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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

 Gamgee wrote:
I should have specified I want them to be "strong" as in a great speed bump. I still don't think they will though. The more of them you add in the more shots the damn gun gets against hordes. Read man READ! Forcing larger and larger leadership tests the bigger the unit size gets you get the more you lose.
Personally, if my opponent uses a turn of his amazing shooting on my chaff unit, I'd say the chaff unit won in that exchange. "Oh you shot at my clearly placed speed bump unit instead of my larger, scarier, and more powerful units? Thanks!" Tactics man TACTICS!
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Also Gamgee you got the rules wrong. It's D3 not D6.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Yeah why waste big gun like grav at KROOT? Good for tau if it does

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Gamgee wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.



Well that isn't all that h2h thing. If you take that for cc agaimpt tau you are doing something wrong.

And apart from suits(that ard tough to catch) units won't die in cc. Not that many attacks

I don't understand what your typing sorry.

Edit
The Tau gun's we've seen have been pretty tame to be honest and doesn't inspire hope our firepower has dramatically increased. If anything it's looking to have decreased significantly.


We can only hope. I'm tired of autolosing to interceptor spam tau. Currently tau are the ultimate bully list,autowinning vs about 75% of the game with no effort.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 18:35:35


 
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.

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Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The kroot squad better lose to this thing.. Especially if people are estimating 350-400 points fully upgraded. You are sending a third/half of a things points at something and are surprised that your unit loses?

Weight of power. If you send 100 points against 400 points, typically the 400 points wins... Even the crises team is cheaper (I assume, been awhile since I've seen tau) then this thing is probably going to be.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.
Uh...how do you figure? We only know pieces of the rules and the stats for a handful of units. Also, how do you have power creep when everything is getting released at the same time? The sky is not falling.
   
Made in se
Freaky Flayed One





 Amanax wrote:
The kroot squad better lose to this thing.. Especially if people are estimating 350-400 points fully upgraded.


The cost of it is 15 Power. The cost of a Knight is 23 Power. So it will likely cost below 300 points even upgraded if there is any relation to the Power levels.

   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Cmdr_Sune wrote:
 Amanax wrote:
The kroot squad better lose to this thing.. Especially if people are estimating 350-400 points fully upgraded.


The cost of it is 15 Power. The cost of a Knight is 23 Power. So it will likely cost below 300 points even upgraded if there is any relation to the Power levels.



14w model vs 24w model. Almost double the wounds with a Knight having more access to mortal wounds and their weapons in general dealing a higher number of damage.

We haven't actually seen a knights datasheet yet either so we have no idea how all their extra little bits will actually work.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





MilkmanAl wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.
Uh...how do you figure? We only know pieces of the rules and the stats for a handful of units. Also, how do you have power creep when everything is getting released at the same time? The sky is not falling.

cmon only a stupid cant see it... dont you think if they do a profile like that will be many other things can compete with it? so you gonna fight power creep with power creep, that's what destroyed 7th edition. btw we will see jun 17th who is right.

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 blackmage wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.
Uh...how do you figure? We only know pieces of the rules and the stats for a handful of units. Also, how do you have power creep when everything is getting released at the same time? The sky is not falling.

cmon only a stupid cant see it... dont you think if they do a profile like that will be many other things can compete with it? so you gonna fight power creep with power creep, that's what destroyed 7th edition. btw we will see jun 17th who is right.


Miscosted units killed 7th. Power creep is fine if its costed appropriately.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

I think AP -5 tells us a little about how saves work, since a -5 means not even TEQ get a save. If no one gets a save, why not just call that mortal wounds instead? I think the reason it's -5 and not mortal wounds is that you could get a save, and the only way for that to happen is if save modifiers allow you to get less than a 2+ save, with ones always failing. The question then becomes can you start that low, does say a Emperor class titan have a -1 save value, meaning even las cannons can't get around it's armor?

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Martel732 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.
Uh...how do you figure? We only know pieces of the rules and the stats for a handful of units. Also, how do you have power creep when everything is getting released at the same time? The sky is not falling.

cmon only a stupid cant see it... dont you think if they do a profile like that will be many other things can compete with it? so you gonna fight power creep with power creep, that's what destroyed 7th edition. btw we will see jun 17th who is right.


Miscosted units killed 7th. Power creep is fine if its costed appropriately.
hrm, theres no properly costing some power creep, particularly once we start getting into issues of scale, once games start becoming godzilla battles, trying to balance the ant-like infantry becomes very difficult, particularly as micromanagement on one side becomes dramatically more important than on the other. Or, alternatively, when stuff works through mechanics that not everything has a reasonable answer to (e.g. psychic powers). Lots of stuff cant be dealt with by points alone, though that is not to say that there were not tons of issues in that department as well.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't know. For any given unit, you can find a price where it isn't an auto-take. That's close enough to balanced for me. It might just be too costly to move the model sales-wise for the old regime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 19:47:39


 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.


Power creep is the phenomenon of new releases getting steadily more powerful over time compared to previous releases. You cannot have power creep on an unreleased game. That's nonsense.


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 docdoom77 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.


Power creep is the phenomenon of new releases getting steadily more powerful over time compared to previous releases. You cannot have power creep on an unreleased game. That's nonsense.



At least more powerful without getting more expensive.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grimgold wrote:
I think AP -5 tells us a little about how saves work, since a -5 means not even TEQ get a save. If no one gets a save, why not just call that mortal wounds instead? I think the reason it's -5 and not mortal wounds is that you could get a save, and the only way for that to happen is if save modifiers allow you to get less than a 2+ save, with ones always failing. The question then becomes can you start that low, does say a Emperor class titan have a -1 save value, meaning even las cannons can't get around it's armor?


Well, mortal wounds also get around Invulnerable saves, so this is pretty much "almost nothing in the game gets a save against this, and even if you do it's a bad one, unless it's an invul save".

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Chicago, IL

I was a little worried having purchased one of these guy about 2 months ago, and even though they said that forgeworld's stuff wouldn't be updated for the new additions I still had reservations. Seeing the Leviathan (be it a chaos version) is all I needed.

Other than that I love that it has a weapon that deal mortal wounds and its arguably the worst option.

To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I and even though they said that forgeworld's stuff wouldn't be updated for the new additions I still had reservations.


They have in fact said the exact opposite.

The only thing up in the air is the Horus Heresy and we learn about its future this weekend.
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest



UK

Aren't invulnerable saves unmodifiable? So you would use that to save against -5 ap but not against a mortal wound.

 
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Martel732 wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
poor 8th edition, i can call it 7.2 edition, power creep is rampaging. sad face.
Uh...how do you figure? We only know pieces of the rules and the stats for a handful of units. Also, how do you have power creep when everything is getting released at the same time? The sky is not falling.

cmon only a stupid cant see it... dont you think if they do a profile like that will be many other things can compete with it? so you gonna fight power creep with power creep, that's what destroyed 7th edition. btw we will see jun 17th who is right.


Miscosted units killed 7th. Power creep is fine if its costed appropriately.

uhmmmn no power creep is power creep is like play who has the biggest nuclear bomb

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Chicago, IL

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I and even though they said that forgeworld's stuff wouldn't be updated for the new additions I still had reservations.


They have in fact said the exact opposite.

The only thing up in the air is the Horus Heresy and we learn about its future this weekend.

I actually knew that, and thought I wrote would be but I clearly didn't write that. Thanks for catching it. I'm just going to blame it on spell check.

To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I and even though they said that forgeworld's stuff wouldn't be updated for the new additions I still had reservations.


They have in fact said the exact opposite.

The only thing up in the air is the Horus Heresy and we learn about its future this weekend.

I actually knew that, and thought I wrote would be but I clearly didn't write that. Thanks for catching it. I'm just going to blame it on spell check.


No worries man.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I don't think you understand whats the meaning of Powercreep, Blackmage.

If something older is more powerfull than something that is newer, by definition thats isn't powercreep.
An example: Riptidewing or WraitKnights vs Deahwatch or Genestealers.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Galas wrote:
I don't think you understand whats the meaning of Powercreep, Blackmage.

If something older is more powerfull than something that is newer, by definition thats isn't powercreep.
An example: Riptidewing or WraitKnights vs Deahwatch or Genestealers.


Power creep doesn't need to be a uniform linear upward slope with every release beating the last to be power creep...

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Nah, who has the biggest nuclear bomb is called real life
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I don't think you understand whats the meaning of Powercreep, Blackmage.

If something older is more powerfull than something that is newer, by definition thats isn't powercreep.
An example: Riptidewing or WraitKnights vs Deahwatch or Genestealers.


Power creep doesn't need to be a uniform linear upward slope with every release beating the last to be power creep...


Actually, yes, it needs to be.
Power creep is a process that sometimes occurs in games where new content slowly outstrip the power of previous alternatives.

GW has never done powercreep. They aren't good enough at rules-making to do that properly. Many many new kits have had completely useless rules at release, and many old kits have reamined the most powerfull unit throug a complete edition.
The fact that one thing is more powerfull that others isn't enough to call it "powercreep"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/24 21:06:41


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Galas has the right of it. GW accidentally makes power combos, that may or may not involve new model kits. In 6th, it was a bunch of circa 2000 wave serpents stomping everyone.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





 Grimgold wrote:
I think AP -5 tells us a little about how saves work, since a -5 means not even TEQ get a save. If no one gets a save, why not just call that mortal wounds instead? I think the reason it's -5 and not mortal wounds is that you could get a save, and the only way for that to happen is if save modifiers allow you to get less than a 2+ save, with ones always failing. The question then becomes can you start that low, does say a Emperor class titan have a -1 save value, meaning even las cannons can't get around it's armor?


Doesn't cover give you +1 or +2 to your armour save or whatever? That would mean that even against a -5 save, a model with a normal 2+ save in heavy cover would only have a -3 modifier (thus saving on a 5 or 6), and a model with a 3+ save in heavy cover would have a save on a six. I think that's the big differentiation from mortal wounds or what not. And I think it's terribly obvious we'll have spells which add +1 to saves, or silly auras/fields/buff zones which add saves, or add fake magical cover bonuses etc.

I hope we don't dip into the ignorant game-breaking junk of 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves etc...but I suspect we'll get there somehow and the game will take a turn toward being as bad as 7th. I can hope otherwise though.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





I had hoped 8th would see the end of grav spam and see marine players actually taking some variety in their squads. Looking at the grav weapon on that beastie does not bode well. That said, this is a forge world model, hopefully this does not carry over onto basic 40k grav. Anti everything gun is absurd. If this is what grav looks like for 8th, it better be costed darn good.

That's the only thing I have against this model. Looks good. The butcher looks interesting, probably a fluff thing behind the -2 leadership? Pinning maybe?

Aside from the grav, a solid looking model. Definitely "rule of cool" preferences coming through for the claw vs drill.
   
 
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