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Finally back home, it's a mess here, people running to the supermarkets and gas stations to supply themselves.
In my pharmacy today the same thing, this whole "European-we'll-work-something-out-or-then-again-we-might-not" has shuttered what little was left of the on going economy and stability.
Banks closed, people divided, a nation ruined from 5 years of austerity that has brought nothing than damage and unemployment.
For one more time, I'm not saying Greece (government/people, take your pick) are not to blame, but placing the entire fault on us is highly unfair.

I would too NOT come to Greece atm for holidays, things became unstable and imo it's everybody's fault but I couldn't care less about that, I care about how it's going to be fixed.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
(Missed the part about the banks)

Fair enough, allow me to explain then.
According to my knowledge and follow up on the matter, facts are:

Greece owed 180 billion € at the start of this mess.
Greece borrows a total of 220 billion € in an arc of 5 years.
Greece has repaid Germany alone over 80 billion € in the same timeline. (I do not know the total for the other countries but the lists are out there and as sure as light I can dig them up for you).
Greece has had a haircut of 50% in the surplus of the debt, equal to something around 90 billion €.
Greece currently owes more than 400 billion €.

I've explained it to the best of my abilities. Now please allow me to ask you to explain to me how banks do NOT profit from this...
:-/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last question: if the banks (that according to me are making money) do not profit from this, and if Greece always owes more money... then WHO is cashing in from all this?

It was explained to you already: they don't profit unless Greece pays back their loans. If they default on those loans then they loose the money that they have invested.

If I loan you 100 € and you pay me 10 € in interest and then default on the loan, I didn't profit 10 €, I just lost 90 €.

Unfortunately I'm a bit slow in comprehending these things, you didn't happen to change the numbers I previously stated now have you? Or maybe deliberately ignored it which is most probable.
Let me quote them for you again



Funny how you turned the 300euros of clean profit made already from my example to a 90 euro loss at yours. :-/
Not to mention the billions of euros that fled from many Greeks into foreign bank accounts. As I said, banks do NOT lose from this mess.
Also, nobody responded if my thinking is wrong WHO actually profits from this, I mean, WHERE are all these billions of euros sitting at?

Bottom line from someone you do not know and who has done you no harm:
I'm very worried about the future... :-(

Why did Greece want to join the Euro in the first place?

I don't believe Germany can be absolved from all responsibility, which has been pointed out by serious commentators who know what they are talking about.

That said, the UK said "no" to the Euro and has been saved from the aggro. (We have enough aggro from our banking industry without being stuck deep into the Euro as well.)

I mean in some sense the Greek government looks kind of financially incompetent whatever angle you are looking from.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why did Greece want to join the Euro in the first place?

For cheaper loans, basically. Before the Euro Greeks paid very high rates on any loan, often triple or more what Euro countries did. Greece just wasn't seen as stable enough to give them the better rates. After joining the Euro they could get the lower rates that people like the Germans were used to.

But they falsified their eligibility. With the help of banks like Goldman-Sachs hiding problems behind smokescreens of technically legal but morally dubious money manuevers, added to outright falsification of Greek state finances. If something looked bad they just left it out of the papers! Not that I'd blame all of it on the Greeks. The Euro group must have been filled with idiots too, letting their wish for a new Euro member cloud all judgement. They should have known something was fishy if they actually tried to go through any of the books.

Hum. Well, that supports my point, really.

Mind you, France was in violation of its Euro stability commitment at one stage, and it was ignored.

UK is spit over euro, some want to leave, trade but leave EU as a institution.

We are slightly protected by not having such a link and own currency that's a buffer in some respect.
Deep into the Euro but not as deep as those using the Euro as a currency.


Things are getting bad, far as I read your atms are running out of cash, something like 40% only have cash in places according to some media.

Time to worry is when cash does run out.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
Finally back home, it's a mess here, people running to the supermarkets and gas stations to supply themselves.
In my pharmacy today the same thing, this whole "European-we'll-work-something-out-or-then-again-we-might-not" has shuttered what little was left of the on going economy and stability.

Unfortunately instability largely hidden, not measured, ignored by the systems put in place by the Greek government.

Banks closed, people divided, a nation ruined from 5 years of austerity that has brought nothing than damage and unemployment.

I read what was written down specifically for austerity measures for at least 2012.
What did you see as one of the unfortunate people not "self employed" so hiding income is not even a consideration?
I do not mean that as a nasty thing, looking at the systems in place it would promote bad behavior from the best of people.

For one more time, I'm not saying Greece (government/people, take your pick) are not to blame, but placing the entire fault on us is highly unfair.

Agreed it is not the entire fault, in interdependent economies it would be hard to be the only one.
The systems in place for financial systems and government spending and revenue collection was badly flawed and by design and ignorance greatly contributed to Greece appearing to be not great but OK until real numbers could be figured out.

I would too NOT come to Greece atm for holidays, things became unstable and imo it's everybody's fault but I couldn't care less about that, I care about how it's going to be fixed.

Yes, a few vacationers stranded and not able to get at their funds, a mess for everyone.
How to "fix it" is default on the loans.
Its been done before by other countries.
The debt is too great for the Greek people to reasonably pay off.
Still follow through on as many of the recommendations the IMF had to say, I actually think they meant well.
At least then the efforts would be for the people and improving governance.

Not to mention the billions of euros that fled from many Greeks into foreign bank accounts. As I said, banks do NOT lose from this mess.

Oddly, recommendations were made to hold banks like the Swiss more accountable for them being used for tax evasion.
A great deal of money went to banks out of country due to "lack of trust" sound familiar?
So the Greek banks also were no good for issuing loans to their people contributing to the issues.
I heard it is uncommon in Greece for anyone to have a credit card or access to one: is that true?

Also, nobody responded if my thinking is wrong WHO actually profits from this, I mean, WHERE are all these billions of euros sitting at?

Largely now, interest payments (higher anywhere BECAUSE they were high risk of default...).
BUT the original money went to paying of bills the government could not due to inefficiencies.
Schools, government owned institutions, pensions, these "simple" things cost too much to pay for due to the HORRIBLE means of collecting taxes and managing spending.
It is not so much the who (rarely is) the systems for doing these things did not work and they still have not changed so they can continue to destroy the country's economy.

Bottom line from someone you do not know and who has done you no harm:
I'm very worried about the future... :-(

Bottom line, I am worried for you and your country's future.
It is a systemic problem.
If all debt was completely erased as of today, in one decade I would guarantee they would be back to this problem again if the systems do not change.
I personally get fed up for people looking to "blame".
Too late, the deed is done, what would we do different?
What can we do now?

No more handouts, bankrupt, switch to your own currency, make the money yours.
Government to be transparent in it's dealings and expenditures, the less complicated record keeping the better.
Simple tax laws, simple collection, ENFORCEMENT, demand / expect receipts in all things, tax collector cannot show where you ate, slept and bought your stuff: fines = more government revenue.
Privatize as much as possible to drive efficiencies, the less government "credits" the better, more public industry.
Being able to "print your own money" will allow the Greek banks to have money, the Americans have been doing it for years.
Look at my prior links, IMF auditors, people with names, professionals appeared to have some interest to get Greece on it's feet.
Even if it was COMPLETELY self interest, many recommendations make sense.

This is my two cents / simplification of a complicated problem.

I honestly hope for you the best in these troubled times.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:


Unfortunately I'm a bit slow in comprehending these things, you didn't happen to change the numbers I previously stated now have you? Or maybe deliberately ignored it which is most probable.
Let me quote them for you again

Spoiler:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

One last thing regarding the pillaging comment above; Europe and the IMF isn't losing any money, let's be clear on that. These are interests that will not be paid, interest upon interest, we owed 180 billion € back in 2010, now it's over 400.
If -hopefully not because it means our suffering was for nothing- bankruptcy does occur, European banks didn't hand out 220 billion euros, that's the money they claim out of the absurd interest rates Greece has been forced into signing to avoid bankruptcy. I don't have the numbers nor am I in a position to know for a fact, but I'll explain this the same way I explained it to my employee last year.
I loan you 100€ and pretend interest. Fair enough. Then I see you are in trouble and hand you another 100€. Interest is elevated however. This happens another 3 times, each of which I generously put another 100€ each time making you sign new contracts pretending always more, for a total of 500€. In the meanwhile you have repaid me something like 800€, but due to the absurd interest rates you still owe me money, even more than before, actually you owe me now another 1000€.

Doing the math, I gave 500€, took back 800€ and you still owe me 1000€. I feel 'pillaging' is a great term. How would you feel?

Funny how you turned the 300euros of clean profit made already from my example to a 90 euro loss at yours. :-/
Not to mention the billions of euros that fled from many Greeks into foreign bank accounts. As I said, banks do NOT lose from this mess.
Also, nobody responded if my thinking is wrong WHO actually profits from this, I mean, WHERE are all these billions of euros sitting at?

I don't know how you have arrived at those numbers. Greece's interest rates for its loans with the Eurogroup stand at 2,5% yearly. That means that on a 500€ loan you need to pay 12,5€ in interest each year which means that to achieve the numbers that you are quoting the loan would have to be in place for over 104 years. Even before the initial bailout, Greece had on average an interest rate lower than 5% which means that a loan would have to stand for over 50 years to reach those values and that is just not how things are done.

Greece has been living with government deficits since the eighties, you've only achieved a positive structural balance in 2012. That is close to thirty years of borrowing money and then borrowing more money to pay back those initial loans plus cover the still existing deficit. And every time you borrow money to pay back a loan, guess what? Your debt actually grows, it doesn't shrink, because you'll have to borrow a larger amount since you now have to pay not only the original loan but also its interest (and borrow even more because you still aren't making enough money to cover your expenses).

Also I don't know if that is your intention, but what is coming across is that you think that the people / banks / countries / whatever that have been lending you the money for all these years shouldn't profit from this activity for some reason.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

Bottom line from someone you do not know and who has done you no harm:
I'm very worried about the future... :-(

I don't wish you or any of yours or anyone in Greece for that matter any harm and I sincerely hope that you guys manage to turn this around and get back on your feet and hope that your international business will at least help you weather all of this in the best possible way.

The real question is:

Is the debt now the interest that is killing them or if all debts were cleared would they still be running a deficit?

To loan money a profit is expected, return on investment or it could have gone somewhere else.

The root causes of the indebtedness have been identified and IMF has tried to "force" the Greek government to use sustainable systems to get back on it's feet. Either what they have chosen to implement or the method they chose is "unfair" enough to get many of it's citizens up in arms.

Loans are not a right.
Those that hold the money and fear to not have it returned have a right to withhold it.

As long as the government is responsible to provide services, the citizens MUST pay taxes or those services MUST be privatized so the government can "afford" what remains it is responsible for.

If tax evasion remains the primary issue, the government would be within it's rights to charge on usage for those services to ensure they get their money.

 Talizvar wrote:
The real question is:

Is the debt now the interest that is killing them or if all debts were cleared would they still be running a deficit?

Greece's interest spending in 2014 was 4.3% of their GDP and that includes the interest payments to the CEB that would have to be given back to Greece if they fulfilled their previous agreements. If those are taken into account then that spending drops to 2.6%.

If we take last years numbers into account then yes, if all the Greek debt was wiped out then they would have a positive balance. But even before Syriza was elected, tax revenue dropped 1.048 billion Euros (23%) and if you add all the expenses that the previous governments had cut and that this Government re-instated then they would probably still be in the red even if all debt was wiped out.

There was an article on the BBC I looked at.

It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?


Also the IMF is charging too much interest.

http://jubileedebt.org.uk/news/imf-made-e2-5-billion-profit-greece-loans


If I was in charge of Greece I'd be tempted to just go bankrupt.

Young people would do well to move abroad and work there.

The banks have treated Greece poorly the more I look at it.

You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

 Frazzled wrote:
You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

I do feel like Greece is kind of innocent though.

The people responsible aren't going to suffer, the Greek people certainly will and they have as much real control over what their governments do as you or I.

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

I do feel like Greece is kind of innocent though.

The people responsible aren't going to suffer, the Greek people certainly will and they have as much real control over what their governments do as you or I.

The greek people -who seem to exist on nothing but tourism and government jobs-elected them. them.

I'd rather go on vacation to Turkey anyway.

 Frazzled wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

I do feel like Greece is kind of innocent though.

The people responsible aren't going to suffer, the Greek people certainly will and they have as much real control over what their governments do as you or I.

The greek people -who seem to exist on nothing but tourism and government jobs-elected them. them.

I'd rather go on vacation to Turkey anyway.

I assume you wont be joining in with the whip round then?

Can I have one of their islands?

 Frazzled wrote:
Can I have one of their islands?

Yes, you can have Rhodes on the condition that you have the Colossus rebuilt

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

I do feel like Greece is kind of innocent though.

The people responsible aren't going to suffer, the Greek people certainly will and they have as much real control over what their governments do as you or I.

If you continue to vote on the same people, that you know are corrupt, on every single election then shouldn't you take some of the responsibility as well? Isn't that kind of one of the basis of democracy?

And lets not kid ourselves, this is not an exclusive problem of corruption at the top, this is a society where tax evasion and bribery are completely ingrained from top to bottom.

23% of the people that paid taxes stopped paying them when a new government promised them that the austerity would end if they voted for them. This is completely bonkers!

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Can I have one of their islands?

Yes, you can have Rhodes on the condition that you have the Colossus rebuilt

A Colossus of dog food cans! Can Do!

PhantomViper wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You seem to be acting like Greece is some poor innocent. When you spend more than you take in, for decades, there's a problem.

I do feel like Greece is kind of innocent though.

The people responsible aren't going to suffer, the Greek people certainly will and they have as much real control over what their governments do as you or I.

If you continue to vote on the same people, that you know are corrupt, on every single election then shouldn't you take some of the responsibility as well? Isn't that kind of one of the basis of democracy?

And lets not kid ourselves, this is not an exclusive problem of corruption at the top, this is a society where tax evasion and bribery are completely ingrained from top to bottom.

23% of the people that paid taxes stopped paying them when a new government promised them that the austerity would end if they voted for them. This is completely bonkers!

What you say is true.

When I went to Rhodes I saw that loads of the houses were built with rebar sticking out of them.

I asked why and they said that it was so that the house could be declared as unfinished and avoid tax.

The guy said he had 2 deeds for his house 1 real one and one for tax purposes and went on about bribes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Can I have one of their islands?

Yes, you can have Rhodes on the condition that you have the Colossus rebuilt

A Colossus of dog food cans! Can Do!

A massive majestic Dachshund would be glorious.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Also the IMF is charging too much interest.
http://jubileedebt.org.uk/news/imf-made-e2-5-billion-profit-greece-loans
If I was in charge of Greece I'd be tempted to just go bankrupt.
Young people would do well to move abroad and work there.
The banks have treated Greece poorly the more I look at it.

The quote in your link is worth mentioning:

"Tim Jones, economist at the Jubilee Debt Campaign, said:
"The IMF’s loans to Greece have not only bailed out banks which lent recklessly in the first place, they have actively taken even more money out of the country. This usurious interest adds to the unjust debt forced on the people of Greece.”"

There is a reason for high interest rates: high risk.
So if Greece does indeed go bankrupt, how much profit did the IMF make?
The higher interest is a "hedge" against if they default and the money is lost.
If it all works out then yes bank capitalism wins in a big way and Greece loses.

 Talizvar wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
Also the IMF is charging too much interest.
http://jubileedebt.org.uk/news/imf-made-e2-5-billion-profit-greece-loans
If I was in charge of Greece I'd be tempted to just go bankrupt.
Young people would do well to move abroad and work there.
The banks have treated Greece poorly the more I look at it.

The quote in your link is worth mentioning:

"Tim Jones, economist at the Jubilee Debt Campaign, said:
"The IMF’s loans to Greece have not only bailed out banks which lent recklessly in the first place, they have actively taken even more money out of the country. This usurious interest adds to the unjust debt forced on the people of Greece.”"

There is a reason for high interest rates: high risk.
So if Greece does indeed go bankrupt, how much profit did the IMF make?
The higher interest is a "hedge" against if they default and the money is lost.
If it all works out then yes bank capitalism wins in a big way and Greece loses.

Exactly. While usury is indefensible it's not really applicable to Greece. This issue with Greece isn't hidden rate increases or high rates simply from avarice, the issue with Greece is that they trashed their credit rating. They vote in a goverment that refuses to reduce spending, have a populace that has turned tax evasion into an acceptable social norm and already owe billions of Euros that they can't really afford to pay back. The only way Greece was going to be able to intice foreign investment and get more loans is via high interest rates. The only alternative would be to not offer high rates, not get loans and let their government run out of money.

Maybe the Greeks could learn from the Argentinians?

 r_squared wrote:
Maybe the Greeks could learn from the Argentinians?

Rather telling quote in the link provided:

"Furthermore, without pressure from Brussels and the IMF, Greece might be tempted to dodge some of the structural reforms that its creditors maintain are necessary for long-term growth. A lack of such reforms could reintroduce inflation into the Greek economy."

This is assuming they default in the above statement.

""How many years before they would see the light at the end of the tunnel?" asks financial expert Paul Blustein.
Mr Blustein, who wrote a book on the Argentine default, is now writing one on the crisis in Athens. "Greece would go through a horribly wretched period," he says."

As was stated, Argentina was able to export so by having a devalued currency they were able to be very competitive.
Greece does not have that advantage even with more economical tourism (paraphrasing the article).

Root cause of the debt needs to be fixed no matter the outcome for Greece or we will see this again and again until it becomes a no-man's land.

The interest rates on the major loans to Greece are 3.6% (IMF) and 2.75% (ESF) which is not very high.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The interest rates on the major loans to Greece are 3.6% (IMF) and 2.75% (ESF) which is not very high.

All the more reason not to blame bankers and make accusations of usury.

The painful part is the interest coupled with what is owed (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/28/us-eurozone-greece-debt-factbox-idUSKCN0P80XW20150628:)
242.8 billion euros
Let us assume 3% for the whole thing annually for giggles, no compound interest calculations.
So in a year they owe 7.284 billion in interest on top of what is owed.

Greek population: (http://countrymeters.info/en/Greece)
11,124,972

So then each person in Greece owes $654,743 just in interest.

I hope I did that math wrong.

Wow the Greek government knows how to blow through money like nobody's business!

 obsidianaura wrote:
It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?

And my family back home in Ireland would be paying off Greece's loans why?

In related news, a 29yr old shoe shop clerk is running an Indiegogo campaign to bail out the Greeks lol. 3euros for everyone else in Europe would pay it off lol

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/29/greece-crowdfund-bailout_n_7687104.html?ir=Technology&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000042

Campaign link :
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund/x/11204056#/story
(the page is a bit broken at the moment due to the amount of attention it's getting!)

For the work blocked:

Greece is going to need a lot more than 120 euros to escape its current debt crisis.

But that’s all that three donors had given by Monday morning, a day after a British man named Thom Feeney set up a crowdfunding campaign on the site Indiegogo.

The goal: 1,600,000,000 euros (about $1.8 billion) -- and only eight days left before the unofficial funding campaign closes.

"I truly do believe it can be effective, remember it's a very small amount per person we're looking for," Feeney, a 29-year-old shoe-shop worker in London, told The Huffington Post in an email. "It also makes a statement, if a man who works in a London shoe shop can get closer to solving the Greek financial crisis than David Cameron and Angela Merkel, maybe we all need to take a good hard look at the world."

By Tuesday afternoon, donations soared into the hundreds of thousands, though the campaign was still far off from the target amount.

Resolving the crisis is no simple task. Greece has been negotiating with creditors for months to extend a bailout program and release a 7.2 billion euro ($8.03 billion) tranche of funds that the country could use to pay off its debts. Greece has refused to meet some of the strict austerity reforms demanded by lenders.

In addition, Greece's 1.6 billion euro ($1.8 billion) loan payment to the International Monetary Fund is due Tuesday. The country does not have the money to pay it.

On Friday, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras shocked lenders when he announced a July 5 referendum on the country’s bailout. Greek banks were closed on Monday, and residents were limited to ATM withdrawals of just 60 euros (roughly $66). Greeks queued up around the country, trying to pull out cash ahead of a potential financial collapse.

Moreover, it’s unclear how Greece could legally accept such a large transfer of money from Indiegogo to government coffers.

Still, Feeney appears to be holding out hope that a huge chunk of the EU’s citizenry will voluntarily part with a few euros, or at least pay up for a Greek-themed reward for donating: Three euros ($3.35) earns a postcard of Tsipras, sent from Greece; 6 euros ($6.69 U.S.) delivers a feta cheese and olive salad to a donor’s door; 10 euros ($11.15 U.S.) gets a voucher for a small bottle of ouzo, Greece’s signature aperitif (Indiegogo doesn’t allow alcoholic gifts); 25 euros ($27.89 U.S.) means a voucher for a bottle of Greek wine.

And for a donation for the full 1.6 billion euros, Feeney has vowed to find that donor her or his own private Greek island.

"Do I feel it will help? It can't harm, can it?" he said. "I'm confident the people of Europe will get this campaign and some time soon we'll all be raising a glass of ouzo and having a bloody great big celebration."

For now, it may be time to just pass the ouzo and wait for what happens next.

This story has been updated with comments from Feeney and a number that better reflects the amount of money donated so far.

It's the entire EU's problem. Letting everyone join without any good reason leads to problem like this. EU /= USA. That's something EU politicians just don't understand.

Greece has no industry and just lives on tourism. Romania. Croatia. Slovakia. What do they contribute? Exactly.

 obsidianaura wrote:
There was an article on the BBC I looked at.

It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?

Let me get this straight... 500€, a value that's over my country's minimum wage of last year, this year I think it's actually 505€. 500€ that's actually over 50% what I get after all the taxes and discounts and it would all be to help pay the debt of a country that refused to implement measures that my own country has been doing for what, 3-4 years now in an attempt to get out of our own gak hole?