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Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

I'm just quoting you to avoid a massive pyramid, but I would like to reaffirm I'm not saying they generate bullets out of thin air, because that's unbelievable to an Ork. No Ork is going to believe an unloaded weapon would fire. But they might just believe that, to use my earlier example, bolter rounds they found would be fine cuz it fits in the gun and its load and lots of dakka. That's the difference. Believing something means there needs to be real belief. They might say "If I think it it happens," but they dont believe it, so it doesn't work.

But aren't you saying you think an Ork could fire an unloaded gun if he - and enough of his pals, I guess - believed that this is possible?

(edit: didn't realise how far behind I was in the conversation when I made this post, apologies. Here it is anyway

 Deadshot wrote:
Oldcrons had C'tan which literally made up laws of physics as it pleased them. So powerful they had to be Sharded for a new codex because even fluffwise they were OOOOOP. And the thing with Necrons is their tech doesn't break laws of physics, they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet. Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

That's more advanced than Craftworld Eldar who have someone shout at a tree until it grows into a gun. And speaking of tech only working because you think it: how do Eldar make their gun shoot? They have to think it shoots.

Personally I'm not big on overuse of the ork Gellarfield, but from one perspective, it is just a variant of psychically operated machinery.

nareik wrote:
(edit: didn't realise how far behind I was in the conversation when I made this post, apologies. Here it is anyway

 Deadshot wrote:
Oldcrons had C'tan which literally made up laws of physics as it pleased them. So powerful they had to be Sharded for a new codex because even fluffwise they were OOOOOP. And the thing with Necrons is their tech doesn't break laws of physics, they make use of laws humans haven't discovered or understand yet. Orks slap a tube and a trigger onto a box and it fires .50 rounds, somehow.

That's more advanced than Craftworld Eldar who have someone shout at a tree until it grows into a gun. And speaking of tech only working because you think it: how do Eldar make their gun shoot? They have to think it shoots.

Personally I'm not big on overuse of the ork Gellarfield, but from one perspective, it is just a variant of psychically operated machinery.

Huh, now that's an interesting skew on it. I'd be happier if Orks intentionally built psychic mechanisms into their technology (or even just safety catches so non-Orks can't fire them). That's something that only the Eldar do, so it would make Orks more intelligent which is always a good thing.

I'm happier with the way the Eldar's tech works because that's the entire basis of their technology-tree. Everything they make is psychically operated, and a large proportion is psychically powered. It fits with the rest of their fluff.

With Orks, their two sides appear to be in opposition. On the one hand, they're hard-coded with an incredible level of specific intelligence regarding machinery by the most technologically capable race in the galaxy. On the other hand, their stuff only works because they believe it does.

I like the two ideas so far that marry the two. Either 'the gestalt field doesn't really affect technology at all, it's all misinformation', or 'Ork technoloy contains psychic triggers and mechanisms, just like their fellow Old-One creations the Eldar, that the Imperium barely understands to misappropriates it as 'magic''

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

I'm just quoting you to avoid a massive pyramid, but I would like to reaffirm I'm not saying they generate bullets out of thin air, because that's unbelievable to an Ork. No Ork is going to believe an unloaded weapon would fire. But they might just believe that, to use my earlier example, bolter rounds they found would be fine cuz it fits in the gun and its load and lots of dakka. That's the difference. Believing something means there needs to be real belief. They might say "If I think it it happens," but they dont believe it, so it doesn't work.

I feel like there's a fundamental conflict between the idea that 'orks have inherent genetic knowledge of technology' and 'orks are unable to tell that round pegs do not fit in square holes but it magically doesn't matter.' Are they able to interact with technology in their own jury-rigged idiom, or does the world just bend around them because they're too lazy to care about shapes?

If orks find a cache of bolter rounds that don't fit in their guns, I would think that they would either exchange their guns for ones that do fire bolter rounds or modify their existing guns to do so in some slapdash fashion.

Edit: Ynnead, you and I really seem on the same wavelength here, heh. The idea of Ork technology having Eldar-like psychic triggers is not how I view it, but that is an idea that at least fits within the setting to me. It's the kind of idea that I could get behind as an unconfirmed theory, even though I prefer the more physical rationale.

theocracity wrote:

Edit: Ynnead, you and I really seem on the same wavelength here, heh. The idea of Ork technology having Eldar-like psychic triggers is not how I view it, but that is an idea that at least fits within the setting to me. It's the kind of idea that I could get behind as an unconfirmed theory, even though I prefer the more physical rationale.

Haha I was thinking the same thing

I love the idea of never really explaining anything in 40k, but just giving out 4 or 5 different unexplained theories so people have to work out which one (if any!) is most plausible

theocracity wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

I'm just quoting you to avoid a massive pyramid, but I would like to reaffirm I'm not saying they generate bullets out of thin air, because that's unbelievable to an Ork. No Ork is going to believe an unloaded weapon would fire. But they might just believe that, to use my earlier example, bolter rounds they found would be fine cuz it fits in the gun and its load and lots of dakka. That's the difference. Believing something means there needs to be real belief. They might say "If I think it it happens," but they dont believe it, so it doesn't work.

I feel like there's a fundamental conflict between the idea that 'orks have inherent genetic knowledge of technology' and 'orks are unable to tell that round pegs do not fit in square holes but it magically doesn't matter.' Are they able to interact with technology in their own jury-rigged idiom, or does the world just bend around them because they're too lazy to care about shapes?

If orks find a cache of bolter rounds that don't fit in their guns, I would think that they would either exchange their guns for ones that do fire bolter rounds or modify their existing guns to do so in some slapdash fashion.

Edit: Ynnead, you and I really seem on the same wavelength here, heh. The idea of Ork technology having Eldar-like psychic triggers is not how I view it, but that is an idea that at least fits within the setting to me. It's the kind of idea that I could get behind as an unconfirmed theory, even though I prefer the more physical rationale.

Well, round pegs fit into square holes if you hit them hard enough, which is exactly what an Ork would do. He knows its not designed to do that, but he wants to do, so by Gork he's gonna Krump that round peg square.


I think this is just a matter of opinion on which is the better and more likely option. You think rational explanations are in order and I think that Fungoid Gorilla Space Football Hooligans that warp reality by their collective belief in that concept, powered by the literal embodiment of chaos which also serves as Hell, is THE most 40K thing you could possibly come up with. Like, literally no other setting would come up with some so rediculously convoluted, complex and terrifying that it becomes the comic relief of the setting.

Personally I'm gonna keep going with the Gestalt field theory because I find it more accurate and making more sense.

 Deadshot wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

I'm just quoting you to avoid a massive pyramid, but I would like to reaffirm I'm not saying they generate bullets out of thin air, because that's unbelievable to an Ork. No Ork is going to believe an unloaded weapon would fire. But they might just believe that, to use my earlier example, bolter rounds they found would be fine cuz it fits in the gun and its load and lots of dakka. That's the difference. Believing something means there needs to be real belief. They might say "If I think it it happens," but they dont believe it, so it doesn't work.

I feel like there's a fundamental conflict between the idea that 'orks have inherent genetic knowledge of technology' and 'orks are unable to tell that round pegs do not fit in square holes but it magically doesn't matter.' Are they able to interact with technology in their own jury-rigged idiom, or does the world just bend around them because they're too lazy to care about shapes?

If orks find a cache of bolter rounds that don't fit in their guns, I would think that they would either exchange their guns for ones that do fire bolter rounds or modify their existing guns to do so in some slapdash fashion.

Edit: Ynnead, you and I really seem on the same wavelength here, heh. The idea of Ork technology having Eldar-like psychic triggers is not how I view it, but that is an idea that at least fits within the setting to me. It's the kind of idea that I could get behind as an unconfirmed theory, even though I prefer the more physical rationale.

Well, round pegs fit into square holes if you hit them hard enough, which is exactly what an Ork would do. He knows its not designed to do that, but he wants to do, so by Gork he's gonna Krump that round peg square.


I think this is just a matter of opinion on which is the better and more likely option. You think rational explanations are in order and I think that Fungoid Gorilla Space Football Hooligans that warp reality by their collective belief in that concept, powered by the literal embodiment of chaos which also serves as Hell, is THE most 40K thing you could possibly come up with. Like, literally no other setting would come up with some so rediculously convoluted, complex and terrifying that it becomes the comic relief of the setting.

Personally I'm gonna keep going with the Gestalt field theory because I find it more accurate and making more sense.

Different strokes for different folks

That's the beauty of having a number of different suggestions of what might cause something, rather than just the one solid explanation. People can pick the thing that makes the most sense to their interpretation of the universe

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Let's bring this back around to the main topic - conceding that the Waaagh is a psychic field generated by Orks getting together and that said psychic field has some affect on material reality. These things aren't really in dispute. The question is, do Orks guns use actual ammo that has to be manufactured or does the Waaagh phenomenon mean that Ork guns don't need material ammunition in order to fire?

I'm just quoting you to avoid a massive pyramid, but I would like to reaffirm I'm not saying they generate bullets out of thin air, because that's unbelievable to an Ork. No Ork is going to believe an unloaded weapon would fire. But they might just believe that, to use my earlier example, bolter rounds they found would be fine cuz it fits in the gun and its load and lots of dakka. That's the difference. Believing something means there needs to be real belief. They might say "If I think it it happens," but they dont believe it, so it doesn't work.

I feel like there's a fundamental conflict between the idea that 'orks have inherent genetic knowledge of technology' and 'orks are unable to tell that round pegs do not fit in square holes but it magically doesn't matter.' Are they able to interact with technology in their own jury-rigged idiom, or does the world just bend around them because they're too lazy to care about shapes?

If orks find a cache of bolter rounds that don't fit in their guns, I would think that they would either exchange their guns for ones that do fire bolter rounds or modify their existing guns to do so in some slapdash fashion.

Edit: Ynnead, you and I really seem on the same wavelength here, heh. The idea of Ork technology having Eldar-like psychic triggers is not how I view it, but that is an idea that at least fits within the setting to me. It's the kind of idea that I could get behind as an unconfirmed theory, even though I prefer the more physical rationale.

Well, round pegs fit into square holes if you hit them hard enough, which is exactly what an Ork would do. He knows its not designed to do that, but he wants to do, so by Gork he's gonna Krump that round peg square.


I think this is just a matter of opinion on which is the better and more likely option. You think rational explanations are in order and I think that Fungoid Gorilla Space Football Hooligans that warp reality by their collective belief in that concept, powered by the literal embodiment of chaos which also serves as Hell, is THE most 40K thing you could possibly come up with. Like, literally no other setting would come up with some so rediculously convoluted, complex and terrifying that it becomes the comic relief of the setting.

Personally I'm gonna keep going with the Gestalt field theory because I find it more accurate and making more sense.

Different strokes for different folks

That's the beauty of having a number of different suggestions of what might cause something, rather than just the one solid explanation. People can pick the thing that makes the most sense to their interpretation of the universe

I agree on that but only in certain situations. Like, X chapter are able to have X snowflake trait because X, that's cool, but on levels like, how a race fundamentally operate, I'd personally prefer a straight up answer with a bunch of theories surrounding it, in universe only. Try to guess what actually happened to the Fire Hawks or whatever just leaves it too open to bad fanfiction, and when enough people jump on that bandwagon, GW makes it canon, which is bad. Its like JK Rowling confirming X fantheory is true when she never thought of it before in her life. Have some control and pride in your work.

It seems to me that many of the previous conceptualizations of the Ork 'gestalt-field' attempt to downplay or discredit its effect in an effort to harmonize
a fluff staple with a very narrow perception of both the ork as a being as well as the materium/immaterium dynamic as a whole. When the Old Ones created the
Krorks they did so albeit out of need, but with a trained and delicate hand long experienced with biogenesis. Having created the Eldar and multiple other
sentient species, the Old Ones certainly understood the inextricable duality between psychically resonant species and the warp. As such not only did they need
to fabricate the physiological parameters of the species but also its instincts, temperament, proclivities, and I would argue most importantly- the nature of
its warp presence.

To illustrate both the significance of this design element as well as the 'standard' approach taken by the Old Ones we should examine early Eldar myth/history.
Created before the Krorks as perhaps more of an artistic expression than necessity, these new beings were created to be unanimously psychic and
capable of a great depth emotion. Any being endowed with the power to generate new warp sensitive species would obviously be aware of the dangers of the
immaterium. Thus the Eldar mind and body were crafted in a specific manner such that the resonance of their minds and emotions in the warp would coalesce into
specific gods. Simply put, the energetical impact of an angry Eldar intent on destruction or the development of martial prowess does not fuel Khorne but
rather Khaine. Only by outstripping the depth of these archetypes did the Eldar manage to shatter their pantheon, leaving themselves naked to the void.

The Krorks however, were not crafted as a delicate gem capable of greatness in all directions, they were engineered as weapon to do battle with the Necrontyr
and prevent the destruction of the Eldar and perhaps even the destruction of the Old Ones themselves. Thus, they are spore based for efficient reproduction and
transportation; extremely resilient, resourceful, and possessing of a particular propensity for destruction- reducing the need for close management or timely
logistics support; they are also all at least latently psychic, creating a cumulative field around all Krork that literally weakens the barrier between realspace
and the immaterium. This has enumerable benefits, it provides an opportunity for subconscious influence and communication, it facilitates the manifestation of
patently ridiculous powers by the skilled, it also allows for the conscious or autonomic manipulation of realspace by warp based entities. In this case that
entity is the specifically crafted Krork warp presence. It is both the reflection of the Krork nature as well as its very essence.

But just as the Eldar were able alter their very afterlife given enough time, so to did the Krork evolve across the passage of millennia. With the fall of the
the Old Ones to the warp based enslaver plague, conscientious management of the Krorks was no longer possible. Over the eons both Krork and their corresponding
warp presence shifted and changed. Perhaps this happened naturally as an adaptation to alterations in the make-up of real space and the
corresponding effect on immaterium as new species evolved and grew to prominence, just as the ancient races slept or died. Whatever the cause, the result is
clear: the evolution of Space Orks and their altered warp presence- Gork and Mork.

This new race is not without its idiosyncrasies, likely side affects from a lengthy and unplanned evolution in unforeseen conditions. The mania or madness that
separates them from their carefully crafted ancestors, maybe analogous to quirks developed in a computer program left running far longer than designed. In any
case all these changes concurrently altered the Krorks warp presence into Gork and Mork, a parody or perversion of the undoubtedly masterfully created warrior
archetype that was the 'god' of the Krorks. Gork and Mork do not exist in the warpscape in which their progenitors were designed. The Eldar pantheon is mostly
slain, the gods of chaos have risen to great power and even increased in number, shadows fall on the periphery, multiple rifts between real and warp space have
been rent, and a new deafening cacophony of untold billions of humans has been added to the mix. All of these factors have contrived to twist the nature of the
Krork into the reality of the Ork. As such things are a bit silly. Gork and Mork know that shootas shoot and bombs explode, just as an ork knows that
choppas chop and red goes faster. That,s not to say everyone involved doesn't have to go through the motions. Obviously a piece of tech that has been hammered on
intently will work to greater effect than a relatively ignored piece. This happens because it has always worked that way. The Krork was grown from a spore knowing
the working of tech instinctually because it was programmed into its very nature for the purpose of creating a better weapon, a warrior race capable of utilizing
whatever was at hand to achieve victory. These core values still exist in forty-first millennium Orks because it is the only reason they have survived as a species.
They Waaghh! because that is what the Orks and the warp presence that surrounds and represents them was designed to do. It works because this inextricable duality
between Ork and Gork & Mork was originally fabricated to win the wars of the Krorks. The Orks and their gods were unintentionally released from control and have
been altered by the shifting powers of the warp and realspace.

This process is also unlikely to slow down or become in anyway more reasonable. At first a Krork grew to maturity knowing the science behind his actions instinctually,
information privy to it because of being latently psychic and in communion with the warp. Following the death of the Old Ones the surviving Krorks may still have
instinctually performed the scientifically correct processes to create warmachines, but with less understanding of underlying principles. This process continued through to
the modern Ork who knows that the little guys have to slave about, and the mek boys have to hammer stuff, and the doc has to use a staple gun; but the aesthetics of
the actions as far more important than the physical reality because Gork and Mork know how to Waagh! They always have and it will always work as long as there is an
Ork to take the fight to an enemy.

The basic idea is that no matter how technically correct any Ork construct may or may not be, the impetus for its creation sprung from ancestral knowledge stored within
the warp in the form of Gork and Mork. Thus whether they just know how to build something awesome naturally or a piece of insane junk just works, it is exactly the same
kind of force that is at work when Nurgle sends a plague, or Slaanesh seduces a heart, or Tzeentch turns a few unseen knobs. The sum of all Ork knowledge and power is
derived from its presence in the warp, transmitted via a two-way 'gestalt field', and manifested in the form of the Ork, the impossible tech, and the Waagh!