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ced1106 wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.

I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.

Considering they just announced that there will be a Kickstarter only huge dragon for the Black Death: Green Horde game, I don't think that's going to happen.

I guess I'll remove those Blood Rage and The Others items from my wish list...

The wargaming/big box boardgame market has been well catered to in the last couple of years. For me, that means I'm looking for thinner and thinner reasons to exclude new items from my bloated list of potential purchases. After Rising Sun comes in, it will be even easier for me to get on with not buying CMON products.

Also, did Star Trek Attack Wing initiate a similar policy? Do they really think there are people willing to pay more than $8 on a Vidian ship that looks like a rotten pretzel? I guess they'd rather have warehouses full of unsexy blisters rather than some common sense.

If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?

Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...

 Alpharius wrote:
If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?

Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...

The funny thing is, it would. The funnier thing is that I was planning to buy some of the smaller Blood Rage expansions off Amazon for about 10-15% off, not much of a discount at all, because I was so impressed by the CMON minis I was able to acquire at prices so low I can't advertise them. Without that first hit to sweeten all subsequent deals, I'm not as excited about the product and can no longer use the flimsy justification that my Blood Rage purchases taken in total are still at a decent, I-don't-feel-like-a-sucker savings. Include the psychological impact of the company offending my principles essentially insulting me for my preferred purchase habits, and I perceive CMON's minis' value much differently.

Plus grudges save me money.

Since the chance of finding any CMON stuff at discount here in the UK is minimal its probably not going to effect me much whatever the number is

It's more the fact that they're planning to get nasty with retailers (and not just online ones although they're no doubt the main target) who want to either do high volume low margin or just dump stuff that failed at their store

and actually the longer they take to put up the price list (I was expecting it within 24 hours of the anouncment since it was 'live' when published) the more I suspect it's going to be either RRP or minimal (10% or less) discount only

 Moopy wrote:

ced1106 wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:
To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.

I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.

Considering they just announced that there will be a Kickstarter only huge dragon for the Black Death: Green Horde game, I don't think that's going to happen.

True they did give you one for the kickstarter that launched few days later, doesnt mean they will keep doing so.

Also Im sure some of you noticed that there was no early backer discount set available for green horde.

Quite, their stuff is also hard to get by around here, not to mention it being hella expensive in most cases.

ced1106 wrote:

Ernster wrote:
@Alpharius, and therin lies the problem.

KS makes wads of cash. There is no problem.

It increases exposure - serving as advertising, and helps finance products that would otherwise rely on bank loans.

Really, if the company is competent, Kickstarters are a win/win.

It is only when Kickstarters are poorly understood - and provide to many 'goodies' for the money that they are a 'problem' (Chaosium tried to Kickstart themselves to death, for example.)

Companies like Mantic, Reaper, and CMoN relying on Kickstarter is common sense, and each has a firm grasp on just how large or small a margin they will end up with when the KS is completed. Heck, Reaper has a YouTube video on the subject - and why the distance between each stretch goal was getting longer as the Bones I KS continued - essentially.

CMon has had some hugely successful KS, and really have no reason to discontinue the practice.

The Auld Grump

@The AuldGrump, and as of yet Reaper has not set MAPP pricing. My point is, don't try and tell me you are saving the value of your product by creating MAPP pricing as you make hand over fist in cash.

The latest KS has also increased to $120. $10 increments seem to be the KS pledge levels now.

@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CMoN can do what they want. Im just saying there will no longer be impulse purchases from me.

Alpharius wrote:If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?

Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...

Ernster wrote:
@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.

I...know?

I just wish they'd spill the beans already.

Then we can really complain!

Or not...

 AduroT wrote:
Except PP doesn't stop you from selling online?

they put you on a blacklist they give to distributors and tell the distributors not to sell to the stores on the blacklist.

They also did this right before they announced Mk 3. SO maybe they were anticipating stores unloading starters and books before the new edition came out. But they also encouraged retailers to go in for Mk3 3 release bundles, that in some stores fell flat as the new edition did as well. My local store owner is really salty about all the product he got stuck with, that he can't even sell online at a discount for fear of being put on the blacklist. It also made him less likly to order PP product in, which makes it harder to support the store, though I've since stopped playing W/H do to loosing interest.

@Alpharius, not only are they MAPP pricing but increasing price as well. the Guest box SRP is $30 when the BP guest box was $25.

Well, that's not a great sign, but it has probably been a while since CMON had a 'price rise' and they actually just dropped a bunch of pricing by switching to 'unit boxes' for their Dark Age line.

Ernster wrote:
@The AuldGrump, and as of yet Reaper has not set MAPP pricing. My point is, don't try and tell me you are saving the value of your product by creating MAPP pricing as you make hand over fist in cash.

The latest KS has also increased to $120. $10 increments seem to be the KS pledge levels now.

@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CMoN can do what they want. Im just saying there will no longer be impulse purchases from me.

If Reaper implemented a MAPP then I would stop buying anything by them as well.

I refuse to support companies that use that method - even when I like their products, and even on Kickstarter.

The way to tell companies that you do not like what they are doing is to not buy their products - so I do not buy Asmodee.

I do not buy Privateer.

Getting the picture? I am not saying that CMoN will be making less money - I am saying that they will not be getting my money - which is a very different thing.

The Auld Grump

@AuldGrump, I get the picture, hence, like you I do not purchase from those companies as well.

I don't see why you are arguing or debating me if we both have the same resolution?

In regards to CMoN making less money? Who knows, I'm curious to see their financial report as well as the listed companies we have discussed next year.

Ernster wrote:
@AuldGrump, I get the picture, hence, like you I do not purchase from those companies as well.

I don't see why you are arguing or debating me if we both have the same resolution?

In regards to CMoN making less money? Who knows, I'm curious to see their financial report as well as the listed companies we have discussed next year.

Because I disagreed on the topic of Kickstarters - not the topic of MAPP.

On MAPP we are agreed, sounds like.

But Kickstarter... is just too good a solution to things that have been a problem since the mid nineties in the gaming industry.

The Auld Grump

That was my point on KS as well. It is a great solution to help a start up gaming industry. It is now a pre-order for some companies. It is sad as large companies like CMoN take away from the smaller companies that are KSing at the same time. CMoN is a great company with fantastic products.

I just see it as a money grab with MAPP as an excuse. I know, I know, they are a company and it is their right. Its just that affordable games with great miniatures are starting to become...less affordable.

Ernster wrote:
It is sad as large companies like CMoN take away from the smaller companies that are KSing at the same time.

Do you have any numbers to back you up???

Because here's what James Mathe says about KS vs. IGG. You assume that KS is a zero-sum gain, but that would then mean that small companies should use IGG vs. KS. Except that James Mathe said he made as much money on *one* day on KS than he did for an entire campaign on IGG. Also, if CMON's taking all the money away from small companies, why are small companies still using them? IGG isn't *exactly* the same as KS, but it's close enough, and even the Russian miniatures KS said she used IGG only because KS does not yet allow projects from Russia. That certainly suggests that she wanted her small company to use KS. Why would she want to do that if CMON was taking away all the money?

http://www.jamesmathe.com/indie-no-go/

What does the crowdfunding platform have to do with anything?

@Ced, I did not say that KS was a zero sum gain. My point was that It has become a pre order system for CMoN. Yes some small companies have held off a KS when CMoN has a KS during the same time period.

My point about the crowd funding is. CMoN does not need it and can fund their own product with their own revenue. I get they want to MAPP, cool. Impulse buys will now no longer be done by me.

@BobtheInquisitor, Crowdfunding is great.

I mean, what does the fact that people don't use Indiegogo have to do with how much Kickstarter is a zero sum game? Those are completely unrelated. If I pledge too much on a CMON game to pledge for any other game (on KS or not), it's not like Indiegogo will spot me some extra cash.

Might be that they haven't edited their site yet, but Miniature Market still has CMON products at the same discount as before (I checked the Wrath of Kings line, all currently still 20% off suggested retail price). Will keep an eye on it over the next few days and see if any change.

@ BigDaddio, June 5th is the deadline.

Every time there's a new post in here, I think that CMON has finally posted their MAPP guidelines...

What the heck is taking them so long?!?

 Alpharius wrote:
Every time there's a new post in here, I think that CMON has finally posted their MAPP guidelines...

What the heck is taking them so long?!?

they are busy watching the Green Horde Kickstarter. It's been mentioned in the comments a few times there now too.

Ernster wrote:
@ BigDaddio, June 5th is the deadline.

Ah, whoops. I was thinking today was the deadline.

@BigDaddio, It might as well be. Almost all ZBP stuff from online distributors is sold out.

We have MAPPs

https://cmon.com/assets/CMON_MAPP_Price_List.pdf

a quick scan and it looks like most (all?) are 15% off recommended retail



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So not as bad as i'd originally feared, but not as good as I'd hoped on the MAPP

More or less the savings will cover shipping.

 Piston Honda wrote:
More or less the savings will cover shipping.

Which is still quite a bit when you consider how easy it generally is to get free shipping and how much you save in not paying sales tax.