and even Invisistars. Oh, and a Culexus also costs only 145 points and has native Infiltrate, versus the 160 points of the Solitaire.

you're off on your numbers whiskey, solitaire tops zar for wounds. zar has 4 attacks base, 3 if she uses her Disarming Strike rule. She'll hit the Solitaire on 3's, wound on 3's, and the sol saves on 3's. she only wounds him .444 each round of combat. The Solitaire with Cegorach's Rose dishes out more wounds due to the special weapons (can't remove both, only one. The Caress will put an auto wound on any 6. The Rose is almost an auto wound due to Master Crafted and Shred.