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BossJakadakk wrote:

wtnind wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
This Librarius Conclave list just spits in the Cyclopia Cabal's eyes and poops on the couch and wipes its butt on the rug.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/697047.page

Wow, another formation of 3-5 models falls to a massive, table-spanning deathstar.

Exactly, you can make a cabal for 195 points, trying to turn 2 wound models into an unkillable death machine is not the best idea just keep em cheapish and get some value out of them.

Would that even be good? You're essentially then just using them as a dice battery. With 30" range on their formation power, you're probably still able to throw it out most turns, but I'm not taking the formation just for that - it's just an easy way to put 3 sorcerers in a list. Shroud is not to be underestimated but I'd maybe just take one sorcerer and beef him up if I were going to run this formation under 200 points.

Well that's the naked cost. For a budget cost I would run them 1 with terminator armour and 3 spell familiars for ~260 points. Then either bunker them in spawn or plague marines or allied plague zombies (from IA13). It is cheap and gives you a source of AP2 instant death in your squads as well as 75% chance of psychic scream throwing only a single die (x3 because if they are split up they can all cast it). Terminator armour is mostly for aesthetics tbh but could be handy to take challenges in certain squads against certain enemies (but you obviously can't be in a rhino at that point).

Having them in 3 seperate squads really hedges your bets. What are we talking about here anyway though? its not like the cabal is going to let you win against wolfstar or scatterbike spam but it's a nice unit and one of the better options for CSM. And its good fun, like Mayhem Packs - sure they go wrong more times than they go right but they are a blast to use.

So to bring a rambling post back to the OP, cheese is relative. You can make a pretty decent deathstar with them but you probably still won't win against the best deathstars out there. But they are still strong against a number of lists (Tau and Eldar WK specifically) so against these the 'cheese' (though I'm not sure I'd call it that) would be to split them up to prevent them getting concentrated down allowing you to still mind control thier gargantuans for less points cost than the gargantuan cost them.

So...back to Cabal/KDK Deathstars....

Is there a good way to do it with just KDK/CSM/Cabal (no demons) and still make it decent? My main issue is enemy knights and flyers. What should I be looking to do? This is kinda what I was working with. I've seen a bark star with Misfortune wreck everything, so I'm thinking a Crimson Slaughter detachment with a Sorcerer and Balestar is a good HQ to take, but I'm not sure what else is good with the CSM CAD that's worthwhile. Also, I've thought of Belakor for Guaranteed Invis and his Armorbane. (BTW I mainly play ITC style).

KDK CAD
- Herald on Juggernaught and Hatred Locus
- 8 Cultists
- 8 Cultists
- 15 Khorne Dogs

Cabal
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW

Crimson Slaughter CAD
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike with Balestar
- 10 Cultists
- 10 Cultists
- Chaos Knight of Khorne with Legacy of 1st War of Armageddon

Does this list actually have enough staying power to do anything other than not die?

 whitedragon wrote:
So...back to Cabal/KDK Deathstars....

Is there a good way to do it with just KDK/CSM/Cabal (no demons) and still make it decent? My main issue is enemy knights and flyers. What should I be looking to do? This is kinda what I was working with. I've seen a bark star with Misfortune wreck everything, so I'm thinking a Crimson Slaughter detachment with a Sorcerer and Balestar is a good HQ to take, but I'm not sure what else is good with the CSM CAD that's worthwhile. Also, I've thought of Belakor for Guaranteed Invis and his Armorbane. (BTW I mainly play ITC style).

KDK CAD
- Herald on Juggernaught and Hatred Locus
- 8 Cultists
- 8 Cultists
- 15 Khorne Dogs

Cabal
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike, Staff, VoTLW

Crimson Slaughter CAD
- Lvl 3 Sorcerer on Bike with Balestar
- 10 Cultists
- 10 Cultists
- Chaos Knight of Khorne with Legacy of 1st War of Armageddon

Does this list actually have enough staying power to do anything other than not die?

Thats a lot of points for 44 Toughness 4 (majority) wounds. Youre relying on Invisibility to protect them. What do you do if a IK charges your unit? AV13 will tarpit your entire deathstar for the whole game won't it? as it gradually stomps its way through them. Whats the plan for playing vs MSU lists? Or heavy ranged enemy that has a cullexus.

You have to have two Sorcerers roll on Biimancy basically.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have to have two Sorcerers roll on Biimancy basically.

Iron arm sorcerer with staff S9 vs IK.

3+ to hit 4+ to glance with no possibility of explosions due to AP4.

Sorcerer with staff and pistol: 3 Attacks = 2 hits = 1 HP = 6 turns
2 Sorcerers = 3 turns

IK attacks back only with stomps
Each Stomp is
1/6 chance of nothing
4/6 -edit- these can be 'look out sird' so are actually not going to do anything
1/6 chance of killing sorc

Average is 2 stomps
~33% chance to instant kill a sorc per turn

So your chances are less than 50/50 in a best case scenario where you get iron arm on both sorcs and you are only against 1 IK and you have invisibility/ablaitive wounds to ignore his basic swings.

I'd say throw in Kharn the Betrayer into your death star if you might end up vs IK since he absolutely rocks at killing IK due to 2+ to hit and Armourbane. You just have to make sure he can pile in on the first round of combat. Plus he gets to punch out invisible people too. Does mean taking a CSM CAD though since you can't take him in daemonkin. Bel'kor also has better than 50/50 chances of taking out an IK but he has the same problem as bringing your own IK which is that if the knight charges your deathstar and the star wraps all around him you can block your own charge..

Add Cypher to the biker cabal... profit!

 Massaen wrote:
Add Cypher to the biker cabal... profit!

This would also work.

Question: If you choose the Cabal as your Primary Detachment does that allow you to take Cypher without having to take a CSM CAD?

Doesn't your primary detachment have to be the one with the most points in it? Or am I getting that mixed up with some houserule or something?

@astro_nomicon, you can't add models to formations. It's restricted to sorcerers only. (2-5 if I'm not mistaken)

@FoxPhoenix135, no. You can nominate any character as your primary. Short of a few exceptions. The size of the detachment doesn't play a part in this.

Yes - you can definitely add cypher to the cabal. Read the section in the rule book on non force org units, how they work in detachments and what formations are.

RAW, cypher can be added

Saythings wrote:
@astro_nomicon, you can't add models to formations. It's restricted to sorcerers only. (2-5 if I'm not mistaken)

3-5 sorcerers who must be black legion (costs 5 points for mandatory votlw per sorcerer)

That's true - but there is no restriction on adding non force org units to the formation. Cypher by RAW is fine to be part of the formation

Good luck trying to get Cypher into a Cabal detachment in any place besides your basement. Formations tell you exactly what you can bring. The GW Unofficial FAQ even spells out the WYSIWYG part of the formations.

Funny - cause its completely legal at events here in AUS... much like adding a court of the archon to the get started DE formation.

the rule book very clearly tells us how to add non FOC units to detachments and formations are a type of detachment...

 Massaen wrote:
Funny - cause its completely legal at events here in AUS... much like adding a court of the archon to the get started DE formation.

the rule book very clearly tells us how to add non FOC units to detachments and formations are a type of detachment...

Here in the US, I am pretty sure the ITC format doesn't allow it. I've never seen it allowed, at least. If it were, I'd be able to take Techmarines in my formation detachments as an Iron Hands player. As it is, I am only allowed the extra tech marines in a CAD. At least, I am pretty sure it is ITC that doesn't allow it... could just be my local tournament organizers.

It's interesting how different metas allow different playstyles. Haha. Goes to show how loose GW's rules are. Even their FAQs need FAQs! xD

You aren't kidding. You pretty much have to clear everything with your opponent anyway... having "standardized" things like ITC format helps, but there are still some things you have to discuss every time anyway.

So assuming Cypher can't be taken in the Cabal and taking the HoundStar to the extreme, how does this look?

- Cabal

Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike

Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike

Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike, Melta Bombs

Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Jump Pack

Sorc: ML3, VoTLW, Familiar, Force Axe, Jump Pack

-CSM CAD

Sorc: ML3, Familiar, Force Axe, Bike, Balestar

Kharn

Cypher

10 Cultists
10 Cultists

- KDK Allied

Herald: Brazen Rune, Locus of Fury

8 Cultists

20 Hounds

Eggs in one basket indeed. Cypher for HnR and Shrouded, Kharn for anti SHW and being able to dish a modicum of pain to invisible units. Went with Locus of Fury (Rage) to help when going up against other death stars or if I reeeaally need one thing dead.

What do you think? Is there any other wargear I should be considering? Does it just suck? Keep in mind this is most likely going to be played in an environment that uses ITC list building criteria, but the GW draft, not ITC FAQs, so full blown invis, one grenade in assault, Jump pack allows reroll of charge distance etc.

Now that we have good confirmation about the new Heretic Astartes psychic powers, how does this affect the Cabal? I plan to run one with just 3 sorcerers on bikes with spell familiars, along with a KDK Juggerlord and Flesh Hounds. The powers are exactly the same as the Loyalist marine powers from Angels of Death, so my plan is to have one sorcerer roll all three of his powers on Sinistrum (equivalent to Librarius), mainly fishing for the equivalent of Veil of Time. The second guy would be rolling on Sanctic Daemonology, hoping for either Hammerhand or Sanctuary (or better yet, both!). The third guy would roll one power on Telepathy (if he gets Invis, fine, if not, he takes Shriek) and his other two on Biomancy, fishing for Iron Arm and/or Endurance. Assuming I got all the right powers (a man can dream, right?), this would be a very nasty deathstar. The hounds would have a 4+ rerollable invulnerable save, possibly being invisible or having 4+ Feel no Pain, and the Chaos Lord would be there to take challenges. Ideally there would also be a KDK Herald in the unit to give it Hatred, but finding points for that might be tough if you want other stuff in the list. Not as powerful or broken of a deathstar as the Superfriends Wolfstar, but nasty nonetheless.

I'm probably gonna stop running the Cabal, though. One or two sorcerers is enough for me, and there is room for that in the new detachment. However, with access to all these new carbon-copy powers that SM get, it does make the Cabal much more useful. Geomortis and Ectomancy sound pretty useful. Heretech would be awesome with an Iron Warriors themed force.