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jonman_t wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k is sold pretty much entirely on its visuals. To the extent that the rules don't support cinematic play, the rules are wrong.

Perhaps , but its intent is also to keep a parallel to realism. Real battles are fought with fodder. Real fodder usually dies before generals die. I think they have done a fair job. After a couple turns , that's when the cinematics shine. When the squad is all dead except for your hero and he locked in combat with a monster. It's picture worthy.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from on most of you arguments, but 40k has nothing to do with realism.

Keep yo realism outta my grimdark sci-fi 80's rehash super-parody!

D = Str 10, AP1

 doktor_g wrote:
D = Str 10, AP1

Nah. D is like Rending. It deals with tougher things on a To Wound roll of 6. Rending deals with armored vehicles or terminators. D weapons deal with death stars and super heavies and ludicrously synergized invincible models. The ability to ignore invulnerability saves or to one-shot a Super Heavy (which remember... can't explode) or a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature (which remember... can't be Instant Deathed) is similar to what Explode or Instant Death already do. The rules for D are just a simplified way of saying: S10, AP1, Instant Death, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Tesla, on a 6 ignores all Saving Throws; ish... in a world where void shields, T10, and 9 hull points are a reality.

 doktor_g wrote:
D = Str 10, AP1

Cool, now the Shadowsword is inarguably weaker than the hellhammer :/

D should be rarer, but still exist for fluff reasons.

doktor_g wrote:D = Str 10, AP1

Not even a little bit, unless you plan on reworking the entire strength and AP system.

Arkaine wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
D = Str 10, AP1

Nah. D is like Rending. It deals with tougher things on a To Wound roll of 6. Rending deals with armored vehicles or terminators. D weapons deal with death stars and super heavies and ludicrously synergized invincible models. The ability to ignore invulnerability saves or to one-shot a Super Heavy (which remember... can't explode) or a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature (which remember... can't be Instant Deathed) is similar to what Explode or Instant Death already do. The rules for D are just a simplified way of saying: S10, AP1, Instant Death, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Tesla, on a 6 ignores all Saving Throws; ish... in a world where void shields, T10, and 9 hull points are a reality.

Selym wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
D = Str 10, AP1

Cool, now the Shadowsword is inarguably weaker than the hellhammer :/

D should be rarer, but still exist for fluff reasons.

Destroyer and titan-killer weapons should be more powerful, but a rarity, especially in a list under 3k points, like so:

Destroyer
Destroyer weapons are immensely powerful weapons, capable of laying entire armies low. If a weapon has a D instead of a strength value in its profile, it is a Destroyer weapon. A Destroyer weapon has a strength of 10 for determining armor penetration and has the Fleshbane, Instant Death, Lance, and Armourbane special rules. To resolve a Destroyer weapon attack, roll to hit and to wound or for armor penetration normally. Then, roll a D3 and consult the Destroyer Damage table below.
1 - Serious Blow - The model suffers an additional 2 wounds or penetrating hits with only invulnerable saves allowed.
2 - Crippling Blow - The model suffers an additional 3 wounds or penetrating hits with no saves allowed.
3 - Devastating Blow - The model suffers an additional 4 wounds or penetrating hits with no saves allowed.

Excess wounds or hull points lost do not carry over to other models in the unit, if there are any.

Titan-Killer
Titan-Killer weapons are designed for one purpose - to destroy the largest, most powerful, and most well-armored targets with ease.

A weapon with the Titan-Killer rule has the Fleshbane, Instant Death, Lance, and Armourbane special rules. If a weapon with this special rule is also a Destroyer weapon, the amount of wounds or penetrating hits the target model suffers is doubled.

I found two more that SHOULD to be 'house ruled', but don't necessarily need to make 40k work. No, it's not necessarily fair, but it makes things more enjoyable.

1) If we're not going to get rid of Area Terrain, then we need to apply the Vehicle Obscured thing to MC's. Yes, this is all Nids have, but at the same time it's being abused, more than making games enjoyable.
2) While Allies are fine, it should not be more points than your Primary Detachment. (Seriously Draigo and Paladins as allies on a 1k game? Fluffy, yes. Enjoyable to play against? ..... )

I like the #2...

 Selym wrote:
I like the #2...

But wouldn't people just switch their detachments?

So now Draigo and chums is the primary and the other people are the allied but the overall army is exactly the same. So it doesn't really fix anything.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I like the #2...

But wouldn't people just switch their detachments?

So now Draigo and chums is the primary and the other people are the allied but the overall army is exactly the same. So it doesn't really fix anything.

It means that they now have to do the whole troop tax thing if they want to remain bound.

They would before. The grey knight specific detachment only requires 1 troop and 1 hq. Draigo is a low, so any time you see this unit in a list if they're battleforged there are going to be the troop and hq anyway. (Probably a ml3 librarian in terminator ator armor and one of the grey knight non termi troops, name escapes me atm)

Pretty much the only houserule we use is "splitting hairs is no" - meaning if we are unsure if something reaches, it doesnt. Speeds the game up dramatically.

I get why "remove wounds from front" is hated, but how about this:
wounds from the front stays (it makes sense, the front of the unit is going to take the most damage) however, on a 4+ or Ld check (oh noes, randomness) a squad member has the time/composure to loot his dead buddy for the plasma gun and related ammo.
Pick your own warlord traits
Pick your own spells (with reworkings to the most broken and weakest spells to actually make it a choice, and not invis. spam)
Either 6+d6 or 2d6+3 for charge range
mitigate some randomness from maelstrom, it's a nice addition to counter static armies and general cheese, though I do get the complaints about some of the missions, maybe draw 6 at the start of the game, the ability to mulligan, etc.?

While the warlords traits thing can get out of hand, it does make sense, and at least give a chance of putting players on an equal footing.

*remembering the time my EC got a ranged Warlord Trait*

I dont mind the random warlord traits thing but i hate how they are so diversified you can easily ... ok VERY easily ... get a trait that is utterly useless for your warlord. I dont know how many times ive gotten "Reroll to hits of 1 in shooting phase" with my sluggaboyz/biker ork army.....talk about pointless when bikes reroll as it is and sluggas are running every turn.

I wish there were more categories to pick from, only they were D3 instead of D6 so its less random and more specific to the role you want.

And what's up with the Warlord traits that only serve to get you a free VP? The feth?

Oh you mean the one you never get on a melee warlord for a free VP after a won challenge?

The imagination was lost. Warlord traits should give you table-wide perks, unit-wide stronger perks, or make the warlord himself a beast. I hate those ones that dont seem to do those, which is why i never roll on my Tau ones because they almost never help. Ork ones are "fine" but i find the Command Traits to be way way better.

Picking the Warlord traits would be amazing.
The times that I have gotten "Reroll fail to hits in combat" and "The Warlord and his/her unit have outflank" for my poor Tank Commander is beyond a joke.

Yeah, but it would be so unfair, because every Warlord would be bringing their best to the tabletop. Oh, wait...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, but it would be so unfair, because every Warlord would be bringing their best to the tabletop. Oh, wait...

Exactly! How is a commander supposed to know their own tactics before a battle begins?

That is what I think I was getting at is that I like my tactics with a little fluff:
A 40k novel simulator.
If the Khorn champions are leading from the rear, something is terribly wrong.
Or Creed is such a genius even he does not know what he is good at until the battle begins.

Creed is a TACTICAL genius, not a Strategic genius...

The Allies rule needs to vanish.
Invisibility reduces all units shooting/meleeing it to BS1
Invisibility may NOT be cast on vehicle squadrons (Vindicator Linebreaker in particular)

oh leave allies. It makes sense, If we write rules SOLELY around those that will abuse it, then it would just be a bland, boring, "game."

Allies does need to stay. But I wouldn't mind it being somewhat weakened. There are some broken combinations, but I like to use Militarum Tempestus with my Sororitas. However "allies of convenience" replacing battle brothers all around wouldn't bug me at all.

 DevonMrtnz wrote:
Allies does need to stay. But I wouldn't mind it being somewhat weakened. There are some broken combinations, but I like to use Militarum Tempestus with my Sororitas. However "allies of convenience" replacing battle brothers all around wouldn't bug me at all.

I disagree with this there needs to be a few battle brothers like in the case of Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus/Imperial Knights. Especially Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus. Maybe even Iron Hands and the Ad Mech. Should there be as many battle brothers? Probably not, but there should be a few where it really makes sense. Some space marine factions should be battle brothers with some other space marine factions and not others. That's not even counting space marines not apart of the space marines conglomerate.

And I wouldn't mind every faction being come the apocalypse with the Ultramarines. I despise them above all others.

 NorseSig wrote:

 DevonMrtnz wrote:
Allies does need to stay. But I wouldn't mind it being somewhat weakened. There are some broken combinations, but I like to use Militarum Tempestus with my Sororitas. However "allies of convenience" replacing battle brothers all around wouldn't bug me at all.

I disagree with this there needs to be a few battle brothers like in the case of Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus/Imperial Knights. Especially Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus. Maybe even Iron Hands and the Ad Mech. Should there be as many battle brothers? Probably not, but there should be a few where it really makes sense. Some space marine factions should be battle brothers with some other space marine factions and not others. That's not even counting space marines not apart of the space marines conglomerate.

And I wouldn't mind every faction being come the apocalypse with the Ultramarines. I despise them above all others.

Someone who understands my pain! :')

 Selym wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 DevonMrtnz wrote:
Allies does need to stay. But I wouldn't mind it being somewhat weakened. There are some broken combinations, but I like to use Militarum Tempestus with my Sororitas. However "allies of convenience" replacing battle brothers all around wouldn't bug me at all.

I disagree with this there needs to be a few battle brothers like in the case of Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus/Imperial Knights. Especially Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus. Maybe even Iron Hands and the Ad Mech. Should there be as many battle brothers? Probably not, but there should be a few where it really makes sense. Some space marine factions should be battle brothers with some other space marine factions and not others. That's not even counting space marines not apart of the space marines conglomerate.

And I wouldn't mind every faction being come the apocalypse with the Ultramarines. I despise them above all others.

Someone who understands my pain! :')

here here!

The entire system needs a rewrite. Go to D10s to make for easier statistics and greater granularity.

Martel732 wrote:
The entire system needs a rewrite. Go to D10s to make for easier statistics and greater granularity.

That is a wee bit more than a rule "tweak" for house rules but I agree with the logic of it, 10% increments rather than 16.7% and true percentile rolling can be done with different colored D10's.

 Arkaine wrote:
No Allies
No Lords of War
No Super Heavies
No Gargantuan Creatures
No Fortifications other than Aegis Defense Line
No ForgeWorld rules
No Apocalypse formations
No more than two CAD/detachments/formations/auxiliary

Or more simply known as the "No bs" rule.

"NOOOOO I MUST HAVE 4th edition!" Fair enough, if that's how you feel, then take away all those things, but in the right place, those can be fun. Case in point, and Ork stompa is A LOW, and expensive points wise, not overpowered and easy to kill. What about Marneus? Ghazzy? Dante? All of these are LOW.

Truthfully, the best way to have fun, that nobody wants to say is: play in a way that you and your opponent can have fun. So if you are going to a tournament, expect utter insane, bizarre nonsense. If you are playing at your FLGS, take a silly list with fortifications, or a baneblade, and take a backup list which is a bit more toned down. If you have the chance to talk to your opponent in advance, see if he wants to "forge the narrative" and play something with a combination of things.

There is literally no way to balance the game, and throwing out the new toys that people have (FW, Wraithknights, superheavies, formations) is nothing more than saying you want to play with your collection, and that people should build their collection like you. I play in many tournaments every year, and literally every tournament I get my face broken by some crazy rock/paper/scissor build. Most of the games are awesome fun. As a community we need to just accept that the game has grown beyond the collections we built for fourth and fifth, treat our opponents with respect, and enjoy the game for what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: not that I disagree that many things about this game suck, but if it's bugging you that much, go and pick up a copy of Beyond The Gates of Antares and try something different, I know that's what I'm going to do.

At the end of the day we are squabbling over our war dollies.