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 Sim-Life wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

You're essentially trying to justify removing the 0-1 hardcap on Comanders by comparing the Commander to a unit with a 0-1 hardcap...

Your entire premise was that Tau commanders were the only case of extremely shooty and untargettable.

No. His premise was that they're the only HQ unit thats is shooty enough to be considered by WAAC pkayers to be worth spamming.

The people arguing against that are being needlessly obtuse.

Then they accused him of "moving the goal posts" when what he was doing was clarifying his opinion because ofnnitpicking replies.

WAAC players aren't playing Tau. The people spamming commanders and drones are Tau players using the only feasible competitive build in the index due to the obscene amount of nerfs that hit most of the rest of the mainstay Tau units.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

You're essentially trying to justify removing the 0-1 hardcap on Comanders by comparing the Commander to a unit with a 0-1 hardcap...

Your entire premise was that Tau commanders were the only case of extremely shooty and untargettable.

No. His premise was that they're the only HQ unit thats is shooty enough to be considered by WAAC pkayers to be worth spamming.

The people arguing against that are being needlessly obtuse.

Then they accused him of "moving the goal posts" when what he was doing was clarifying his opinion because ofnnitpicking replies.

WAAC players aren't playing Tau. The people spamming commanders and drones are Tau players using the only feasible competitive build in the index due to the obscene amount of nerfs that hit most of the rest of the mainstay Tau units.

I never said WAAC players are playing T'au.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
WAAC players aren't playing Tau. The people spamming commanders and drones are Tau players using the only feasible competitive build in the index due to the obscene amount of nerfs that hit most of the rest of the mainstay Tau units.

So what you're saying is that more nerfs are required, and then maybe the Tau will go away?

Sign me up!

So, when you said that WAAC players consider the Tau commander to be the only shooty HQ unit worth spamming, you weren't saying that WAAC players were the ones spamming Tau commanders.

If the Tau commander was such an issue, that it was literally the best shooting HQ unit in the game, why aren't WAAC playing Tau to spam it?

Probably because one good shooty HQ doesn't make an army OP. When you have an army with the best shooty HQ in the game and it still isn't being played by WAAC players, you should kind of ask why not. And the answer to that is that the rest of the units (drones and fire warriors excepted) are not good for their points. The solution is not, therefore, to take away one of the few good units the army has, but rather to make other units in the army worth taking instead. From what we've seen, GW has not done that.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, when you said that WAAC players consider the Tau commander to be the only shooty HQ unit worth spamming, you weren't saying that WAAC players were the ones spamming Tau commanders.

If the Tau commander was such an issue, that it was literally the best shooting HQ unit in the game, why aren't WAAC playing Tau to spam it?

Probably because one good shooty HQ doesn't make an army OP. When you have an army with the best shooty HQ in the game and it still isn't being played by WAAC players, you should kind of ask why not. And the answer to that is that the rest of the units (drones and fire warriors excepted) are not good for their points. The solution is not, therefore, to take away one of the few good units the army has, but rather to make other units in the army worth taking instead. From what we've seen, GW has not done that.

"From what we've seen" is almost nothing.

Until you can see the codex in it's entirety with point costs and start hammering out some builds you have no idea what your looking at. Tau are not only receiving massive point adjustments according to the rumors but the weapon profiles and special abilities are being tweaked all over the place. Nobody knows where any of it stands until over a week from now.

 lolman1c wrote:
I just kinda feel you are complaining. You have a pretty epic looking codex and I look on in jealousy!

So far we have worse Jormungandr sept which is kinda meh (don't move at all to get cover vs don't advance), Bork'an (which is good with all non assault weapons), T'au (slightly better friendly overwatch, but if you're being charged as tau it's over anyways for that unit barring a few exceptions), and Farsight, which improves shooting against units that are about to charge, or are charging you.

Riptides got improved a bit, hopefully not to 7th levels, but also hopefully they don't get a price hike to go with the improved weapons (of which I'm still not sure they're worth it TBH)

 MinscS2 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I just kinda feel you are complaining. You have a pretty epic looking codex and I look on in jealousy!

The problem is, this limit is so absurd that the rest of the codex doesn't even matter to many players the moment you introduce it.

I have over 5k points worth of models. and I now can't run even a simple battalion because despite having 4 different HQ models (R'alai, shadowsun, enforcer, coldstar), only one of the four can be used in a detachment.

And Eldar-players complained when Wraithknights where turned into LoW's in 7th.

Adapt. Get an Ethereal or a Fireblade, or get both, and some Firewarriors. Now you'll have two cheap battalions and two commanders in your list.
(Honestly. my main issue with this 'restriction' is how easy it is to circumvent due to multiple detatchment and cheap troops. Makes me wonder why GW even bother with it in the first place.)

I doubt that Tau Commanders will be the first HQ-unit with restrictions however.

There's a big difference between a heavy support unit becoming a LoW and an HQ unit being 1 per detachment. The WK change didn't affect army comp out side of "split it up into more detachments using the same models" while the tau change forces a total revamp of an army if you played with anything other than a patrol/spearhead/vanguard/etc

To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

Unless you're moving to grab objectives. Or see past some LoS blocking terrain. Or shoot a better target, or move to hopefully make a charge harder to reach you.

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

Their guns are overcosted though, to the point where that is irrelevant. When compared to imperial equivalents most of their guns are just too pricy. Nids cost what they should usually when compared to tau. Tau need price slashes across the board.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

They’re guns are overcosted though, to the point where that is irrelevant. When compared to imperial equivalents most of their guns are just too pricy. Nids cost what they should usually when compared to tau. Tau need price slashes across the board.

Which has been indicated is generally happening?

 meleti wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

I'm just pointing out it's an untargettable HQ with good shooting. Obviously they're not identical units.

Your bar for what qualifies as "good shooting" is clearly very different from mine.

Yeah, clearly. Do consider anything less shooty than a Tau Commander to have bad shooting?

Pretty much. I do too for the record. To compare the custodes shield captain to the quad fusion commander or any powerful variant is laughable

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

They’re guns are overcosted though, to the point where that is irrelevant. When compared to imperial equivalents most of their guns are just too pricy. Nids cost what they should usually when compared to tau. Tau need price slashes across the board.

Which has been indicated is generally happening?

We will see if it is enough.

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

I mean.. only if i decide tabling my opponent is how I must win.. I play mostly objective games, and Crisis are too expensive to "spam" Shas'O'Fly'O only takes 1 point a time, if its uncontested.

Reality is tau need to move a lot. Maybe a cluster of 1-2 Stike teams and 1 fireblade will stay still, but if its d3 points to grab point 2, someone is trying to move to point 2

Yes, you are all doomed. GW hates you all and is finally able to bring their plot to ruin your army to fruition.

There's no point in trying to hide it from them anymore guys, they've realized the sky really is falling.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Yes, you are all doomed. GW hates you all and is finally able to bring their plot to ruin your army to fruition.

There's no point in trying to hide it from them anymore guys, they've realized the sky really is falling.

Validation!

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Yes, you are all doomed. GW hates you all and is finally able to bring their plot to ruin your army to fruition.

There's no point in trying to hide it from them anymore guys, they've realized the sky really is falling.

When did this turn into a grey Knights thread?

The Grey Knights are fairly new to whining, as apposed to the veteran Tau whiners. But both pale in comparison to the masters of the whine; the Sisters of Battle.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Grey Knights are fairly new to whining, as apposed to the veteran Tau whiners. But both pale in comparison to the masters of the whine; the Sisters of Battle.

The Eldar players FAR outwhine anyone else. They had a bad codex in 5th and decided to pretend 6th and 7th editions didn't exist for the benefit of complaining and now they have a good but not OP codex (except for dark reapers) and STILL whine about not being amazing.

They were mid-tier in 5th. They were downright filthy when buffing warwalkers with Eldrad. They were playing 6th/7th before anyone else

 Therion wrote:
Dark Angels Sammael on Sableclaw (unique) and Dark Angels Talonmaster (fully spammable) shoot 18 times per model, ignore cover and re-reroll hits and wounds while being untargetable. They’re very competitive choices too both in soups and with Dark Talon spams.

So, you’re wrong. Dead wrong.

Tau were nerfed because one of two reasons. 1) Someone at GW has a hate boner for Tau

In case you slept last 6 months, the guns found on DA speeders, assault cannons, were strongly nerfed.

Better Tau ones not only were not, but got a buff. Because reasons.

Tau HQ weapons, too, see that D2 plasma gun without gets hot or special snowflake melta cannons, that can (unlike say, something as unwieldy and huge as melta pistol) be used in CC as swords without downsides, even though fluff mentions it's impossible. Or Dreadnought CCW equivalent on marine sized model's arm.

Meanwhile, SM commanders forgot keys to armoury and can't even take something as stupidly common as plasma gun, never mind something effective like assault cannon or cyclone, which Tau can take in quadruples, for less, because again, reasons.

Something, something, look how glassy your house is before throwing stones.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, when you said that WAAC players consider the Tau commander to be the only shooty HQ unit worth spamming, you weren't saying that WAAC players were the ones spamming Tau commanders.

If the Tau commander was such an issue, that it was literally the best shooting HQ unit in the game, why aren't WAAC playing Tau to spam it?

Probably because one good shooty HQ doesn't make an army OP. When you have an army with the best shooty HQ in the game and it still isn't being played by WAAC players, you should kind of ask why not. And the answer to that is that the rest of the units (drones and fire warriors excepted) are not good for their points. The solution is not, therefore, to take away one of the few good units the army has, but rather to make other units in the army worth taking instead. From what we've seen, GW has not done that.

Big Riptide buff and price cuts, Ghostkeel buff and price cut, huge Broadside price cuts... and that's just the battlesuits (my primary focus) and not counting relics, sept tenets and stratagems. For some reason many people only focus on the fact that Commanders are restricted and that Crisis suits haven't received price cuts (would've been nice but isn't really a dealbreaker for me).

I can only speak for myself, but I am actually very excited for this codex. Most units I want got a buff so I'm very happy. That said, the commander nerf was mishandled, since it didn't target the underlying problem between commanders and crisis suits. In fact, it made it worse (relics/traits) since there is an even bigger power gap between the two. With all the other buffs, Crisis suits will no longer be mainstay units and will likely be shelved.

Since this is a thread specifically on the commander limit I haven't brought up other units because I thought they were irrelevant.

Dandelion wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but I am actually very excited for this codex.

Don't worry, you're not alone.

I'm very excited for this Codex. All the "bad" stuff are things that I don't use (Basically Crisis spam and Commanders)... and all my favourite tactics are being buffed so... yeah.

Is the time for my Devilfish+Breacher mechanized force with Stealth Suit and Vespids support commanded by Ethereals to shine.

 Irbis wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Dark Angels Sammael on Sableclaw (unique) and Dark Angels Talonmaster (fully spammable) shoot 18 times per model, ignore cover and re-reroll hits and wounds while being untargetable. They’re very competitive choices too both in soups and with Dark Talon spams.

So, you’re wrong. Dead wrong.

Tau were nerfed because one of two reasons. 1) Someone at GW has a hate boner for Tau

In case you slept last 6 months, the guns found on DA speeders, assault cannons, were strongly nerfed.

Better Tau ones not only were not, but got a buff. Because reasons.

Tau HQ weapons, too, see that D2 plasma gun without gets hot or special snowflake melta cannons, that can (unlike say, something as unwieldy and huge as melta pistol) be used in CC as swords without downsides, even though fluff mentions it's impossible. Or Dreadnought CCW equivalent on marine sized model's arm.

Meanwhile, SM commanders forgot keys to armoury and can't even take something as stupidly common as plasma gun, never mind something effective like assault cannon or cyclone, which Tau can take in quadruples, for less, because again, reasons.

Something, something, look how glassy your house is before throwing stones.

Both of those items you grabbed without looking at are unique. The D2 plasma gun is on farsight only, and the fusion blades are a relic.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

Unless you're moving to grab objectives. Or see past some LoS blocking terrain. Or shoot a better target, or move to hopefully make a charge harder to reach you.

Hooray, welcome to every other army that has to actually move to play the game.

For the other 4 turns of the game where more than likely most of your army won't be moving, you get a +1 to your save. Hell, if you don't get first turn, don't worry, you get army wide bonuses to +1 to your save - meanwhile marine (loyalist and chaos) vehicle drivers renounced their legion when they jumped into the drivers seat.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, Tau have significantly less reason to move than nids. Their guns are WAY longer range with synergies giving them way better accuracy.

Their Jormungandr trait should actually amount to the same thing for the most part.

Unless you're moving to grab objectives. Or see past some LoS blocking terrain. Or shoot a better target, or move to hopefully make a charge harder to reach you.

Hooray, welcome to every other army that has to actually move to play the game.

For the other 4 turns of the game where more than likely most of your army won't be moving, you get a +1 to your save. Hell, if you don't get first turn, don't worry, you get army wide bonuses to +1 to your save - meanwhile marine (loyalist and chaos) vehicle drivers renounced their legion when they jumped into the drivers seat.

What army are you playing that doesn't move 80% of the game? Genuinely curious.

Yeah, everyone is acting like they went out and bought 2k points of commanders. I'm sure the avarage tau player who doesn't play competitively will love this codex! Now I'm going back to my Orks where my long range weapons are just as expensive and more than the marine and xenos counterparts.

To be fair, this thread is specifically about commanders and not the codex as a whole, which is why there are so many negative responses. So while most people will be happy with the codex (I hope) it still doesn't excuse this particular issue.

Also, I really hope Orks get good shooting, for everyone's sake.

Dandelion wrote:
To be fair, this thread is specifically about commanders and not the codex as a whole, which is why there are so many negative responses. So while most people will be happy with the codex (I hope) it still doesn't excuse this particular issue.

Neither did Commissars being sledgehammered into the ground.
Neither did Guard Command Squads each requiring an Officer.

GW's playing catch-up to metas that have already effectively been neutered. That's the problem with balancing feedback around tournaments and the like.