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Wayniac wrote:
One thing I am not happy about is that this kind of shows the issue with power levels that all the anti-narrative pro-matched only people were harping on: The claw is worse in every way to the drill, and with narrative not requiring you to pay for individual upgrades, there is literally zero reason to ever not take the drill since it's "free", since the claw is flat-out worse.

If you're truly power-gaming in narrative play you're doing it wrong, it's that simple.
If you want to play a narrative-driven 40k game with the best balance possible you're free to use the point system offered in matched play with your scenario.

Noone, including GW, ever claimed that the Power Level system is better or even as balanced as the Points System.

The loyalist version is probably going to retain the existing weapons I linked earlier. Obviously it won't get the same special rules but otherwise they'll probably be similar. I could even see the loyalist one getting the bombard as well.

nekooni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I am not happy about is that this kind of shows the issue with power levels that all the anti-narrative pro-matched only people were harping on: The claw is worse in every way to the drill, and with narrative not requiring you to pay for individual upgrades, there is literally zero reason to ever not take the drill since it's "free", since the claw is flat-out worse.

If you're truly power-gaming in narrative play you're doing it wrong, it's that simple.
If you want to play a narrative-driven 40k game with the best balance possible you're free to use the point system offered in matched play with your scenario.

Noone, including GW, ever claimed that the Power Level system is better or even as balanced as the Points System.

The thing is a lot of people, myself included, were hopeful that Power Level would provide a compromise between AOS's "play anything you want" with nothing, and Matched Play's "all points all the time" strictness. To have something that's statistically better in every way than another option is yet another point the matched play folks will use to justify why Power Level/Narrative is badwrongfun and Matched Play is the only correct way to play.

Wayniac,

The narrative power level is simply offering you a "close enough" army list. If one side power-pushes all of the best options, and the other side doesn't, yes you'll end up fielding what might be a 1500 pt. list vs an 1850 point list (equivalent). So it is open for abuse.

The benefit is speed of army building...lack of needing to remodel everything, taking what you think "looks cool" etc.

Realistically your opponent will have units which likewise have upgrades which are better etc. In theory it'd be nice for this to balance out. Seeing that some of the scenarios are already lopsided in points - this should be less of a concern.

Also, there is nothing limiting you from adopting the cool narrative scenarios/special rules and simply using Matched points if you so desire.

Can we keep the discussion more or less on topic please?
There was a thread on narrative vs matched and that got locked. We don't need another here.
Besides, it has little to nothing to do with the article I linked.

That Dreadnought look like a beast. It will eat my small boxy dreadnoughts for breakfast :(

Heck, I think he isn't gonna have problems going against a Knight even in meele, more after all the shooting he can do with that Grav cannon.

I assume he is gonna be in the 400-500 point range.

Poly Ranger wrote:
You reckon they playtested this thing?

And found the original was mildly lacking? Probably, yes.

Mine is equipped with a Claw and Melta Cannon. I reckon I can still use that for when I feel like building a Chaos list of some kind.

 Galas wrote:
That Dreadnought look like a beast. It will eat my small boxy dreadnoughts for breakfast :(

Heck, I think he isn't gonna have problems going against a Knight even in meele, more after all the shooting he can do with that Grav cannon.

I assume he is gonna be in the 400-500 point range.

No way. Not unless Knights are going into the 600-700 range. Leviathan is Power 16 and an Imperial Knight is Power 23.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That Dreadnought look like a beast. It will eat my small boxy dreadnoughts for breakfast :(

Heck, I think he isn't gonna have problems going against a Knight even in meele, more after all the shooting he can do with that Grav cannon.

I assume he is gonna be in the 400-500 point range.

No way. Not unless Knights are going into the 600-700 range. Leviathan is Power 16 and an Imperial Knight is Power 23.

I was assuming fully upgraded. The original one was 285 points but upgraded it goes to some like 350 points, and this seems much better that the original loyalist one. Maybe It will be more in the 350-450 point range (Fully upgraded)

 Galas wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That Dreadnought look like a beast. It will eat my small boxy dreadnoughts for breakfast :(

Heck, I think he isn't gonna have problems going against a Knight even in meele, more after all the shooting he can do with that Grav cannon.

I assume he is gonna be in the 400-500 point range.

No way. Not unless Knights are going into the 600-700 range. Leviathan is Power 16 and an Imperial Knight is Power 23.

I was assuming fully upgraded. The original one was 285 points but upgraded it goes to some like 350 points, and this seems much better that the original loyalist one. Maybe It will be more in the 350-450 point range (Fully upgraded)

According to what we've been told, Power is approximately fully upgraded. So a "fully upgraded" Knight is power 23 and a "fully upgraded" Leviathan is power 16. I could see that equating to 350-400 and 450-500 respectively. Ugh... I hate all this waiting. I want this info now!

Now I want to see what a Mahra'Gal is about.

Hmm, would be cool if that was ported to 40k. With the rift seemingly increasing the hold of the dark gods on the physical realm it should be possible to inter possessed and get much the same results. The gal vorbak were special and all but, different times and different circumstances. In the same way possessed could/should receive a buff...but then I'n really just looking for excuses to get me some gal vorbak lol.

WOW just look at its raw power, his thing a LOW instead of a heavy support. The power levels of 8th sure are something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
That Dreadnought look like a beast. It will eat my small boxy dreadnoughts for breakfast :(

I never imagined it but this puny imitation-kan makes me fear for my stompas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or alternatively they are going to become even crazier beasts

Not fan of yet more plague of mortal and grav weapon has very different feel to 7th ed. Wonder what kind of model this will get?

Not sure it will get a model at all. Probably just weapon options for the existing leviathan. None of the heresy era stuff has chaos versions. Of course if they are porting more heresy units into 40k as chaos that might change and I generally prefer the forgeworld aesthetics by a country mile so that would make me really really happy. Also, with rules like this, really really poor.

People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Nothing that Kroot spam can't withstand

 Roknar wrote:
Can we keep the discussion more or less on topic please?
There was a thread on narrative vs matched and that got locked. We don't need another here.
Besides, it has little to nothing to do with the article I linked.

It would be easier to keep it on topic if people actually knew what the current rules for the current forgeworld version is.

Hint: It isn't barrage and of course the loyalist version will have the bombard, they currently do.

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Sounds like you need more guns, Aegis Defense Lines, and positioning to me. Hand to hand combat is going to be absolutely brutal but there are plenty of ways to mitigate it.

EDIT: That was a weird... must have misclicked.

 Galas wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Nothing that Kroot spam can't withstand

I sure hope so, but I doubt it. When asked about Kroot if they were turned into good melee units all they said is "they have a role to play". Doesn't lend confidence to us getting great melee auxiliary any time soon. If the dread takes the grav option it will massacre kroot even harder because of the extra hits per 5 models rule. If we take minimum squad size it will be routed in one round of melee by its high attacks and even an average leadership roll.

Unless Kroot are dramatically stronger I don't see them being viable for stopping any of the melee things we've seen. Heck not even a speed bump.

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Well that isn't all that h2h thing. If you take that for cc agaimpt tau you are doing something wrong.

And apart from suits(that ard tough to catch) units won't die in cc. Not that many attacks

tneva82 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Well that isn't all that h2h thing. If you take that for cc agaimpt tau you are doing something wrong.

And apart from suits(that ard tough to catch) units won't die in cc. Not that many attacks

I don't understand what your typing sorry.

Edit
The Tau gun's we've seen have been pretty tame to be honest and doesn't inspire hope our firepower has dramatically increased. If anything it's looking to have decreased significantly.

 Gamgee wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Well that isn't all that h2h thing. If you take that for cc agaimpt tau you are doing something wrong.

And apart from suits(that ard tough to catch) units won't die in cc. Not that many attacks

I don't understand what your typing sorry.

Edit
The Tau gun's we've seen have been pretty tame to be honest and doesn't inspire hope our firepower has dramatically increased. If anything it's looking to have decreased significantly.

With 5 attacks in mele it can only kill max 5 units in meele. So ignoring battleshock it will need minimun 4 turns to kill a 20 Kroot unit.
Personally I have no problems with this fella:
1-Nobody here has any of those.
2-I'm pretty sure it will be costed apropiately.
3-I have no problems with weapons of mass destruction causing mass damage to my army if I have my own tools to fight them. And I'm pretty sure Tau will have them.

And who has 5 attacks? Most will take big gun. Either mortal wound spammer or grav thing. Not that scary in cc especially for tau. Best target is big suit squads or riptides but if tau allows that they have bigger problem at hands.

 Galas wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Well that isn't all that h2h thing. If you take that for cc agaimpt tau you are doing something wrong.

And apart from suits(that ard tough to catch) units won't die in cc. Not that many attacks

I don't understand what your typing sorry.

Edit
The Tau gun's we've seen have been pretty tame to be honest and doesn't inspire hope our firepower has dramatically increased. If anything it's looking to have decreased significantly.

With 5 attacks in mele it can only kill max 5 units in meele. So ignoring battleshock it will need minimun 4 turns to kill a 20 Kroot unit.

Grav Flux bombarder will be softening up the kroot on approach though and in a 20 man unit that would be 4d6 hits with BS 3+ since its firing on the move. Even if Kroot are in high cover there is no way they can stop that thing from reducing their armor to nothing so they are back to no save.

Don't forget it can also be shooting all its other guns on approach too. This thing is putting out more ranged firepower than 3 man crisis team, is more survivable, and nearly as fast. It is also far far better in melee and just to complete the trifecta of BS will probably be way under costed because of course it has to be.

It will be actually 5d3 (1d3 for the weapon and 4d3 for 20 models)

But as I said, I have no problems with big guns destroying small troops. The only problem that I can have is that the GravFlux Bombarder seems a little too reliable against everything. It can destroy giant monsters because is Grav, and it can destroy hordes because his a Bombarder. That will be a no problem if GW cost it balanced enough. (So basically making them the most expensive option for a good margin)

 Gamgee wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
People still actually thought Tau would survive melee to run away or that supporting fire is more than token defense against such power.

Nothing that Kroot spam can't withstand

I sure hope so, but I doubt it. When asked about Kroot if they were turned into good melee units all they said is "they have a role to play". Doesn't lend confidence to us getting great melee auxiliary any time soon. If the dread takes the grav option it will massacre kroot even harder because of the extra hits per 5 models rule. If we take minimum squad size it will be routed in one round of melee by its high attacks and even an average leadership roll.

Unless Kroot are dramatically stronger I don't see them being viable for stopping any of the melee things we've seen. Heck not even a speed bump.

wtf am i even reading...

Kroot don't have to be strong, they don't have to be great melee, they have to stand in front of the gak you actually care about and slow things down with their BIG, MEATY, CCLLAAWWSSS. As long as they are cheap and can reach units of 20+, you've got a unit that can screen for you and easily slow down melee units enough for you to shoot to death. You are Tau, I have no idea why you want a strong melee unit so badly when you do not need one and any that you got wouldn't be as strong as other army's melee units anyways. Yes, the Kroot will be a speed bump (or some other unit will be your speed bump) because it will slow down the melee units. Expecting them to do anything more than that is absurd. I don't expect my Cultists to do more than slow down or distract my opponent because that is what they are meant to do. They once took out a whole squad of Terminators in shooting and it was glorious, but it was a 1 in a million chance.

Kroot's "role to play" is the same as Cultists: gum up the enemy's armor with their gore.

I should have specified I want them to be "strong" as in a great speed bump. I still don't think they will though. The more of them you add in the more shots the damn gun gets against hordes. Read man READ! Forcing larger and larger leadership tests the bigger the unit size gets you get the more you lose.

In a cage match.....I'd bet on the swarmlord. I always go for the underdog (16 p vs 15 p)

"Two Men(?) enter, one man leaves!" Mad max thunderdome