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 Peregrine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Exalted for truth. People act like communicating with you opponent over what kind of game you want (outside of a tournament setting) is this impossible task.

It isn't impossible, but it shouldn't be necessary. Other games don't require this pre-game negotiation between players, and the only reason 40k does is that GW is hopelessly incompetent at writing rules and doesn't care.

This. The rules in 40k are worse than any other TT game I have ever played. I play close to 20+ different board games a year, numerous video games etc & I can't think of a single instance where I have to sit down with my opponent for hours negotiating what should/should not be considered legal/acceptable. Sure its not as much of an issue if you play in your garage with a group of buddies you play with on a regular basis but good luck playing a pickup game at a FLGS or entering a tournament.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

*looks at sig
You realize that's an Eldar player, right? You really think you should take them seriously on this matter?

This attitude is becoming trite. GW changes Eldar in a way that is percieved as OP, and what do players do? Do they get upset at GW for terrible rules writing and refuse to buy any of their OTHER models until they make it right? No, of course not. Instead, they start an internet trope where every Eldar player is a terrible, evil person who's opinions don't matter. They villify every person who ever bought an Eldar model prior to that, as if all such people should have known GW was going to do this. (Hint: Eldar players PLAY farseers, that doesn't mean they ARE farseers.)

Now, some people recognize this for what it is: Bull Excrement. But, the dumb ones don't. They buy into the hype about how OP everything is, even when they've never faced the new rules themselves, and they buy into the fact that Eldar players are the worst people on the planet. They perpetuate the fallacy with a fanaticism and religious zeal that can only be born of ignorance, recruiting even more dumb people to their cause until the sound of reason is drowned out amongst a sea of shouting stupidity. Now, GW is vindicated, and it's widely accepted that Eldar players are the scum of the earth. Heil GW! Heil the Imperium! Root out the Eldar player scum. Do not hide them. They are not people. They're a plague on society, and must be purged.




EDIT: My faith in the people of this place to pick up on references, and see the ridiculousness of this situation in order to enact change is probably misplaced, but here it is, all the same.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

This attitude is becoming trite. GW changes Eldar in a way that is percieved as OP, and what do players do? Do they get upset at GW for terrible rules writing and refuse to buy any of their OTHER models until they make it right? No, of course not. Instead, they start an internet trope where every Eldar player is a terrible, evil person who's opinions don't matter. They villify every person who ever bought an Eldar model prior to that, as if all such people should have known GW was going to do this. (Hint: Eldar players PLAY farseers, that doesn't mean they ARE farseers.)

I agree. It's the same reason I get fed up with the argument about it bad rules somehow being the player's fault for taking broken stuff.

That being said, when Eldar players (or anyone else with a strong book, for that matter) adopts a general "I've got mine so screw you." attitude, they really don't help themselves.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
*looks at sig
You realize that's an Eldar player, right? You really think you should take them seriously on this matter?

Not saying I agree with the poster in question, either, but seriously, people like you are what's wrong with 40k. As noted above, GW are the ones who put out the rules, they are the ones that made Eldar better than everyone else (with no explanation or reason), and what do people like you do? Demonize the Eldar players for something completely out of their control, perpetuating the idea that they're all just bad people regardless of how long they've been playing Eldar or even what their lists look like, and then continue happily buying Spehss Mahreens from GW and rewarding them for their feth-ups.

This attitude cropped up around the time the new Tau codex dropped, too, and it killed what little interest I had in playing the game. You have any idea how much of a fething downer it is when you go online and see nothing but rampant hate for your army, and by extension, you? And all for something you had no say in? No one cares, though, because "Yay, one less OP Tau player! GOOD RIDDANCE!"...

Virtually every army-player gets hate SOMEWHERE though.

Anyone playing any branch of the IoM gets hated on just for having the POSSIBILITY of buying other IoM armies to abuse the ally mechanics, even though that seems to be exceedingly rare as far as I've seen.
(According to the internet, I have thousands of dollars of admech, skitarii, knights, AM, sisters, and other marine chapters hidden somewhere in my house. I've looked for them, but have only found my blood angel models. Even checked under the couch.)

It's not at all the same, though. The "hate" for IoM armies seems awful tame from what I've seen, more like gentle ribbing, most of which is aimed at Space Marines and it's almost entirely because of how popular they are more than anything else. You never see the kind of crap you see in regards to xenos armies, like people making thread after thread calling for Marine armies to be "banned" or constantly arguing about how Marines don't even have a right to exist. Worst thing Marine players have to deal with is the occasional comment about how there are too many Marine books and it would be better if they were all contained within a single book instead, which isn't really the same as removing an army from the game (no matter how much Black Templars players want you to think it is), and it's actually TRUE, because it would mean all Marines are consistently kept up to date instead of having many different books all with different rules, wargear, and design philosophies behind each one, which is the number one complaint from Marine players themselves it would seem. Not quite the same thing as a loud chorus of people constantly calling for your army to we wiped out and removed from the game simply because they don't like it, while arguing that it would be better for the game as a whole when there's nothing to really back that up at all. What xenos armies and people who play them get is legit, seething hate, and it's incredibly off-putting while being just plain disturbing to witness sometimes. I simply can't fathom how anyone can take any game that seriously, let alone 40k in particular.

I have zero problems with Eldar players or with anyone for playing any faction. The only exception might be someone playing with a buddy who picks Daemons choosing GK because he knows they stomp daemons.

What I hate is people who, when given the choice, choose to create an army that they know will always beat their opponent/the people they generally play. When it costs you NOTHING to not do it, I will judge you for playing Scatterbikes, or the new SM Skyhammer thing, if you're using it and you always win against your regular opponents.

People who aim to stomp are scum, and no amount of "muh competitive game" arguments will convince me otherwise. Because 40k takes time and money and telling someone to "adapt" when your units suddenly get super strong rules for free and you have the collection to weaken your list down is telling them they have to spend hundreds of dollars and hours painting and buying new gak because you want to always win.

Enter beady eyes and the wringing of hands?

"Mwa ha ha. Pinned or no overwatch + 1st turn charges? I'll never lose!"

For my part, it's simple. I'll ask opponents who play marines to please NOT bring an extra 400 points of free razors to kick the crap out of my chaos cult.

I'll ask TO's to ban formations that gives points for free.

If either answer is no, I just won't play. It's not hard to get along. Some people feel like not playing a game is punishing themselves somehow, that they deserve to play in every tournament they can afford, but that just isn't the case with how diverse 40k has become.

Some people like the new stuff, some hate it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
It's not at all the same, though. The "hate" for IoM armies seems awful tame from what I've seen

Most IoM armies don't have ludicrously overpowered abilities/weapons once restricted purely to the most powerful apocalypse units, and most don't have anything particularly outrageously scary outside of some allies shennanigans (Gravcents aside, which do get complaints), which is a core rulebook issue, not an army issue.

We're very definitely starting to see some concerns and open complaints with regards to some of the new Space Marine formations however.

the_scotsman wrote:
Because it's looking like that's what's needed

1 chaplain, 1 captain, 6 TAC squads, 2 dev squads, and 2 assault squads gets you 10 free razorbacks in the new codex.

Oh and they get the new company tactical doctrines

And new buffed chapter tactics

And everything gets objective secured.

Can't wait to play against this with my orks, my 2000 point army against 2000+1250 points of free razorbacks.

You whine alot.

I love it when GW apologists dismiss someone pointing out the facts as "whining".

I don't understand the logic where free stuff = "it's ok because you pay tax". Pre-this nonsense if we agreed to have a limit at e.g. 1500 pts we did not allow someone to enter with 1505 because they wanted to squeeze in that power fist without getting rid of anything. Now it's much worse. In essence it is 1500 pts plus these free units and upgrades. Why come up with a points mechanism if no one needs to follow it?

Naw wrote:
I don't understand the logic where free stuff = "it's ok because you pay tax". Pre-this nonsense if we agreed to have a limit at e.g. 1500 pts we did not allow someone to enter with 1505 because they wanted to squeeze in that power fist without getting rid of anything. Now it's much worse. In essence it is 1500 pts plus these free units and upgrades. Why come up with a points mechanism if no one needs to follow it?

You've hit the nail on the head.

The "tax" is also suspect, it's a highly subjective valuation, and there are absolutely formations that have no sort of "tax" that anyone can reasonably point to. Ultimately, saying a formation has a "tax" because you have to take X is ignoring that X fundamentally has value (even if it's overvalued), and benefits from the formation rules, it's not worthless, it's just not as "optimal" as some might otherwise might want it to be. That's not a "tax".

The idea that 1500pts isn't necessarily 1500pts is very certainly causing significant problems and rumblings with many players at this point.

General Hobbs wrote:


You whine alot.

Please remember Rule #1.

Naw wrote:
I don't understand the logic where free stuff = "it's ok because you pay tax". Pre-this nonsense if we agreed to have a limit at e.g. 1500 pts we did not allow someone to enter with 1505 because they wanted to squeeze in that power fist without getting rid of anything. Now it's much worse. In essence it is 1500 pts plus these free units and upgrades. Why come up with a points mechanism if no one needs to follow it?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I wonder if one day a 1500pt army of 9th edition 40k will be equivalent to a 2500pt army in 7th...

As far as the hatred aimed at a fair amount of eldar Players? Well, I for one have played several games against Eldar players and my opponent in all but two games was a genuinely nice guy and I greatly enjoyed the game....even though he tabled me.

I hate on certain Eldar players who come here in the forums and try and defend the new Eldar Codex saying things such as "its balanced" or "Its not OP" or my personal favorite "The WK isn't even that good" . When you try to downplay how amazingly broken GW made your codex to make yourself feel better about taking those broken units then I get upset. I had a game planned but had to cancel (ER Visit for daughter) where my eldar buddy was going to bring his 1,500 tourney list and told me to bring 2,500pts of orks and see if I could win. I wish I could have played so I could have shown you all the results, and because that would mean I didn't have to spend the day with my child in the ER :(

*SIDE NOTE: To those who care she is doing better now and should be well in a week or so

 Accolade wrote:

Naw wrote:
I don't understand the logic where free stuff = "it's ok because you pay tax". Pre-this nonsense if we agreed to have a limit at e.g. 1500 pts we did not allow someone to enter with 1505 because they wanted to squeeze in that power fist without getting rid of anything. Now it's much worse. In essence it is 1500 pts plus these free units and upgrades. Why come up with a points mechanism if no one needs to follow it?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I wonder if one day a 1500pt army of 9th edition 40k will be equivalent to a 2500pt army in 7th...

Really, let's look at the free stuff that's currently available out there for armies:

Eldar-Free Guardian Defender weapon platforms. Basically a free weapon from the standard list of Eldar heavy weapons. Nothing too bad there.
Mechanicus: Free wargear upgrades and relics, subject to normal restrictions. Before you complain, I invite you to look up the relics for Knights/Skitarii/Mechanicus. Some aren't worth being free.
Spess Muhreens: Free Rhinos/Razorbacks/Drop Pods. Very nasty. Gives you lots of flexibility on the table, but none in list building. Also, everything is easy to kill.
Tyranids: Free gaunts. Honestly, gaunts needed the boost. Are just as easy to kill as gaunts people paid for.
Everyone: Free Daemons. Believe it or not, RAW says this is still the case. Ye olde Daemon Factory is the strongest of the bunch. Just ask last year's Adepticon GT players.

Yes, there is an argument to be made that free stuff violates the principle of agreeing to a points limit. But if you look at what people are and have been getting for free, there's not a whole lot to complain about. I myself would avoid the nasty ones, but everything else is relatively balanced.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
*looks at sig
You realize that's an Eldar player, right? You really think you should take them seriously on this matter?

Not saying I agree with the poster in question, either, but seriously, people like you are what's wrong with 40k. As noted above, GW are the ones who put out the rules, they are the ones that made Eldar better than everyone else (with no explanation or reason), and what do people like you do? Demonize the Eldar players for something completely out of their control, perpetuating the idea that they're all just bad people regardless of how long they've been playing Eldar

Generally I agree with this sentiment.

But.. you do realize what the Eldar player in question here was doing, right? They said that Orks (and other armies) should be second rate and not have much of a shot at winning, because in the fluff they're just the comic relief B-villain that always gets steam rolled / used by someone else and never accomplishes anything.

.. In this instance, I think the whole "You realize that's an eldar player, right?" thing is wholly justified, and right on the money.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
*looks at sig
You realize that's an Eldar player, right? You really think you should take them seriously on this matter?

Not saying I agree with the poster in question, either, but seriously, people like you are what's wrong with 40k. As noted above, GW are the ones who put out the rules, they are the ones that made Eldar better than everyone else (with no explanation or reason), and what do people like you do? Demonize the Eldar players for something completely out of their control, perpetuating the idea that they're all just bad people regardless of how long they've been playing Eldar

Generally I agree with this sentiment.

But.. you do realize what the Eldar player in question here was doing, right? They said that Orks (and other armies) should be second rate and not have much of a shot at winning, because in the fluff they're just the comic relief B-villain that always gets steam rolled / used by someone else and never accomplishes anything.

.. In this instance, I think the whole "You realize that's an eldar player, right?" thing is wholly justified, and right on the money.

The Eldar players who have adopted a "haters gonna hate, I'll play what GW lets me, you just need to l2p and stop being jelly" attitude aren't helping anybody. There's a reason there have been a flurry of TO rulings and FAQs lately, and it's not because they're bored.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
*looks at sig
You realize that's an Eldar player, right? You really think you should take them seriously on this matter?

Not saying I agree with the poster in question, either, but seriously, people like you are what's wrong with 40k. As noted above, GW are the ones who put out the rules, they are the ones that made Eldar better than everyone else (with no explanation or reason), and what do people like you do? Demonize the Eldar players for something completely out of their control, perpetuating the idea that they're all just bad people regardless of how long they've been playing Eldar

Generally I agree with this sentiment.

But.. you do realize what the Eldar player in question here was doing, right? They said that Orks (and other armies) should be second rate and not have much of a shot at winning, because in the fluff they're just the comic relief B-villain that always gets steam rolled / used by someone else and never accomplishes anything.

.. In this instance, I think the whole "You realize that's an eldar player, right?" thing is wholly justified, and right on the money.

Yeah, arguing that some armies should be second rate "because fluff" is fething stupid, hence why I said I didn't agree with the player in question, but that's still a bullgak attitude that's wrong the other 9 out of 10 times you see it, and I don't think being right in this one instance makes a difference.

Naw wrote:
I don't understand the logic where free stuff = "it's ok because you pay tax". Pre-this nonsense if we agreed to have a limit at e.g. 1500 pts we did not allow someone to enter with 1505 because they wanted to squeeze in that power fist without getting rid of anything. Now it's much worse. In essence it is 1500 pts plus these free units and upgrades. Why come up with a points mechanism if no one needs to follow it?

Points have been largely meaningless for quite a while before GW started to hand out free stuff with formations.

It's not like let's say 500 points of Land Speeders were anyway near 500 pointsof Grav Bikes power wise.

Played 40k this weekend, and we talked about Skyhammer and formations in general over pizza.

The consensus, surprisingly, is we talked ourselves into liking the way they buffed assault and devastator marines. Here's the thought process.

If GW simply makes units better -- like assault or devastator squads -- then what invariably ends up happening is that people end up spamming them. Even if you're not a spammy player, you see that unit A is better than unit B, therefore you take more of A and less or none of B. Hence Centurions.

By giving units free stuff (like Company), or powerful buffs (like Skyhammer), you restrict the spam level of armies, while having useful and powerful units. If you had asked me two weeks ago, I would have said, "Give devastators relentless, because they suck without it and I'm gonna use Centurions". Enter Skyhammer, all the sudden, I'm looking at Devastators -- but in addition to, not to the exclusion of, Centurions.

Now, I know some of you don't like the "well it follows the fluff" argument, but there are also some of us players that don't like 40k just being a game of 1850 points, pick the best, fight. Doing powerful formations and finding synergies between formations and allies is just way more interesting than "fight my 4 imperial knights" and "fight my 7 wave serpents" and "kill my CentStar". It's a bonus when these formations follow iconic attacks that you imagine the armies to in, such as Angel's Fury, or Skyhammer. Or Seer Council, or Wraith Host.

To look at it the other way, it was sucky that you couldn't play ASM and Dev squads with any effectiveness before, certainly not in the way they're described in fluff.

For us, formations, decurion, and war host has actually revived a lot of more random, less scenario-based play, because a whole new depth of synergy is possible compared to CAD. Now, all this with a caveat -- most of us have so many models that when a cool formation comes out, we don't really need to buy anything. At most, it's usually playing with the odd model that was painted a different color scheme.

Although I confess, I don't have 10 razorbacks.

In a store where all our games are maelstrom of war, I don't care what kind of units you are forced to take, getting free points in actual models on that kind of scale is bs.

I don't mind power imbalance from army to army so much, when everyone is more or less either 2 or 3 points over or undercosted, and spamming is the main issue. I know when I go to plop my 1500 points of csm down vs his or her shiny new codex, I'm at a disadvantage. But when you take and get rid of the one semi restricting factor, a points limit agreed to by both players, that's where I have to be the jerk telling the space marine guy that if he's not paying for his razorbacks, I'm not playing him at all.

In a pick up game, whatever. There's other people to play. As soon as I have to start seeing this in tournaments, I'm going to get mad and stop giving my flgs my money on Sundays because I don't want to play with two disadvantages while paying money to boot.

I find it incredibly weird that people are complaining about 1500 points not being 1500 points anymore just because you get things that are easy to measure in points because it exists as something you buy, but if you get something that you can't quite put a number on, like +1 RP army wide, that's not considered an increase in army value?

It's the exact same thing.
Increasing army value is nothing new. And to be honest, the marine version of it isn't very good. It seems made entirely to sell models, because it sure isn't going to win them games against any other post-Necron codex.

Wouldn't you rather have had, say, togglabe skyfire on all razorbacks you bring in the formation, rather than free razorbacks?

To me, that would be a better and more flavourful bonus, but it wouldn't sell any additional models.

 Purifier wrote:
I find it incredibly weird that people are complaining about 1500 points not being 1500 points anymore just because you get things that are easy to measure in points because it exists as something you buy, but if you get something that you can't quite put a number on, like +1 RP army wide, that's not considered an increase in army value?

It's the exact same thing.
Increasing army value is nothing new. And to be honest, the marine version of it isn't very good. It seems made entirely to sell models, because it sure isn't going to win them games against any other post-Necron codex.

Wouldn't you rather have had, say, togglabe skyfire on all razorbacks you bring in the formation, rather than free razorbacks?

To me, that would be a better and more flavourful bonus, but it wouldn't sell any additional models.

It is NOT the exact same thing.

Reanimation Protocols make existing units better, not add additional units to the board. RP aren't going to go claim an objective at the end of a turn, though they might help a unit the Necrons already paid for hold one. Special rules valuation is one thing, and it arguably is part of what goes into deciding a units base cost. The other guy getting 10 extra vehicles that are objective secured is ridiculous, even if every anti AV shot I have goes into killing them, that's a turn of wasted AV on points he didn't pay for, and even assuming the dice gods basically have sex with my rolls and I blow up every transport in one turn, it's a turn of shooting at distraction carnifex that WILL WIN HIM A GAME BY NOMMING OBJECTIVES if I don't deal with them. Codex imbalance meaning an uphill battle is one thing, the other guy getting (many)free units is a complete other barrel of fish.

I don't see how people who don't play marines don't have a problem with this.

 Purifier wrote:
I find it incredibly weird that people are complaining about 1500 points not being 1500 points anymore just because you get things that are easy to measure in points because it exists as something you buy, but if you get something that you can't quite put a number on, like +1 RP army wide, that's not considered an increase in army value?

Well, one difference is that the value of +1RP in exchange for Objective Secured and less freedom in building your army is hard to quantify.

In contrast, getting free gear is very easy to quantify - because, at the very least, you know the exact value of the gear you're getting for free. And, in many cases, it's a lot.

If you could buy different levels of RP, and the Decurion gave you 4+ for free, then it would be a lot easier to calculate its exact value.


Furthermore, your comment seems disingenuous to begin with. Whilst it's true that few/no people have commented on the Decurion as 'free stuff', many, many people have called it out as being OP - which typically amounts to the same thing. My point being that whilst the Decurion bonus is less quantifiable, its impact has hardly gone unnoticed.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

It is NOT the exact same thing.

Reanimation Protocols make existing units better, not add additional units to the board. RP aren't going to go claim an objective at the end of a turn, though they might help a unit the Necrons already paid for hold one. Special rules valuation is one thing, and it arguably is part of what goes into deciding a units base cost. The other guy getting 10 extra vehicles that are objective secured is ridiculous, even if every anti AV shot I have goes into killing them, that's a turn of wasted AV on points he didn't pay for, and even assuming the dice gods basically have sex with my rolls and I blow up every transport in one turn, it's a turn of shooting at distraction carnifex that WILL WIN HIM A GAME BY NOMMING OBJECTIVES if I don't deal with them. Codex imbalance meaning an uphill battle is one thing, the other guy getting (many)free units is a complete other barrel of fish.

I don't see how people who don't play marines don't have a problem with this.

By this logic, you'd rather play against Skyhammer, which gives buffs, than Company, which gives free transports.

It's exactly the same thing. Value is value. It doesn't matter if they get free transports, extra wounds, double points on objectives, free rerolls to all wound, free FNP, or Ignore Cover on all your weapons. What's happening is, you take a restrictive list (a penalty) and are rewarded with a something special of value (a bonus). Whether the restrictions are worth the freebies is the issue.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I find it incredibly weird that people are complaining about 1500 points not being 1500 points anymore just because you get things that are easy to measure in points because it exists as something you buy, but if you get something that you can't quite put a number on, like +1 RP army wide, that's not considered an increase in army value?

It's the exact same thing.
Increasing army value is nothing new. And to be honest, the marine version of it isn't very good. It seems made entirely to sell models, because it sure isn't going to win them games against any other post-Necron codex.

Wouldn't you rather have had, say, togglabe skyfire on all razorbacks you bring in the formation, rather than free razorbacks?

To me, that would be a better and more flavourful bonus, but it wouldn't sell any additional models.

It is NOT the exact same thing.

Reanimation Protocols make existing units better, not add additional units to the board. RP aren't going to go claim an objective at the end of a turn, though they might help a unit the Necrons already paid for hold one. Special rules valuation is one thing, and it arguably is part of what goes into deciding a units base cost. The other guy getting 10 extra vehicles that are objective secured is ridiculous, even if every anti AV shot I have goes into killing them, that's a turn of wasted AV on points he didn't pay for, and even assuming the dice gods basically have sex with my rolls and I blow up every transport in one turn, it's a turn of shooting at distraction carnifex that WILL WIN HIM A GAME BY NOMMING OBJECTIVES if I don't deal with them. Codex imbalance meaning an uphill battle is one thing, the other guy getting (many)free units is a complete other barrel of fish.

I don't see how people who don't play marines don't have a problem with this.

I disagree. I think they are the same thing. Any free points OR free bonuses anywhere in the army CAN lead to "free" models.

Using a decurion as an example: instead of grabbing a cryptek or orb of eternity of a lychguard deathstar, I can just save points because they're in a decurion. They are already getting the benefit of having a cryptek/relic in the squad for no cost, other than opportunity cost of building a decurion. Since I'm now okay with the squad's durability without a cryptek, I can use the points I would have spent on the cryptek on something else. Thus: free points.

That bonus to RP means that each of the necron units is up in durability, which means they take more firepower to bring down, which means the opponent has less firepower elsewhere.

Every effect, ability, and model in the game is worth points. Some of them may not have a point value assigned, but that doesn't stop them from being worth something.

 Talys wrote:
Played 40k this weekend, and we talked about Skyhammer and formations in general over pizza.

The consensus, surprisingly, is we talked ourselves into liking the way they buffed assault and devastator marines. Here's the thought process.

If GW simply makes units better -- like assault or devastator squads -- then what invariably ends up happening is that people end up spamming them. Even if you're not a spammy player, you see that unit A is better than unit B, therefore you take more of A and less or none of B. Hence Centurions.

By giving units free stuff (like Company), or powerful buffs (like Skyhammer), you restrict the spam level of armies, while having useful and powerful units. If you had asked me two weeks ago, I would have said, "Give devastators relentless, because they suck without it and I'm gonna use Centurions". Enter Skyhammer, all the sudden, I'm looking at Devastators -- but in addition to, not to the exclusion of, Centurions.

Now, I know some of you don't like the "well it follows the fluff" argument, but there are also some of us players that don't like 40k just being a game of 1850 points, pick the best, fight. Doing powerful formations and finding synergies between formations and allies is just way more interesting than "fight my 4 imperial knights" and "fight my 7 wave serpents" and "kill my CentStar". It's a bonus when these formations follow iconic attacks that you imagine the armies to in, such as Angel's Fury, or Skyhammer. Or Seer Council, or Wraith Host.

To look at it the other way, it was sucky that you couldn't play ASM and Dev squads with any effectiveness before, certainly not in the way they're described in fluff.

For us, formations, decurion, and war host has actually revived a lot of more random, less scenario-based play, because a whole new depth of synergy is possible compared to CAD. Now, all this with a caveat -- most of us have so many models that when a cool formation comes out, we don't really need to buy anything. At most, it's usually playing with the odd model that was painted a different color scheme.

Although I confess, I don't have 10 razorbacks.

In generality, I agree with this. I like it when GW releases rules that make the armies feel more like themselves. I often would tell people that the #1 reason I like playing Kill Team is because each army really feels like their army! Tyranids are hordes tenuously supported by synapse, or infiltrating genestealers. Marines are one-man armies, each capable of taking on anything Kill Team can throw at them, an Assault Squad is fast and dangerously well equipped, and Sternguard are terrifying with ignores cover ammo. The Imperial Guard either swarm the table with lots of dudes, or have a tank (the Chimera is a TANK in Kill Team) backed up by infantry that protect it from grenade attacks. Necrons just keep getting back up. Etc, etc.

Having rules that back up the army's feel is great. Given the influx of deathstars, the game could feel very samey between armies. "strong shooting unit A" fires at "fast but powerful unit B" while "tough unit C" holds a critical objective. That may give some great play (and it TOTALLY does), but it doesn't capture the essence of what a Space Marine is, and how their sudden descent is devastating. It doesn't make you feel the true horror of a Necron onslaught, impossible to put down for good. It doesn't amaze you with the incredible deftness and terrifyingly effective weapons and training of the Eldar.

Where I disagree with you is on formation bonuses. These should be the base rules - not a requirement of achieving a certain unit/model threshold. If Marines should have free transports, relentless devastators, and deep-strike + charge assault marines, just give that to them! If Necrons should all have 4+ RP saves, preferred enemy everything, and be required to bring jetbikes, then just do that! Presumably then, you'll price them out accordingly. Just don't make it formation only, but make the formations "free".

@Yarium - the Formations *are* FREE. Unlike early Apoc, there is on +X points per formation on top of the models. Take the units as a group, and it gets the bonus. Simple as that.

And why do they get the bonus? Because these particular units have trained and drilled together with linked comms so that they don't get in each other's way or whatnot. It's Fluffy that only specific groupings get bonuses vs units at their base configuration.

As for Kill Team being more thematic, that's simply an argument for 1500 vs 1850/2000, or 750/1000 vs 1500, wherein armies won't have as many options or redundancy, so you need to do more with less. Leman Russes are more iconic Guard, so a Chimera doesn't quite cut it.