Is It Time for N3.5?

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**JohnHwangDD**

It's OK. I get that you like the hair-splitting. We disagree. No problem.

**NuggzTheNinja**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
That assumes that each variation is meaningful. I guarantee in the case of Infinity and 40k, at least half of the variations are marginal.

For example, 40k should not distinguish Fearless, No Fear and Stubborn, but instead, pick the most meaningful version and only retain it. Similarly with 40k's Power Weapons - either it is an at I AP3 sword or it is a +S AP2 I1 fist.

Getting back to Infinity, Martial Arts only needs to have basic and Black Belt levels, rather than the 5 it already has. And one flavor of Camo that retains the best ideas.

The marginal differences in Infinity are incredibly meaningful.

Limited Camouflage vs. Camouflage - the ability to re-camo is HUGE especially on a Specialist in ITS. TO camo vs. regular camo is similarly huge given the differences that come with it, such as hidden deployment.

In a game about stacking modifiers, having multiple ways to stack those modifiers is critical. For example, some hacking attacks give better damage (better against low WIP, high BTS enemies) and others give better modifiers in the FtF roll (better against high WIP, low BTS enemies).

The variability gives you a level of strategic depth that you simply don't have without it. There are a few cases where you could lose some of it (Booty, Metachemistry, and *maybe* Martial Arts) but by and large, I don't think I'd want to dumb down the current rules set. The layout of the Rulebook is another thing, though...the bullet point by bullet point descriptions of skills and abilities is very verbose.

**Charistoph**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's OK. I get that you like the hair-splitting. We disagree. No problem.

If I wanted a game where everything was the same, I would stick with chess or Risk.

GW's biggest problem is not their USRs, but in how they right their rules with a lack of care for the game, and more importantly, how they don't use those USRs when they can be make up new variances of those rules.

Take Necrons. We'll Be Back becomes Reanimation Protocols, but is then converted to a modified FNP. Why not just leave it as FNP?

Take Orcs. Two codex editions with no Mob Rule, but then we get it back and they are tearing themselves apart. Why not just give Nobs Stubborn and leave it at that?

I don't think that Infinity's rules are all that "hair-splitting", either, but I am only casually getting in to the game right now so I am not good with all the differences in them.

**Red Harvest**

The rules per se are not really hair-splitting. Some of the other aspects of the game can be.

The example of Limited Camo and Camo is not one of a marginal difference. As noted the difference is HUGE. Marginal differences really are not meaningful, or at the least not sufficiently meaningful to justify existing. Rifle v Marksman rifle is an example of marginal difference. Marksman rifle was added to fill in a perceived blank. I suppose that we can look forward to a Sharpshooter rifle in the next book, with a further incremental range shift. :S

Getting back to the matter of Ammunition:
I count 24 ammo types, but 4 of those are smoke and variants and really don't belong in the same group as the rest. 1 is monofilament, which is not shootable (but apparently throwable.) Of the 29 ranged Ammo types, several are leveled (For example, Normal Ammo is Level 1, Double Action Ammo is Normal Ammo Level 2. This applies to Flash and Stun, and E/M and E/M2). More use BTS instead of ARM but are otherwise identical to the ARM versions ( Nanotech/Double Trouble v. Normal/DA, Breaker v Armor Piercing)

These last types I consider bloat (others may not). Using BTS as just another sort of armor is redundant. Save it for those truly unique Ammo types, like Viral and Pheromonic. Treating BTS as a 2nd sort of armor against shooting is a complication, and honestly what does it add? If you want to attack a unit through its BTS, that is what hacking is for. That makes 3 Ammo types that can be removed, IHMO, and would leave 13 unique types ( including all levels of a given type as 1 type) which would be fine.

Ammunition bloat may be the easiest thing to rectify in the game.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Red Harvest wrote:
Rifle v Marksman rifle is an example of marginal difference. Marksman rifle was added to fill in a perceived blank. I suppose that we can look forward to a Sharpshooter rifle in the next book, with a further incremental range shift. :S

Ammunition bloat may be the easiest thing to rectify in the game.

Honestly I have to disagree about both of these.

Regarding Marksman rifles, an 8" (100%) improvement in optimal range band isn't trivial...that's a full zone in Front Line and the range difference between a Spitfire and an HMG. It doubles the "sweet spot" of the weapon, and anybody who plays the Frenchies can tell you that those Marksman Rifles are a great selling point for a Briscard link.

Regarding ammunition, ARM vs. BTS is important in differentiating units and giving each faction its flavor. For example, Ariadna has plenty of cheap ARM3 troopers, and relatively inexpensive ARM4 and 5 troopers, who are very resistant to regular ammunition but struggle against Viral since they have no BTS. This is especially strong, since Veteran Kazaks, Mormaers, Grunts, pretty much all of the Shock Immune troopers (many of which have NWI or Dogged) pass directly to Dead on a failed Viral roll.

IMO, the dichotomy in ARM and BTS is critical for adding unit flavor, allowing for a single roll (no to-wound roll) without the Toughness trait found in other games.

**chaos0xomega**

Red Harvest wrote:
As per the title, and to avoid more OT in the N&R thread. We've had N3 since December 2014. We've had Human Sphere N3 since May 2016, which completes the ruleset. I've finally managed to get a grip on all the new stuff in Human Sphere-- there is a lot. By including so much to the game, I believe that CB has created needless complication. N2 was difficult to learn too, but not due to the amount required to learn, but rather due to the way it was written/translated.

-There are 30 hacking programs, and 6 hacking devices, and the EVO. In a game about shooting.
-There are 5 levels of Martial Arts.
-There are 23 (?) types of ammunition.
-There are ~154 entries on the Weapons Chart.
-A brief look a the ToC's shows 37 skills in HSN3, and 80 skills in N3.
-I'm not even going to try and count the number of units.

Even with the Army Builder and the handy charts it can produce, this is still too much. After all, to play effectively, one needs to know what one's opponent has. Relying on the Wiki during gameplay is tedious, and constantly looking things up in the books/PDFs even moreso.

A friend of mind who used to play has recently told me he has no interest in playing again because Infinity has become a "Lifestyle" game. By Lifestyle Game he meant something that you must play constantly, essentially to the exclusion of other games, in order to remain a competent player, and more importantly, in order to learn and remember all the rules and other information needed. Skip a week or so and you start forgetting things.

Now N3.5 would be N3 with all the material which adds very little to the game, including skills, weapons (Red Fury for example), and ammo consolidated/removed. Hacking would be streamlined. N3.5 would retain the complexity that arises in Infinity play, which is where the complexity should be, instead of in the choices made before the game.

Rather than just complain, I'd like to see discussion about what could be removed or consolidated or stream-lined to produce a game that can be played at a casual level -- that is to say, occasionally rather than constantly. At the very least, a way to modularize (a word?) the game so that we might ignore the bloat. (levels of play maybe?)

Suggestions on how and where to trim the fat?

This has always been the case with Infinity. Yeah, the numbers might be a bit different, but N1 and N2 also had 5 levels of martial arts, a dozen or more different ammo types, dozens of weapons and skills, etc. etc. etc. What you're asking for is to essentially change the nature of the game itself.

**Red Harvest**

Hunh? What do you see as the nature of the game?
(hint: think resource management)

What I'm asking for is a reduction in the gratuitous add-ons to the game, not any change to the core. removing the BTS based ammo, for example, changes nothing about the nature of game.

**JohnHwangDD**

OK, I'm out. This isn't the game for me, and I'm sorry for having posted here at all.

**-Loki-**

That seems a little churlish. You came in asking what people thought of streamlining a game known and even loved for its complexity. You're going to get spirited discussion from both sides, as there are people who want the complexity and those that don't. Can't really be upset that the majority of posters who play the game at the moment like how the game is at the moment, otherwise they'd not be playing it.

**Sqorgar**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, I'm out. This isn't the game for me, and I'm sorry for having posted here at all.

It probably isn't the game for you (though it's worth taking the chance), but please don't take the discussion personally. I'm sure no offense was meant. Sometimes, simple games are fun because they are simple and complex games are fun because they are complex. It might not be what you are personally interested in, but you can understand how people might have opinions about a suggestion that a game they like be changed in a way antithesis to the way they enjoy it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to drop by the 40k forum with my suggestion that the game would be better if it had more rules where you get bonuses for talking to your figures in a funny voice or having the best beard...

**NuggzTheNinja**

Red Harvest wrote:
Hunh? What do you see as the nature of the game?
(hint: think resource management)

What I'm asking for is a reduction in the gratuitous add-ons to the game, not any change to the core. removing the BTS based ammo, for example, changes nothing about the nature of game.

Well, it makes high ARM low BTS infantry just as good as high ARM high BTS infantry. I think a lot of players see value in a distinction between those units.

**Red Harvest**

Not at all. Hacking works very well against high ARM low BTS units-- except maybe the hillbilly faction. Why have high ARM if it can just be by-passed?

**NuggzTheNinja**

Red Harvest wrote:
Not at all. Hacking works very well against high ARM low BTS units-- except maybe the hillbilly faction. Why have high ARM if it can just be by-passed?

It can only just be bypassed by special ammunition, which also happens to be mediocre against low armor high BTS units. You also have low ARM high BTS units that aren't hackable (lots of LI are like this, especially elite LI).

It's a dichotomy that needs to exist in the game to separate high tech specialized units from low tech units with rifle plates bolted to their shoulders. Failing to include ammo types that make you roll BTS removes a huge technological divide from the game...I'm really struggling to understand why you would even want to do so. It's not that hard to remember these ammo types, and if your opponent uses lots of viral weapons then he'll know the rules anyway. What are we supposed to do - say screw Loup Garous, Lasiqs, every unit that depends on viral weapons for its lethality?