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Grav cannons and grav guns won't be bombards.

Do you think grav will retain it's relatively high RoF?

It is ap-4 and not a mortal wound because you still get your invuln from grav. Honestly swarmlord would KO that thing in one turm more than likely and that even includes taking the overwatch. They are around the same points though.

 Gloomfang wrote:
It is ap-4 and not a mortal wound because you still get your invuln from grav. Honestly swarmlord would KO that thing in one turm more than likely and that even includes taking the overwatch. They are around the same points though.

Mathematically speaking that's not true. The swarm lord has 7 attacks which will be hitting on 2+, wounding on 4+, having to get past a 4++ and doing on average 3.5 damage. 7x5/6x1/2x1/2x3.5 = 5.1hps on average.
Lets assume the Leviathan player has decided not to go for any ranged upgrades for some reason (which would severely have weakened the Swamlord if he had) and instead has 2 drills. Lets also assume the meltas and flamers have done no damage whatsoever. The Leviathan has 5 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, having to get past a 4++ and doing 4 damage each time. 5x5/6x5/6x1/2x4 = 6.9hps on average

So EVEN IF the Leviathan has done no shooting damage to the SwarmLord AND the SwarmLord got the charge - the Leviathan is still in its top band on 9 wounds, whilst the SwamLord is now in the middle of its middle band on 5 wounds.

The SwarmLord will not KO the Leviathan.

You aren't accounting for who is striking first too. If the Swarmlord goes first, he will make the Dread strike only on 3+ at that point.

When all is said and done, the Swarmlord can actually knock it out compared to the last iteration of either unit, where the Swarmlord couldn't even really crack a regular Dreadnought.

I did. I even wrote into it that I had. If the SwamLord strikes first, he will cause 5.1hps on average which does not take the Leviathan down to mid-band. The above Maths is considering the SwamLord strikes first. If not it's even worse for him.

Need to redo the mathhammer. I forgot to adjust to the Dread toughness when causing wounds. So far it is close as SL drops the Dread down to 4 wounds and the end of the fight phase.

Here are the things I think you missed.

OK, lets lay out the ground assumptions. Swarmlord gets the charge, Leviathan has Grav-flux and drill. Also lets assume that the turn goes as follows

Move
Psychic
Shooting
Charge
Fight
Morale

So SL moves closer to Leviathan in movement so it is closest model in movement phase

Psychic SL casts catalyst on itself (5+ FNP), Cast Smite x2(they have not said rule of 1 is in 40K) so between 2-12W done with no saves allowed. So lets 5w between the 2 and assume i used a CP. If he cant use smite twice then the 5wounds can still tand becasue of warp blast or psyscream. The point is he does a ton of damage in the psychic phase.

In the shooting phase close the distance so the charge will go off by using Hive Commander.

Charge declare charge: D3 Grav shots: Lets say 2 hit. 5++ so lets say one unsaved. 5 damage so FNP saves 1W so that 4W delt to SL dropping him to 8W.

Fight: SL goes first so 7 attacks at 2+ so 6 hits. 3 get saved with the 4++. Its 3D6 so average rounded down would be 10 wounds. 5 Wound. Dreadnought drops to 4 wounds.

Dread hits back with 4 attacks at 3+ to hit. 2 hit. One is saved and one does 2 damage (Assuming that the 4++ and FNP averages out to 2 wounds taken).

So SL would be hurt (down a band at 6W), but the dread would be at 4W.

Pretty sure the Dread would die next round as he is hurt worse and SL still has his 5+FNP.

Be closer than I thought.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Need to redo the mathhammer. I forgot to adjust to the Dread toughness when causing wounds. So far it is close as SL drops the Dread down to 4 wounds and the end of the fight phase.

Here are the things I think you missed.

OK, lets lay out the ground assumptions. Swarmlord gets the charge, Leviathan has Grav-flux and drill. Also lets assume that the turn goes as follows

Move
Psychic
Shooting
Charge
Fight
Morale

So SL moves closer to Leviathan in movement so it is closest model in movement phase

Psychic SL casts catalyst on itself (5+ FNP), Cast Smite x2(they have not said rule of 1 is in 40K) so between 2-12W done with no saves allowed. So lets 5w between the 2 and assume i used a CP. If he cant use smite twice then the 5wounds can still tand becasue of warp blast or psyscream. The point is he does a ton of damage in the psychic phase.

In the shooting phase close the distance so the charge will go off by using Hive Commander.

Charge declare charge: D3 Grav shots: Lets say 2 hit. 5++ so lets say one unsaved. 5 damage so FNP saves 1W so that 4W delt to SL dropping him to 8W.

Fight: SL goes first so 7 attacks at 2+ so 6 hits. 3 get saved with the 4++. Its 3D6 so average rounded down would be 10 wounds. 5 Wound. Dreadnought drops to 4 wounds.

Dread hits back with 4 attacks at 3+ to hit. 2 hit. One is saved and one does 2 damage (Assuming that the 4++ and FNP averages out to 2 wounds taken).

So SL would be hurt (down a band at 6W), but the dread would be at 4W.

Pretty sure the Dread would die next round as he is hurt worse and SL still has his 5+FNP.

Be closer than I thought.

This whole fight sounds awesome. I am now even more excited than I was.

Luckilly, Forgeworld is illegal.

 koooaei wrote:
Luckilly, Forgeworld is illegal.

No it's not...

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Luckilly, Forgeworld is illegal.

No it's not...

Yeah, not even a little. Leastways not at any major tournies.

Restricted maybe but not illegal.

Forgeworld being illegal is a tradition.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Need to redo the mathhammer. I forgot to adjust to the Dread toughness when causing wounds. So far it is close as SL drops the Dread down to 4 wounds and the end of the fight phase.

Here are the things I think you missed.

OK, lets lay out the ground assumptions. Swarmlord gets the charge, Leviathan has Grav-flux and drill. Also lets assume that the turn goes as follows

Move
Psychic
Shooting
Charge
Fight
Morale

So SL moves closer to Leviathan in movement so it is closest model in movement phase

Psychic SL casts catalyst on itself (5+ FNP), Cast Smite x2(they have not said rule of 1 is in 40K) so between 2-12W done with no saves allowed. So lets 5w between the 2 and assume i used a CP. If he cant use smite twice then the 5wounds can still tand becasue of warp blast or psyscream. The point is he does a ton of damage in the psychic phase.

In the shooting phase close the distance so the charge will go off by using Hive Commander.

Charge declare charge: D3 Grav shots: Lets say 2 hit. 5++ so lets say one unsaved. 5 damage so FNP saves 1W so that 4W delt to SL dropping him to 8W.

Fight: SL goes first so 7 attacks at 2+ so 6 hits. 3 get saved with the 4++. Its 3D6 so average rounded down would be 10 wounds. 5 Wound. Dreadnought drops to 4 wounds.

Dread hits back with 4 attacks at 3+ to hit. 2 hit. One is saved and one does 2 damage (Assuming that the 4++ and FNP averages out to 2 wounds taken).

So SL would be hurt (down a band at 6W), but the dread would be at 4W.

Pretty sure the Dread would die next round as he is hurt worse and SL still has his 5+FNP.

Be closer than I thought.

So if the Leviathan has a ranged weapon it never gets to use against the SL apart from in overwatch, the SL gets off every single psychic power, the Leviathan doesn't use his flamers (that will score over a wound on average by themselves) or other meltagun on overwatch, we round favourably for the SLs hits, assume he automatically makes all the 4+ 'to wound rolls (you went straight from hits to saves, bypassing wounds), round unfavourably for the Leviathans return hits AND assume the SL gets the charge... Yeh it is pretty close.

Or we could be realistic and assume the Leviathan gets to shoot at least once OR has 2 siege drills - Can't have your cake and eat it. Lets also assume the player doesn't forget about his flamers and melta, that the Swarmlord isn't always going to pass every psychic roll he ever attempts, that the Leviathan will also be able to be buffed just like the SwarmLord and that the SwarmLord doesn't automatically wound (since he is actually supposed to be wounding on 4+). Still can assume the SL always gets the charge if you like though...

 koooaei wrote:
Forgeworld being illegal is a tradition.

That's been dead for 5 years...

 koooaei wrote:
Forgeworld being illegal is a tradition.

An inherently worthless tradition, that needs to be utterly purged from community consciousness. There is no legitimate reason to ban all FW models, in any case.

 Verviedi wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Forgeworld being illegal is a tradition.

An inherently worthless tradition, that needs to be utterly purged from community consciousness. There is no legitimate reason to ban all FW models, in any case.

Completely and utterly agree!

 koooaei wrote:
Forgeworld being illegal is a tradition.

So was human sacrifice and slavery at one point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Need to redo the mathhammer. I forgot to adjust to the Dread toughness when causing wounds. So far it is close as SL drops the Dread down to 4 wounds and the end of the fight phase.

Here are the things I think you missed.

OK, lets lay out the ground assumptions. Swarmlord gets the charge, Leviathan has Grav-flux and drill. Also lets assume that the turn goes as follows

Move
Psychic
Shooting
Charge
Fight
Morale

So SL moves closer to Leviathan in movement so it is closest model in movement phase

Psychic SL casts catalyst on itself (5+ FNP), Cast Smite x2(they have not said rule of 1 is in 40K) so between 2-12W done with no saves allowed. So lets 5w between the 2 and assume i used a CP. If he cant use smite twice then the 5wounds can still tand becasue of warp blast or psyscream. The point is he does a ton of damage in the psychic phase.

In the shooting phase close the distance so the charge will go off by using Hive Commander.

Charge declare charge: D3 Grav shots: Lets say 2 hit. 5++ so lets say one unsaved. 5 damage so FNP saves 1W so that 4W delt to SL dropping him to 8W.

Fight: SL goes first so 7 attacks at 2+ so 6 hits. 3 get saved with the 4++. Its 3D6 so average rounded down would be 10 wounds. 5 Wound. Dreadnought drops to 4 wounds.

Dread hits back with 4 attacks at 3+ to hit. 2 hit. One is saved and one does 2 damage (Assuming that the 4++ and FNP averages out to 2 wounds taken).

So SL would be hurt (down a band at 6W), but the dread would be at 4W.

Pretty sure the Dread would die next round as he is hurt worse and SL still has his 5+FNP.

Be closer than I thought.

So if the Leviathan has a ranged weapon it never gets to use against the SL apart from in overwatch, the SL gets off every single psychic power, the Leviathan doesn't use his flamers (that will score over a wound on average by themselves) or other meltagun on overwatch, we round favourably for the SLs hits, assume he automatically makes all the 4+ 'to wound rolls (you went straight from hits to saves, bypassing wounds), round unfavourably for the Leviathans return hits AND assume the SL gets the charge... Yeh it is pretty close.

Or we could be realistic and assume the Leviathan gets to shoot at least once OR has 2 siege drills - Can't have your cake and eat it. Lets also assume the player doesn't forget about his flamers and melta, that the Swarmlord isn't always going to pass every psychic roll he ever attempts, that the Leviathan will also be able to be buffed just like the SwarmLord and that the SwarmLord doesn't automatically wound (since he is actually supposed to be wounding on 4+). Still can assume the SL always gets the charge if you like though...

Tyrannocyte drop bro. With the swarmlord's special ability he can get a guaranteed charge outta a Tcyte every time and still gets psychic. Admittedly the Levi can do the same so it's all about who has second turn

That would account for point one not the others. But brings in other assumptions itself.

 koooaei wrote:
Luckilly, Forgeworld is illegal.

Please, stop trolling.

Actually we don't know if the weapons of the swarmolrd given him x2 strenght or something like that. So maybe the Swarmlord could wound the Dreadnough in 2+ too.

Other than OverWatch the Dreadnaught was not allowed to fire because the Swarm Lord's charge range is larger than the range on the grav or the melta.

Also the SL is a lv 3 psyker. Pretty sure he will get off his powers.

Not sure if OverWatch is you get to fire all your weapons or just the one weapon know. If you can fire your other melta and flamethrower then yeah we'll be stupid to charge the swarmlord in until something else is engaged with it.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Luckilly, Forgeworld is illegal.

No it's not...

Shhh! You'll ruin my black market resin business!

Want some Vanaheim pattern gunshields? The first hit is free.

That's a fair point, but tbf anyone in their right mind would just make sure other units prevent that happening by roadblocking, then if the SwarmLord charges those units they could just disengage and hit it with the Leviathans weapons the turn after.
We don't know the cost of the powers or what they do aside from smite so it would be very difficult to assume he would get them all off and that (aside from smite) that they could legitimately harm a Leviathan.
As to the point above yours about the SwarmLords strength - it specifically said in the article that he hits with st8.

Do we know how the Swarmlord suffers from Wounds? You're assuming the Dreadnought's effectiveness drops off with damage but that the Swarmlord's does not.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Do we know how the Swarmlord suffers from Wounds? You're assuming the Dreadnought's effectiveness drops off with damage but that the Swarmlord's does not.

We have we have both charts. The swarmlord doesn't start to lose Effectiveness until he drops below seven wounds.

Of course we are taking them in a vacuum. The naughty will have screening troops and SL will have his guard.

Still SL averages a 32"+1" charge with Hive commander so that is much further than the range on melta and grab.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Do we know how the Swarmlord suffers from Wounds?

Yeah.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tyranids/

How are you figuring 32? The SL moves 18 with hive command and charges 2d6 from there.

 Roknar wrote:
How are you figuring 32? The SL moves 18 with hive command and charges 2d6 from there.

Sorry, it's only 29"+1”

You get a move and advance in your movement so 9"+ d6

Then Hive commander gives you 9" but you don't advance so you can charge 2d6.

Got it mixed up with Genestealer rule. Can't advance twice with SL.

You also cannot advance and charge I think. I don't get why. But i think one of the articles said that.

 Lance845 wrote:
You also cannot advance and charge I think. I don't get why. But i think one of the articles said that.

Advancing is Movement + Running. You risk your shooting in hopes for better overall movement. Much like editions before it, some units will have ways around it.