Maggot Rotbringers - next AOS faction

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**Kanluwen**

Wayniac wrote:
Jeeze that sounds pretty good. Talk about a buff on Blightkings. Gain one wound, went down 20 points.

Don't pop the champagne yet, remember that the new flying guys are called "Blightlords" and everyone keeps referring to them as Blightkings.

**Wayniac**

More leaks:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/9323-lets-chat-maggotkin-of-nurgle/?do=findComment&comment=159332

ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
Use the wheel from blightwar
Get a tree to setup for free in the deployment phase before sides and deployments are chosen.
tree rules (nurgle units within 7" can run and charge) It also has anohter rule i think but they did not mention it.
There is a contagion points system to summon without having to cast but do use reinforcement points for the units. However tree's are free and cost 7 contgion points to place.

COMMAND TRAITS
Rotbringer - add 2 to run and charge rolls for general.
Another trait they can have is an addtional save ignore damage on a 6+
Mortal - Overpowering Stench - The enemy must re-roll hit rolls against your general of a 6+.
Demons - Pestilent Breath - Pick a unit within 6" roll a dice for each model in target unit within 6". each model takes a mortal wound on a 5+.

The first three command traits are general and repeat over the three tables of 6 command traits for each catergory. The second three are spepcial to each table
1)start of hero phase move forward or backwards one step
2)roll a dice for in hero phase each 4+ mortal wound contagion point within 1 inch of general
3)hulking physice add 1 to wound rolls

ARTIFACTS
rotbringers - fecund flask once per battle hero drink roll dice on 2+ heal all wounds on 1 you dieturned into beast of nurgle.
Demons - re-roll hits of 6 while within 12" of the bearer.
Another one is -2 bravery to enemy units within 12"
Mortals - pick unit within 3" loss 1 from save rolls for the rest of the game. In hero phase

SPELLS
Wheel spell all nurgle wizards know this spell. This spell lets you manipulate the wheel allegiance trait to whaever number you want from 1 to 6.
(Rotbringers) Blades of Putrification - cast on 7 pick unit within 14" hit rolls of 6 cause a mortal wound in addtiion to normal damage.
(Daemons) Glorious Afflictions - 21" cast 5. pick a visible enemy unit its move, run and charge distance is halved. Till your nexthero phase.
(Mortal) Magnificant bub? - pick enemy hero in 21" takes d3 mortal wounds and must take -1 from cast and dispell rolls till your next hero phase.

Clawing quagmire 5 to cast 14" pick an enemy unit roll a dice. If you roll equal to or higher the enemies save they take D6 mortal wounds.

UNITS
Great Unclean One and Rotigus cost 340 points.
GUO command ability pick unit within 20" plus 1 attack each until nexthero phase.
Can cast two spells aswell now.
Rotigus's spell is also roll 7 dice and pick upto 7 different visible units. infinite range. On the roll of a 4+ each unit takes D3 mortal wounds. This roll to see if it works gets worse as Rotigus gets hurt.
All great Unclean Ones still heal D3 wounds in your hero phase aswell.

Hortilux Slimux Once during battle at start of hero phase within he can place a blight tree within 3" of himself.
Horticulus lets you place a tree for free if you take him.

Plague Drones
These guys are unchanged apart from their locus
Locus if within 7" of a nurgle hero plus one attack to all their melee weapons.

Lord of Afflictions (Hero on rotfly)
7 or 8 wounds
Every unit within 3" takes mortal wound on 4+ in the hero phase.
Virulent Discharge - roll a ice for every unit within 3" in the hero phase on a 6+ they take D3 mortal wounds nurgle units heal D3
Command Ability Spear Head of Contagion - Pick a friendly Pusgoyle Blightlords unit within 7 Inches that unit gains 8" of movement till your next hero phase.

Lord of Blights
Ranged 1 attack 14"(maybe) 3+ 3+ -3 d3 damage
Gives death heads to one other unit. 14" 4+ 3+ 1 dam no rend
Command abilit pick a nurgle unit within 21" Until your next hero phase enemy get -1 to hit in shooting phase against unit. If the target unit has 20 or more models enemeis get -2 to shoot and -1 in combat

Pusgoyl. 220 points
Just a rot fly with a king on it.
They get disgustingly resilient.
7 wounds each bravery 8 move 8 inches 4+ armour save.
3 attacks each for the rider. Just like a blight king.
One in two can have a bell. Hits on a 4+ wound on a 3+ rend 2- 2dam. One attack.
Demon keyword.

Blightkings 160 points now
One extra wound each so eachone has 4 now. This means the champion has 5.

Normal Heralds are wizards (Poxbringer)
6 to cast 7" d3 mortal wounds

FORMATIONS
Thricefold befoulment formation 160 points
3 GUO's (Rotigsu counts)
re-roll hit rolls of 1 if within 7" of 1 model from the battalion. Might be like 7".
re-roll wound rolls of 1 aswell if within 7" of 2 models from the battalion.
Plague storm if model from this battalion casts plague wind while wihtin 7" it does 2 D3 damage and healing instead if within range of 2 models from the formation it does 3D3 damage or healing instead.
PLAGUE WIND - Casts on 7. Draw a line from closest point on model to an enemy model 14" range. Any unit under the line takes D3 mortal wounds or if nurgle heals D3 mortal wounds.

No name given
Blight kings lord of plagues and three blight kings.
Lord of plagues can normally makes blightkings re-roll 1's when near him they now re-roll all misses instead.
Roll a dice in the hero phase on a 6 enemy units wihtin 1" of units from the formation take D3 mortal wounds.

Their is also another formation which was described as having 3 units of pusgoyle blightlords in and a Lord of afflictions but no detials given.

Menagery of Nurgle
Has Slimux in it and they didn't say what else. However it lets Slimux place a tree every turn instead of once per game.

BATTLELINE
Plague Bearers
Blight Kings if nurgle allegiance only
Pusgoyle Blightlords If lord of afflictions is the army general (This is the hero model on a rotfly.)
Doesn't look like we got nurglings as battleline.

The locus has now changed for all units that hvae them aswell.
Loci used to trigger omly if a nearby NURGLE PLAGUEBEARER HERO was nearby only. They have now changed this to read ANY NURGLE HERO.

**auticus**

Looks pretty good.

**Fafnir**

That all looks good. Really good. Almost too good. I worry that might all end up being a bit much.

**auticus**

I mean they are cranking the knob to 11 with a bunch of other armies. If everything is cranked to 11 nothing is right?

I haven't had an army cranked to GW-11 in years. It'll be nice not to have my face rubbed in poop and told to git gud for a while

**NinthMusketeer**

If that information about blightkings is true I will be utterly disgusted with GWs point costs. That would make them as bad as skyfires were in GHB1 and reduce Nurgle army building to 'just spam blightkings'.

**auticus**

I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Plugging the rumored values and updated warscroll into azyr comp to gauge its power and yep they came out at very high on the bell curve for their point cost. It will be spam city for blightkings. Amateur hour at GW? Or intentional to move kits? I guess we'll never know.

**Fafnir**

Any word on Beasts yet? Also, I'm assuming nothing's been said or done to the Harbringer or Spume. That said, while the Harbringer will still be a solid core for Rotbringers, it's looking like he won't be an automatic pick for general anymore, which is nice.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
If that information about blightkings is true I will be utterly disgusted with GWs point costs. That would make them as bad as skyfires were in GHB1 and reduce Nurgle army building to 'just spam blightkings'.

I have to disagree with you. I know you have maintained BK's were under costed, but I just dont see it. On par with GHB16 skyfires?? thats hyperbole IMO. skyfires were good at EVERYTHING. fast, tough to kill, amazing shooting, good combat and cheap. blightkings even now just are not on that level. For 5 at 180.. compared to blood warriors..they had one extra wound with their two special abilities being about evenly powered but BK's cost almost double. This bring it more in line IMO.

I was hoping they would stay at 180, get disgustingly resilient added to the warscroll and find another use for harbinger of decay. OR change the morbid vigor (5++ save within 7") to an ability and not a command ability.

**Wayniac**

They don't seem that great honestly. they are tanky, but have no rend. I will have several units but I doubt it will be "spam blightkings". Skyfires were amazing because they could move super far, and had very high powered shots and shooting is OP in AOS because nothing can stop it short of killing the unit.

**auticus**

They dont need rend when you can put out as many wounds as they can.

I've heard that a lot. That my BK are crap because they can't rend. And then they go off and do 15 - 20 wounds because of the exploding D6s. On top of that if you keep them within range of the GUO 6s to wound are mortal wounds.

I think if they stayed at 180 pts that they'd still be a tad undercost but not grossly undercost. If they drop to 140 points the math at least says that they move into an "A" unit in terms of efficiency (offense/defense per point spent)

Whether or not one believes in math is a different story.

**Wayniac**

I don't know math at all (irony, being a programmer

). Also the leaks showed 160 points. I was torn between them or Deathrattle but since w eknow nothing about new death and I dislike hordes in general, leaning towards Maggotkin, also I've talked about doing Nurgle since like october of 2016

**Vomikron Noxis**

Aside from reduced cost Blightkings, any thoughts from anyone on what's looking good so far? I'm holding off until I see the battalions, but I'm hoping for good things from Daemons.

**auticus**

I bring up the math thing only because I have had a number of people tell me that you can't use math to balance a wargame and trying to is pointless.

A game. That uses statiistics lol.

I'll have to see where they are at 160 points. I'm bettiing still in "A" territory. 160 is not as grotesque as 140 but I still think its fairly underpointed. Enough to still raise an eyebrow.

Regardless, I have twenty of them and they make a solid second line behind the plague bearers in my list.

**Wayniac**

Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Aside from reduced cost Blightkings, any thoughts from anyone on what's looking good so far? I'm holding off until I see the battalions, but I'm hoping for good things from Daemons.

New GUO seems awesome (all three of them). Pusgoyle Blightlords seem good, not sure about their hero yet. Haven't seen the Beast yet, but I hope it got a buff because it's so expensive to buy.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Tempted to get a Beast just because I like the model!

**auticus**

I be using my plague toads for my beasts

**Vomikron Noxis**

Beasts will no doubt be good, because they have a new model. I'm excited to see the Menagerie of Nurgle Battalion... infinite trees from Horticulous is going to be cool. Depends on the other benefits too.

**Galas**

Point Costs need context of the faction. One unit can be mathematically OP, but if in the context of his faction is a meele only unit that totally lacks ways to transportation, and needs to run all the board being a slow unit, then it makes sense.

Thats why Sayl the Faithless was SO broken. Because mathematically OP units like Bloodletters that were balanced because they were fragile units that had 0 ways to move in the bard, gained the way to reach meele without any kind of problem.

Blightkings maybe are a powerhouse and undercosted once in meele. I'll admit that I don't play Nurgle. But has Nurgle ways to make them cross the board fast? Or they need to run and advance all the way towards meele?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

On their own, most Nurgle units are fairly plodding in terms of pace. Not exactly slow, but far from fast.

However, it seems they will be getting speed boost options - including being able to Advance and Charge if near the Tree Thing.

But I see what you're saying, and it makes absolute sense.

**auticus**

The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.

**Wayniac**

I'm excited about the blightkings though. I despise horde armies, so an elite-focused army is super appealing to me.

**Galas**

auticus wrote:
The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.

Yeah, this is actually good, and this is why they are obviously OP for that cost. But I just wanted to point that a unit can be very "strong" in a void, but being balanced in the context of his faction. (Thats why for example I'll never expect to have more mathematically efficient Khorne shooting units, than a Elf army, because my Khorne units should pay a premium for helping me overcome one of my weakness. In reality that translated in people ignoring those options and just spamming the most OP unit in the faction? Yeah. But thats is down to other problems of the ruleset).
Personally I believe is a problem making "Nurgle" armies so fast. They should be literally the slowest faction of the game

(On par with zombie hordes)

**CoreCommander**

auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive"

?

**Wayniac**

CoreCommander wrote:
auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?

Pretty sure they never unbanned him. TGA is... interesting. I like it a lot, but often it's basically a "UK Circlejerk" of people who just tow the GW party line no matter what, they are essentially like the US media, always biased in favor of their chosen candidate no matter what. In fact I just saw something there about why they seem overly positive about the slightly lackluster Malign Portens reveal was so GW doesn't get scared off from doing something like it again.

**auticus**

CoreCommander wrote:
auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?

no I have not returned to TGA no do I plan on it. This was in a facebook AOS group.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
CoreCommander wrote:
auticus wrote:
I had this conversation yesterday about point costing and was run out of the thread by the fans that were saying its just fine everything is fine how they point cost things is fine and outside people trying to fix points is bad, math is bad, and should die of cancer.

I love the community

Lol, did it happen on TGA? Have they banned you again for not being "positively productive" ?

Pretty sure they never unbanned him. TGA is... interesting. I like it a lot, but often it's basically a "UK Circlejerk" of people who just tow the GW party line no matter what, they are essentially like the US media, always biased in favor of their chosen candidate no matter what. In fact I just saw something there about why they seem overly positive about the slightly lackluster Malign Portens reveal was so GW doesn't get scared off from doing something like it again.

Most of the guys on there also unfollowed me on twitter. It is what it is. It disappoints me that debate leads to open contempt and hostility. I thought that was reserved to political and religious arguments but even plastic toy soldiers can bring about that level of heat too.

The thing there as it was explained to me is that there are a couple of guys trying to also get on with the design studio and want to be seen as promoting a positive productive environment. Additionally they really love the direction of AOS and don't want other GW devs seeing criticism because they don't want the rules changed and if the GW devs are in a forum seeing critique they are afraid of a "knee jerk reaction" to appease people complaining.

Take that with salt, thats just how it was explained to me by people that are actually over there. I have no contact with any of the rules devs or people that matter to be able to confirm any of that, but it does make sense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:
auticus wrote:
The Great Unclean One with the bell will make them move faster. The cycle of nurgle wheel has the ability to let them move faster on top of that. There's a spell that lets you pick what cycle of nurgle you are in so can further guarantee that.

Additionally the new tree model lets you run and charge if you are within 7" of it improving their mobility even more.

It will be conceivable for them to pull off turn 1 charges depending on deployment and turn 2 charges can be pretty much guaranteed, so them being slow is not a thing anymore.

Does that excuse them from being given an ability worth say 212 points (which is what my calculator puts them at which lands them in the middle of the bell curve) and then only charged 160 points for it?

Thats quite the discount. The bell curve for this would be around 187 - 225 or so. 160 is a bargain. Current price of 180 is a slight bargain and still puts them outside of the bell curve on the undercosted side. If the reason for this bargain is that they are slow, that would be a fallacy IMO because they aren't slow if they can get across the board and into combat by turn 2 reliably. If they moved 4" with no way to move faster, I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the slow movement accounts for some discount.

This is in the same territory as the skeleton units getting basically a free extra unit because of their discount AND free buff abilities for large size.

In one regards, I hate it because its skewing balance. As a game designer, I try to keep everything in the bell curve. This also encourages spamming powerlists that are all similar or the same, which is something else i strongly dislike.

On the other hand every faction is getting items that skew balance, so whatever. The old if everything is busted nothing is. If you aren't playing an updated list though you are hating life.

Yeah, this is actually good, and this is why they are obviously OP for that cost. But I just wanted to point that a unit can be very "strong" in a void, but being balanced in the context of his faction. (Thats why for example I'll never expect to have more mathematically efficient Khorne shooting units, than a Elf army, because my Khorne units should pay a premium for helping me overcome one of my weakness. In reality that translated in people ignoring those options and just spamming the most OP unit in the faction? Yeah. But thats is down to other problems of the ruleset).
Personally I believe is a problem making "Nurgle" armies so fast. They should be literally the slowest faction of the game (On par with zombie hordes)

I do concede that math in a void is not fully valid. The more complex the environment, the less mathematics in a vacuum are relevant. However, AOS is not very complex and is essentially a few primary factors when it comes down to beiing able to win games consistently:

* strength of ranged attacks. Because you are not limited to what you can shoot but melee units can get slowed down, strong ranged attacks are like gold
* number of mortal wounds you can output - because your opponent largely cannot save against them
* strength of melee attacks, or being able to dish out statistically a lot of damage after saves (so either high number of wounds with no rend, or lower number of wounds with high rends)
* beiing able to absorb damage by getting additional saves or beinga ble to save vs mortal wounds

the biggest player skill other than min/max your list with the above is target priority.

If you can min/max the numbers above and combine that with solid target priority, you are a "good player". Movement and positioning don't really matter as much because a lot of things can get across the board so fast and/or teleport directly where they want that it borders on being a version of a collectible card game with dice. (i'm not saying thats not fun miind you i'm saying those are the skills I find that really matter in determining good players vs not so good players)

**NinthMusketeer**

"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid; X will not happen." -At the release of GHB1

X happens.

"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid, Y will not happen." -At the release of GHB2

Y happens.

"No Auticus, your math doesn't prove the point and your concerns are invalid, Z will not happen." -Now

Anyone want to make a bet?

**Wayniac**

But has it? I Mean, I like auticus (now, anways; we butted heads on BOLS long ago). But I do think he puts a little too much faith in his math and his comp system. It's good, yes, and probably better than SCGT/GHB Matched was or will be, but it's not perfect. The game isn't quite as degenerate as the doom and gloom has predicted. I get that his area is full of min/maxing tryhards who will jump on anything and everything if it gives an advantage, that's very unfortunate, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be that bad across the game.

**auticus**

I had a fun conversation with someone today on BOLS about how math can't be used in game design. Its a gem.

I'm wrong and incorrect and a bad man.

"Blightkings at 160 points are just fine. They won't be dominating the tournament scene"

Fallacy: that the tournament scene is the conclusive evidence that is needed to determine something's power. That 4 or 5 large scale events a YEAR are conclusive evidence.

"You saying blight kings are undercost and very efficient now is just plain wrong because I'd take skyfires every time."

Fallacy: that if another unit is more powerful then that means the unit in question cannot be efficient at all because something more powerful exists.

Fallacy: that if out of 1000 units, a unit comes in at say... #15 in raw score efficiency that because units #1 - #5 are grossly undercost that means that coming in #15 out of 1000 doesn't mean its one of the most efficient units in the game. Because saying that is "vague".

The community is on a roll today. A roll I tell ya.

I've got some more blight kings to put together. If anyone complains I'll just tell them that math doesn't matter and that they should just git gud

**Galas**

I agree Auticus. Player skill at the end of the day in warhammer40k and AoS comes down to nearly 70-80% list-building and target priority. Then the rest comes down to how do you need to place your models for auras, meele consolidation, etc...

I believe in general movility and damage output should be dialed down a bit. Like they did in Heroes of the Storm. A 5% nerf across the board for healing, life and damage to all supports of the game, because they where mathemathcally the most efficient and powerfull heroes of the game.

As many other people say, is not about making a perfect game. Is about making a "good enough" game that is good and engagin. Super Smash Bros Brawl is for many the best fighting game out there. Very fun and balanced. But in competitive tournaments, literally something like 78% of the players use FOX (I don't remember the exact number but it was disproportionate). Min/Maxing in the high end of competitive scene will ALWAYS happen. Because if theres even a 5% power difference people will use it.
And I remember the article that Wainiac, you linked, about Street Figther 2, with Akuma, etc... that was a good insight in all this competitive vs casual.
Of course, the problem is that normally with online games, you have a ton of "casual" modes. In warhammer, if your group only play with ultra-competitive lists, you are screwed.