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I suppose we'll see how Morty's chest looks in a couple of weeks

 Deadshot wrote:
He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.

Don't bring annie into this mess.

You're underestimating the importance of Anakin Skywalker
As a matter of fact, the prophecy said "Bring balance to the force", in a universe where there were maybe two Siths and the Jedi were flourishing like crazy.
So he did bring balance, by mulching all the Jedi, seeding the next generation (which is exclusively his geneseed), seeing to its survival by throwing the emperor in a pit, etc. (tell me why that idiot cannot use the force to levitate again? )
Although he's probably part of an endless cycle of yin-yang alternated dominance, he is the linchpin of the white-to-black transition and the second most important element in the black-to-white transition, the first being his own son.

Not only is the character a lot more interesting and detailed than anything I know from GW, he is at the center of his era where Draigo is just one among many omgwtfbbqpwnsauce OTT special snowflakes.

So I was curious enough to listen to Mortarions Heart.

I was faintly optimistic that the whole overblown Mary sue thing would be allegorical and the a risk act would make more sense as a metaphor than.. nope actually rips Morty open and carves a name on his heart. Well Well well.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So I was curious enough to listen to Mortarions Heart.

I was faintly optimistic that the whole overblown Mary sue thing would be allegorical and the a risk act would make more sense as a metaphor than.. nope actually rips Morty open and carves a name on his heart. Well Well well.

Doesn't that basically say that Draigo wasn't particularly special for doing it because simply have Mortarion's True Name defeated him?

morgoth wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
He is the 40k equivilent of Anakin Skywalker. Mountains of potential to usher in a golden age, ultimately never did it and ends up another footnote in history.

Don't bring annie into this mess.

You're underestimating the importance of Anakin Skywalker
As a matter of fact, the prophecy said "Bring balance to the force", in a universe where there were maybe two Siths and the Jedi were flourishing like crazy.
So he did bring balance, by mulching all the Jedi, seeding the next generation (which is exclusively his geneseed), seeing to its survival by throwing the emperor in a pit, etc. (tell me why that idiot cannot use the force to levitate again? )
Although he's probably part of an endless cycle of yin-yang alternated dominance, he is the linchpin of the white-to-black transition and the second most important element in the black-to-white transition, the first being his own son.

Not only is the character a lot more interesting and detailed than anything I know from GW, he is at the center of his era where Draigo is just one among many omgwtfbbqpwnsauce OTT special snowflakes.

I am very aware of how important Anakin is to the rise and fall of the Empire. But there were Sith longer before Vader and Sideous, and Jedi long before them too. And long after. Anakin is seen as important because the films focus on his. In the wider universe, he's not important at all. He has moutains of potential to be the greatest Jedi ever born. He fails to achieve that. Ands ends as a footnote in history, to be replaced with Darth Vader, who ushered in an age of war and fear and oppression. Simply due to destiny.

Much like Draigo. Important for a few brief moments in the wider universe, then not. Mountains of potential to be the greatest Grey Knight ever. Then failed, due to destiny.

Except he's still lauded as the greatest Grey Knight ever so he didn't fail.

I've never much cared for the question of a fictional character being a Mary Sue, that's more a reflection on the writer's ability and until the character is actually gone from the universe and no more is to be written it's also open to change - Is Draigo a Mary Sue? Depends on the writer of the story.

All it takes is one good writer who has the talent to explore him within the character rules already established and he could become interesting, knowing his ability to serve his Chapter is limited to the point of depression but trying to get there anyway is actually kind of admirable.

The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

123ply wrote:
The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

when Morty's stats come out I'd be easy to see some number crunching done to see how plauseable, on the table top, dragio beating Morty is.

123ply wrote:
The reasoning that draigo won't die because his "destiny" is that he gets killed by Mkar other whatever, is just the stupidest reasoning I have ever seen. I don't want to explain why. It's so dumb that I'm hoping someone can just think about it for a few seconds and realize how much more Mary sue that makes him, as apperantly nobody else has a destiny but to die to whatever tries killing them. This guy' was invisible to a greater daemon because of "destiny" for damn sake, how much plot armour can one guy have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW would best just not talk about Mortarion's defeat again, so people think it gets retconned. (Because people assume if something does not show up in a codex it doesn't exist anymore)

"Don't want to explain why" is almost the same as not actually having a reason.

Kaldor Draigo is why I never made a Death Guard army. My hope is the next time Mortarion and Draigo meet, Mortarion hits him so hard the Grey Knights disband.

 Warplock wrote:
Kaldor Draigo is why I never made a Death Guard army. My hope is the next time Mortarion and Draigo meet, Mortarion hits him so hard the Grey Knights disband.

It'd honestly be intreasting to see a "Dragio Morty rematch"

The question Mortation's Heart raises, for me - and I haven't listened to it, so if there is an answer I would love to hear it - why didn't the previous Grandmaster, the one Mortation rips up,not use his True Name? Or was it a name so powerful only a Mary Sue could utter it or something? Was there any reason why the veteran, experienced leader of a chapter specifically made to fight Daemons didn't use the ultimate anti-daemon weapon against such a powerful enemy? It seems...odd...that he didn't just do it himself.

Let's see. The Grand Master had doubt..
Teleported in, Paladins tear apart the Death Shroud.

Geronitan has Morty transfixed.. morty starts laughing.
Geronitan has a rant, says his piece.. morty points at him flaps his wings (leathery) says he is decieved. Morty rocks out a Plague Wind, Geronitan fails to dispel.. Paladins all fall over.. Gerry drops the sword.. KO'd.

So yeah looks like he just couldn't hang in long enough to do the deed.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Let's see. The Grand Master had doubt..
Teleported in, Paladins tear apart the Death Shroud.

Geronitan has Morty transfixed.. morty starts laughing.
Geronitan has a rant, says his piece.. morty points at him flaps his wings (leathery) says he is decieved. Morty rocks out a Plague Wind, Geronitan fails to dispel.. Paladins all fall over.. Gerry drops the sword.. KO'd.

So yeah looks like he just couldn't hang in long enough to do the deed.

For some reason this rendition of the story makes me think of Alphabeat:

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty points and laughs)

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty starts to cast a spell...)

Geronitan: The word is on my lips...

Paladins: Say the word!
(Morty kills them all)

Draigo: MOR-TAR-I-ON!
(heartscrawls Morty and saves the day)

It's worth noting that it was like he could just say the word and that's it. Wasn't it described as Draigo not even really knowing the True Name and retained no memory of it after he unleashed it? Seemed more akin to a Psychic weapon that had to be prepared than what you might expect. Some described it as a mental suitcase bomb which seems surprisingly apt.

I still think the easiest way of making that fight seem better would have just been to say that Mortarion had been weakened by Geronitan. Or just have Warp-totems X be destroyed elsewhere, weakening the presence of the Warp. The True Name pretty much one-shotting Mortarion is weird and not really how True Names have been portrayed in the past from what I recall.

Previously in the original Realms of Chaos books and in the first Grey Knights novels, True Names were described as granting leverage against a daemon. It is not a guarantee of an instant-kill. The powerful Daemon Prince in the Grey Knights novel was temporarily incapacitated by the True Name as it had only just manifested and was therefore not at full power. This was however enough for other more mundane Imperial forces to kill the incapacitated Daemon Prince before it could recover.

It was also said in the original Realms of Chaos that only the most powerful of Daemons did not fear others knowing their True Name. This hints there are such daemons out there (or at least there were at that point in GW's RL history).

It could be hypothesized that maybe the Chaos gods' names are their True Names. They are so powerful that the little extra leverage invoking their True Name gives is irrelevant.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've never much cared for the question of a fictional character being a Mary Sue, that's more a reflection on the writer's ability and until the character is actually gone from the universe and no more is to be written it's also open to change - Is Draigo a Mary Sue? Depends on the writer of the story.

All it takes is one good writer who has the talent to explore him within the character rules already established and he could become interesting, knowing his ability to serve his Chapter is limited to the point of depression but trying to get there anyway is actually kind of admirable.

This. I don't really understand how people have gone back and forth so much when it's clearly all dependant on what you're reading from. Obviously he's been awfully written at times, welcome to 40k fiction. On the other hand, there's plenty of cool concepts to work with, welcome to the 40k universe. Lots of Sue, lots of awesome, they're not mutually exclusive.

I think it's more a balance ratio. Draigo is more heavily leaning towards Sue than most because of the scale of his deeds,, although he's been moderately dragged back from his initial fluff. A lot of his awesome moments also come with Sue-taint, too. Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did. And then all the Grandmasters had a quick Psyker chat and decided to jump him to Supreme Grandmaster.

But his plotline is basically the unholy love child of Brother-Captain Stern and Samurai Jack. Only his Aku is already dead. And did not sound anywhere near as awesome as Mako Iwamatsu.

So now he's cursed to be only killable by a guy who's already dead, which can pretty much only happen now via time travel. When time travel is your endgame, you've lost the plot. Down a wormhole, usually.

It's not impossible that he could feature in some awesome stories, of course - GW do have a few talented writers - but with Matt Ward once again prowling Nottingham, drinking his favorite cocktail (a mix of Ultramarine Blue paint and the tears of his victims) it's sadly more likely that Draigo will arm wrestle Angron into submission, overwhelm Magnus' psyker defences, out party Fulrgrim and out debate Lorgar on religion - possibly all at once.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

the story, it's worth noting was written after the fact. so it's a case of a writer being handed the 5th edition grey knights summery and being told "make this hot mess work"

Oh, I get that - and what a challenge that would be! That story, along with a few other Wardified bits of fluff, put me off playing the Codex (and eventually I lost interest in the game, skipping 6th and 7th editions. I'm only tentatively interested in 8th because some friends are getting into Necromunda) and for someone who'd played the 3rd edition codex right up until it was retired...

The problem I'm having is the more I think about, the more Sue the story comes across, even though the intention was to de-Sue Draigo and make us stop making fun of him.

But yeah, either the True Name thing is too awesome for most Grey Knights to learn and use, hence cementing Draigo's Sueness, or the Grey Knights are too Grimdark to use their best weapon against their most lethal foes...for reasons.

I would love to de-Sue Draigo - his model is gorgeous, and the basic idea is interesting - but at this point I'm not sure how you could do it.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Oh, I get that - and what a challenge that would be! That story, along with a few other Wardified bits of fluff, put me off playing the Codex (and eventually I lost interest in the game, skipping 6th and 7th editions. I'm only tentatively interested in 8th because some friends are getting into Necromunda) and for someone who'd played the 3rd edition codex right up until it was retired...

The problem I'm having is the more I think about, the more Sue the story comes across, even though the intention was to de-Sue Draigo and make us stop making fun of him.

But yeah, either the True Name thing is too awesome for most Grey Knights to learn and use, hence cementing Draigo's Sueness, or the Grey Knights are too Grimdark to use their best weapon against their most lethal foes...for reasons.

I would love to de-Sue Draigo - his model is gorgeous, and the basic idea is interesting - but at this point I'm not sure how you could do it.

I'd read the story myself first, (I haven't yet) just because I suspect it'll be handled. Dragio simply being talented eneugh to learn a deamon primarchs true name, when others happened not too, isn't nesscarily sueish. SOMEONE has to be the best

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

That's assuming they have the other True Names. From what I can find, the True Name was "the one the Emperor originally intended to call him." Maybe Mortarion's is all they have? Angron, for example, he is Khorne's greatest champion, presumably Khorne would intervene and protect vs such a tricksy tactic. Or perhaps Angron is so far gone from his original version that his True Name no long applies to him? True Names are very much mutable and complex. Lexicanum, citing The Chapter's Due reads "For Daemons who were once mortals, such as Chaos Space Marines who have ascended to Daemon Prince status, their mortal names sometimes function as their True Names. During the Invasion of Ultramar, Uriel Ventris weakened the Daemon Prince M'kar by identifying him aloud as Maloq Kartho, formerly a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers."

However for Primarchs, they were never truly mortal or immortal, and their mortal name functions as their Daemon Name. Again, going back to the mutability, Angron is so vastly changed from the Emperor's original design by the Butcher's Nails that perhaps the True Name the Emperor intended never really applied. For Fulgrim, who willinging gave up all his ties to humanity, perhaps that also symbolically shed his True Name in favour of another? Magnus, as a true avatar of Tzeentch, is ever changing, so his True Name would be extremely difficult to pin down and actually work. But the time you discover it, its already changed. Mortarion, as champion of the God of decay, rot and stagnation, it makes sense that his True Name just never changed. However, after such an attack, it probably changed his character and made him realise he has a vulnerability, and thus, his True Name would change with him.

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

Why don't all Grey Knights have this? Perhaps it wasn't really Draigo's doing, rather another powerful being (such as The Emperor or Fateweaver) spoke through him?

Perhaps speaking a True Name is a doorway; once opened it can be traversed in either direction, so against the most powerful daemon using a True Name could be dangerous for the weaker willed?

Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

I dunno, I think there is some room for interesting exploration here.

nareik wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Like - yeah, he beat Mortation, but only because his Sue powers kicked in and he magically unleashed the one attack that could defeat him, but apparently had neither knowledge nor training to do so (from what I understand of other posters accounts - I still haven't listened to the story) he just did.

He had been trained for it and had been given the True Name. It's just that instead of him saying the words it was more of a Psychic bomb. One that he wouldn't be able to use again unless he was prepped for it again. It's not necessarily a Mary Sue Moment.

That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

Why don't all Grey Knights have this? Perhaps it wasn't really Draigo's doing, rather another powerful being (such as The Emperor or Fateweaver) spoke through him?

Perhaps speaking a True Name is a doorway; once opened it can be traversed in either direction, so against the most powerful daemon using a True Name could be dangerous for the weaker willed?

Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

I dunno, I think there is some room for interesting exploration here.

I think there is something to do with the strength of will. In the GK codex it describes the invoking of True Names as a form of Daemonic Pact, however, one that puts the speaker at a major advantage, as opposed to a ritual summoning. True Names also appear (as per Lexicanum) to interrupt the connection to the patron God, as the TN is the binding that holds the Daemon hostage to the God. I'm sure any old Noob trying to seperate a Daemon from its God would be incinerated or something by the sheer force. The most powerful Daemons, ie, the Primarchs and Daemon Lords, are probably pretty much immune except in exceptional circumstances such as this.

As for learning it in the field, perhaps it was some sort of psychic prompt that he discovered. For example, perhaps in the heat of the moment, his pyschic brain tapped into the Warp, and drew out that knowledge of the Daemon's essence subconciously. That would explain why he didn't know it before or after. Or perhaps, as you say, the Emperor spoke through Draigo as a conduit? Or maybe something in the middle. There are a lot of interesting aspects to this element of the story that can be explored.

So essentially he's not a Mary Sue, he just has more will power than every other Grey Knight / extant human being ever (including the previous grandmaster).

That's not mary sue at all.

No siree.

 Jon Garrett wrote:


That...doesn't really help, when you think about it. Why was Draigo, and Draigo alone apparently, the only one given this? If other Grey Knights have this, why aren't they regularly deployed against the Daemon Primarchs? We know Angron took down over a hundred Grey Knights, and if they have access to Mortation's True Name of Instant Detonation then surely they have the same for all of them? I mean, Daemon Primarchs are pretty much the worst Chaos has to offer short of the truly huge Daemons and the Gods themselves. You'd assume that if this was an option, then it would be one they'd use first. And we know Grey Knights battled against the Thousand Sons led by Magnus in the Stygian Crusade, which the Imperials lost.

Hell, if it was an option I'd have everyone who can so much as utter it and knows about Chaos and the fall of the Legions know it.

For that matter, why aren't they using it on Mortation more often? We know in the current lore he's out, about and occasionally murdering whole worlds. The Plague Wars are not exactly subtle. And the Grey Knights 7th Brotherhood were present for it, according to Lexicanum.

I mean, I really should go find the story to listen to at this point. It's starting to sound like the whole thing was a one shot super power that only Draigo has ever been seen using even though apparently other Grey Knights should be able to use it too. Either it's too hard for Grey Knights to master it and Draigo is just that super awesome that he can, or it's being severely under utilized.

I'd assume that to use it would require a certain degree of willpower. Plus he almost died trying to use it as he had to touch him to do so. I haven't heard of the Stygian Crusade. But maybe they couldn't get close enough to use it.

In the book it's not something you can just learn. As someone put it it was essentially a mental suitcase bomb. Draigo didn't really know it. Who knows if most people could even use it? Besides that, knowing too much about Chaos is inherently corrupting. Even if they know about the Traitor Marines they're unlikely to know details.

Dunno, maybe he learned his lesson and was more cautious. Again they have to get close and get an opening. It's not actually speaking a name. Plus there was a big thing about it at it being when worlds and stars aligned.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan. It was unnecessary to retcon what True Names do. The original fluff was ropey but you could justify it easily by having Mortarion having been weakened by the previous Supreme Grand Master, destroying various rituals/constructions used to keep the presence of the Warp strong, using the True Name in the original way, some special preparation against plagues? I can imagine Mortarion being a lot easier to defeat than Angron or Magnus if you have the ability to withstand his contagions.

Unit1126PLL wrote:So essentially he's not a Mary Sue, he just has more will power than every other Grey Knight / extant human being ever (including the previous grandmaster).

It's 40K and he's the Supreme Grand Master so he could well have more will power than any other Grey Knight. That's wouldn't make him a mary sue. But anyway, the previous Supreme Grand Master wasn't necessarily weaker, he was caught off guard. Don't know where you're getting the 'ever' part from.

I'll try to go through it again in a couple of days.

nareik wrote:Perhaps Draigo learnt the True Name out in the field, and didn't realise the knowledge he had until he exercised it?

No, it was given to him by the Grey Knights, but it's not the sort of thing you can hand out to people easily. Draigo doesn't even know what it was. To use it again he'd have to get prepped again.

Basically, Mortarions Heart massively changed what a True Name was (ifor that situation at least) so I think this is leading to a lot of confusion.