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I just wish they'd put more effort into their arguments than 'Bible' and 'NASA CGI, because NASA is an anagram of Satan, and it's run by Jesuits. Or possibly illuminati. Or was it Jews this week? I'll check the log book'.
Basically any conspiracy theory that requires a globe spanning web of political intrigue and not a single mistake being made is clearly going to be bunkum. Look at our respective Governments, folks. Do they look at all competent in any way, shape or form? Regardless of party, do they really, honestly, strike you as being able to manipulate world wide events? Or are they still simply blundering about in the gloom, the way Governments always have?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I just wish they'd put more effort into their arguments than 'Bible' and 'NASA CGI, because NASA is an anagram of Satan, and it's run by Jesuits. Or possibly illuminati. Or was it Jews this week? I'll check the log book'.
Basically any conspiracy theory that requires a globe spanning web of political intrigue and not a single mistake being made is clearly going to be bunkum. Look at our respective Governments, folks. Do they look at all competent in any way, shape or form? Regardless of party, do they really, honestly, strike you as being able to manipulate world wide events? Or are they still simply blundering about in the gloom, the way Governments always have?
Flat Earth is really the weakest conspiracy theory ever, because even if you believe NASA and the Illuminati are lying to you and faking everything, you can prove the earth is round with just a stick in your yard (on a sunny day). There's a reason it's been know for thousands of years, and I don't think NASA was posting fake pictures of the Earth at the time…
There is actually a conspiracy there, funnily enough. The KGB spread the claim that the US created AIDS, in a program called Operation Infektion. The claims were embraced in various parts of the world, including among African Americans in the US.
In the early 90s Russia was unable to cope with its own AIDS epidemic, and called on support from the rest of the world. The US gave aid on condition Russia admitted it invented the Infektion claims out of thin air as an attack on America. They did, but the lies were already out there, and are still believed by a lot of people today.
State media in Russia has returned to occasionally bringing up the claim. Back around when the whole Ukraine debacle was just getting started the English version of Russia Today hosted an hour long segment with a guy who wrote an entire book about how the CIA and America invented AIDs to kill black people and gays.
The most annoying conspiracy is the one where the government is silencing evidence of its involvement in 9/11 by using its mind-control chemtrails against anyone who speaks out about it, thus depriving me of the fun of ritually slaughtering the gullible in debate. I mean, we have a conspiracy theory thread here and not a single person has offered themselves up as a sacrifice posted in support of the conspiracy!
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I think far more UFO sightings are legitimate than most people are willing to give credit to..
By 'legitimate' you mean 'aliens'?
Because technically a 'legitimate' UFO sighting is any that includes an object that is unidentified. That's the very definition of what a 'UFO' is. People have just conflated it to mean 'Alien Spaceship' in their minds. I've confused a lot of people over the years by pointing out that UFOs are real, but that doesn't mean that they're aliens spaceships... The two are so intrinsically linked by popular culture that a lot of people have forgotten the actual meaning of the word. Once you identify it as an alien spaceship, it's no longer a UFO...
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Look at our respective Governments, folks. Do they look at all competent in any way, shape or form?
That's just what they want you to think...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/27 11:51:18
2018/03/27 14:06:59
Subject: Re:Conspiracy Theories: What's your take?
Another one I find quite interesting that I think may have cropped up on here in another thread before is the Titanic/Olympic conspiracy. Proponents suggest that prior to the infamous maiden voyage Titanic was swapped with her almost identical older sister RMS Olympic which had been damaged previously by a collision with HMS Hawke and deliberately sacrificed by White Star as an insurance scam. It hasn't helped that a lot of "Titanic" pictures published around the time are of Olympic instead since there were so few genuine pictures of Titanic taken before she sailed and (I'm guessing here) newspaper editors at the time probably didn't think many people would notice or care since the two were almost indistinguishable. Whilst IIRC for most this one was pretty soundly put to bed by physical evidence recovered from the wreck which could have only come from Titanic there are still die hard proponents who are willing to ignore evidence to the contrary in order to propagate their chosen pet theory.
That's pretty indicative of a fair number of conspiracy theory fans in my experience though, presented with conflicting evidence they have a kind of fingers-in-the-ears "But I still believe!" attitude regardless.
You're doing this all wrong. I have almost a quarter of a century invested in this. I'm not interested in your facts. I just know she did it. That's all there is to it.
Not sure if my sarcasm detector is on the fritz, but are you being serious here? I'd be genuinely interesting in hearing your thinking behind this although to be completely honest I'm not sure I'd be convinced.
I agree it wasn't a conspiracy, but I don't think we need to go as far as saying it must be incompetence or arrogance either. Militaries can't be operated on constant states of readiness.
There was a definite arrogance on the part of western militaries about the superiority of western over Asian troops and technology, conflicting views such as those experiences reported by Chennault's American Volunteer Group were largely ignored. As for Pearl Harbour in particular, there were warnings on the day which coupled with a Japan which had been generally pretty aggressive and expansionist for a number of years probably ought to have not been ignored and at least warranted a closer examination and a higher alert state. When you're effectively ignoring multiple suspect contacts I don't think it's unfair to suggest incompetence was at least a factor and ultimately both Kimmel and Short saw their careers effectively ended because of the attack. Of course it still wouldn't have prevented the attack, but it might not have been quite so damaging, but then hindsight is always perfect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/27 16:24:05
I think far more UFO sightings are legitimate than most people are willing to give credit to..
By 'legitimate' you mean 'aliens'?
Because technically a 'legitimate' UFO sighting is any that includes an object that is unidentified. That's the very definition of what a 'UFO' is. People have just conflated it to mean 'Alien Spaceship' in their minds. I've confused a lot of people over the years by pointing out that UFOs are real, but that doesn't mean that they're aliens spaceships... The two are so intrinsically linked by popular culture that a lot of people have forgotten the actual meaning of the word. Once you identify it as an alien spaceship, it's no longer a UFO...
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Look at our respective Governments, folks. Do they look at all competent in any way, shape or form?
That's just what they want you to think...
You can't fake that level of incompetence
And mighty good, and correct, point about UFOs. If I see a plane in the sky at night, at first it's just a single light I can clearly notice. At that point, it is very much a UFO. Soon as I've looked at it long enough, or it comes closer, I'll usually see the wing and tail lights blinking. At that point, it's identified.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Verviedi wrote: - The CIA was probably involved in the JFK assassination - JFK was likely to curb their abuses of power, and we all know what shadowy, out-of-control organizations do when their alleged "Commander In Chief" is going to remove some of their powers.
There is one small problem. The FBI found no evidence of anyone contacting Oswald for over a week before the shooting. I have a hard time believing a government agency WOULD set this up and then leave the shooter unattended for a full week. Especially the paranoid type of agency that would assassinate a president for the reasons you cite.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/28 00:23:55
A few years ago, while I was in the park, one of the local characters started talking about The Black Pope of the Jesuits, and how he had turned into a reptoid, right there in front of him.
He went on in this vein for a little while, and then wandered off.
The person that I was talking to, a good Catholic boy, looked at me and said 'You know, that doesn't mean that a reptoid wouldn't make a good Jesuit.'
Which, if you know any Jesuits, is a fair point...
The Auld Grump - I was educated by Jesuits....
*EDIT* The 'Black Pope' is a common slang term for the Superior General of the Jesuit Order. When I was a wee tyke, the Superior General was worthy of being a Bond Villain - golden gloves, ambidextrous fencer, fluent in many, many languages... and had survived a nuclear bomb. He even had a goatee.
I think far more UFO sightings are legitimate than most people are willing to give credit to..
By 'legitimate' you mean 'aliens'?
By 'Aliens' do you mean 'Extraterrestrials'?
If the unidentified flying object is from Mexico or Canada, it counts as 'alien', right?
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/28 00:56:09
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
insaniak wrote: Because technically a 'legitimate' UFO sighting is any that includes an object that is unidentified. That's the very definition of what a 'UFO' is. People have just conflated it to mean 'Alien Spaceship' in their minds. I've confused a lot of people over the years by pointing out that UFOs are real, but that doesn't mean that they're aliens spaceships... The two are so intrinsically linked by popular culture that a lot of people have forgotten the actual meaning of the word. Once you identify it as an alien spaceship, it's no longer a UFO...
There are no UFOs because we know they're aliens so there's only IFOs.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
simonr1978 wrote: There was a definite arrogance on the part of western militaries about the superiority of western over Asian troops and technology, conflicting views such as those experiences reported by Chennault's American Volunteer Group were largely ignored. As for Pearl Harbour in particular, there were warnings on the day which coupled with a Japan which had been generally pretty aggressive and expansionist for a number of years probably ought to have not been ignored and at least warranted a closer examination and a higher alert state. When you're effectively ignoring multiple suspect contacts I don't think it's unfair to suggest incompetence was at least a factor and ultimately both Kimmel and Short saw their careers effectively ended because of the attack. Of course it still wouldn't have prevented the attack, but it might not have been quite so damaging, but then hindsight is always perfect.
There was definitely an arrogance about superiority over the Japanese military.
However, the multiple suspect contacts is exactly what I'm talking about. A dozen strange things happening, seen collectively and with the hindsight knowledge of what actually happened... well yeah it's obvious. But all those bits of information aren't seen together. They're seen in isolation, with no knowledge of the other bits of information. The officer hearing reports of engagement with a Jap sub doesn't know there's also been a report of a significant activity on the radar, and so is much more likely to interpret the info with his default assumption that nothing is happening. The same is true for the officer receiving reports of activity on the radar, he doesn't know about the other bits of evidence so he's more likely to interpret it in the context of his default assumption that nothing is happening. Because each bit of information is at first assessed with no knowledge of the other bits, it is likely to be written off and not sent up the chain to where a higher up could see all the bits of information in combination.
It probably sounds like I'm trying to defend the officers involved, that isn't what I intend. Obviously Japanese planes reached Pearl Harbour with no warning, so these guys screwed up. My argument is more that screw ups like this happen all the time. Look at 9/11, there was a wealth of clues that put together and viewed with hindsight make the impending attack predictable, but like Pearl Harbour the default assumptions were wrong, so this info wasn't ever put all together in one place, and the attack wasn't predicted. It isn't a conspiracy or an inexplicable failure of duty, it's just a reality of how information systems work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 02:19:52
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Mrs. Esterhouse wrote: I honestly and truly believe Richard Gere puts gerbils in his butt.
Wait, that's a conspiracy theory? I just thought that was a given. Kind of like how Tom Cruise keeps young men in speedos locked up in a cage behind his home.
By UFOs, I meant that I wholeheartedly believe that more of the reported/photographed/whatever UFO sightings are extraterrestrial in origin than are given credit for. Even if it's one that is indeed extraterrestrial in origin, that's more than they give it credit for.
In my mind it is simply arrogance to think we are the only intelligent life in this cosmos.
Just Tony wrote: In my mind it is simply arrogance to think we are the only intelligent life in this cosmos.
There is a world of difference between believing there is other intelligent life in the universe, and believing they have travelled to Earth, not to engage with us but just to fly about the sky doing impossible aeronautic stunts.
Not saying you're right or wrong about UFOs, just saying you're mischaracterizing the skeptical position.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/28 07:26:53
Subject: Re:Conspiracy Theories: What's your take?
There was definitely an arrogance about superiority over the Japanese military.
However, the multiple suspect contacts is exactly what I'm talking about. A dozen strange things happening, seen collectively and with the hindsight knowledge of what actually happened... well yeah it's obvious. But all those bits of information aren't seen together. They're seen in isolation, with no knowledge of the other bits of information. The officer hearing reports of engagement with a Jap sub doesn't know there's also been a report of a significant activity on the radar, and so is much more likely to interpret the info with his default assumption that nothing is happening. The same is true for the officer receiving reports of activity on the radar, he doesn't know about the other bits of evidence so he's more likely to interpret it in the context of his default assumption that nothing is happening. Because each bit of information is at first assessed with no knowledge of the other bits, it is likely to be written off and not sent up the chain to where a higher up could see all the bits of information in combination.
It probably sounds like I'm trying to defend the officers involved, that isn't what I intend. Obviously Japanese planes reached Pearl Harbour with no warning, so these guys screwed up. My argument is more that screw ups like this happen all the time. Look at 9/11, there was a wealth of clues that put together and viewed with hindsight make the impending attack predictable, but like Pearl Harbour the default assumptions were wrong, so this info wasn't ever put all together in one place, and the attack wasn't predicted. It isn't a conspiracy or an inexplicable failure of duty, it's just a reality of how information systems work.
It's this kind of systemic failure to join up the dots at the time which I was meaning when I referred to incompetence. The incompetence of the system as a whole that failed to recognise the warning signs on the day and didn't have the checks and overviews in place to make sure that someone senior was seeing the bigger picture here rather than necessarily the individual (Usually fairly junior) members of it that made errors. Kimmel and Short were in command during this and both were ultimately saw their careers end because of it, whether that was necessarily fair of not is another matter. I understand that I'm benefiting from nearly 80 years worth of hindsight now, but considering the global situation at the time I would have thought that the major US naval base in the Pacific should have paid a bit closer attention to the warnings on the day, that a fairly junior officer was in a position to disregard the radar reports rather than pass that information up the chain, that the default assumption was "They're probably ours, it's probably nothing to worry to about" for example IMO represents incompetence as an individual and an organisation.
As I indicated earlier, it still wouldn't have stopped the attack and it probably would have still been very damaging to the US Pacific fleet, but it might not have been quite so badly hit. However, I am willing to accept that I am looking at this with full hindsight and maybe these kind of occurances were not uncommon at the time, either way though (And desperately trying to refer back to the original topic), I just don't see the conspiracy there either.
When I was doing biology assignments and watching insect colonies, I didn't shake their "hands". We're the ants/beehive/whatever here. We're a curiosity, nothing more. Once we figure out how to travel in space fast enough to start reaching other solar systems in a viable amount of time, THEN they'll either shake our hands or subjugate us. The former if you're me, the latter if you're Stephen Hawking
simonr1978 wrote: It's this kind of systemic failure to join up the dots at the time which I was meaning when I referred to incompetence. The incompetence of the system as a whole that failed to recognise the warning signs on the day and didn't have the checks and overviews in place to make sure that someone senior was seeing the bigger picture here rather than necessarily the individual (Usually fairly junior) members of it that made errors. Kimmel and Short were in command during this and both were ultimately saw their careers end because of it, whether that was necessarily fair of not is another matter.
Honestly probably the biggest mistake was from Roosevelt, in placing the whole of the Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbour as an empty bit of posturing, and making it vulnerable to attack. Presidents tend not to sack themselves though
I understand that I'm benefiting from nearly 80 years worth of hindsight now, but considering the global situation at the time I would have thought that the major US naval base in the Pacific should have paid a bit closer attention to the warnings on the day, that a fairly junior officer was in a position to disregard the radar reports rather than pass that information up the chain, that the default assumption was "They're probably ours, it's probably nothing to worry to about" for example IMO represents incompetence as an individual and an organisation.
As I indicated earlier, it still wouldn't have stopped the attack and it probably would have still been very damaging to the US Pacific fleet, but it might not have been quite so badly hit. However, I am willing to accept that I am looking at this with full hindsight and maybe these kind of occurances were not uncommon at the time, either way though (And desperately trying to refer back to the original topic), I just don't see the conspiracy there either.
Cool. Just to clarify I'm not saying there wasn't a lot of mistakes made, or that individuals who made bad calls shouldn't be criticised. I'm just saying these kinds of mistakes aren't really out of the ordinary, even today. Even with our much more sophisticated information gathering today these kinds of things still happen, because having all the information doesn't help you when that information is filtered through assumptions that are wrong.
Interpreting data in real time, with no knowledge of any big surprises that might be just around the corner is a tough gig, and when you get it wrong then subsequent reviews will be able to assemble all the available clues, review them with hindsight knowledge, and it will end up making your mistakes look far worse than they really were. That's all I'm saying.
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Just Tony wrote: When I was doing biology assignments and watching insect colonies, I didn't shake their "hands". We're the ants/beehive/whatever here. We're a curiosity, nothing more. Once we figure out how to travel in space fast enough to start reaching other solar systems in a viable amount of time, THEN they'll either shake our hands or subjugate us. The former if you're me, the latter if you're Stephen Hawking
Dude, I said I wasn't engaging in whether there are UFOs. I was just pointing out that your summation of people who think they aren't UFOs was wrong - it isn't that they don't believe there could be any other life in the galaxy, it's that they believe that if there is other life then it probably isn't flying all the way to Earth just to wobble about in the sky then zoom off.
Whether your assumption is right or there's I'm not going to engage in, because it's all so speculative. I was just explaining your summation of the other side wasn't fair.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/28 08:12:53
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/28 09:53:36
Subject: Re:Conspiracy Theories: What's your take?
Person 1 hears about people who saw things in the sky they couldn't identify.
Person 1 then says "obviously it has to be extraterrestrial guys who come visit us"
Person 2 says "well, I don't really see the evidence"
Person 1 replies "You're a fool if you don't believe in aliens"
The fact that it's not completely impossible that UFOs are actually ET spaceship doesn't mean it's actually the case.
And I don't think that every instance of something unidentifiable is alien in origin. I'm well aware that every nation has top secret aircraft that get tested constantly. Hell, think about the B2 Spirit for example. One of those flying ANYWHERE within view of human beings before the press release would have set off every possible ET theory. We know that there were at least a few B2 sightings that were reported and had to be dismissed as something else entirely.
I totally get that.
However, I don't rule the possibility of any of the sightings being ET, even ONE is more than most would consider. We've scientists who tell us how improbable it is that there would be ETs show up. Scientists also told us the coelacanth was extinct.
A popular argument against most theories is that Trump would have tweeted about them by now.
But from my understanding about classification levels and security clearances, “need to know” still trumps clearance levels. Even if POTUS has clearance, if he doesn’t need to know, he doesn’t get to know. Basically the argument made in Independence Day I think.
2018/03/28 17:52:46
Subject: Re:Conspiracy Theories: What's your take?
notprop wrote: A bettter question is why do so many conspiracies originate in the US?
Is the US more ‘awoke’ or more full of crazies?
Same reason most TV shows originate in the US. They're the dominant cultural force.
Other places produce whackjob conspiracies, because that's just a human thing. But some guy in the boonies of Iran theorising that Jews are behind the war in Syria doesn't really get in to the dominant media streams, certainly not the media streams that dakka members are most likely to see.
There's another element to the US, aside from being the dominant cultural force. Due to the nature of our existence, with things like the 1st Amendment, we've also put out an astonishing number of religious cults. Some of those have even become quite popular. In their own way, many of these are conspiracy theories on their own (but I'll refrain from that rabbit hole, on the basis of keeping the thread open).
On some of the ones already mentioned:
Usually, when I've encountered a 9/11 Truther, I'm able to shut them down, if not change their mind by pointing out things like the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, or the Zimbardo Experiment and the like. If knowledge of Tuskegee got out, or even something as short lived/small as Zimbardo, what makes you think that the Gov't. could keep as many secrets as would be required by as many people as would be required to pull it off?
@Iron_Captain. . . no, historians are not scientists. LoH used quotes as a means of saying that when we're doing history, we are trying to use scientific means/rules to establish our point. As in, we must have evidence to back up what we are saying in order for it to be accepted as truth.
Verviedi wrote: - The CIA was probably involved in the JFK assassination - JFK was likely to curb their abuses of power, and we all know what shadowy, out-of-control organizations do when their alleged "Commander In Chief" is going to remove some of their powers.
There is one small problem. The FBI found no evidence of anyone contacting Oswald for over a week before the shooting. I have a hard time believing a government agency WOULD set this up and then leave the shooter unattended for a full week. Especially the paranoid type of agency that would assassinate a president for the reasons you cite.
Clearly, the CIA were just that good at covering their tracks back then
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 17:56:11
2018/03/28 18:17:05
Subject: Re:Conspiracy Theories: What's your take?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: @Iron_Captain. . . no, historians are not scientists. LoH used quotes as a means of saying that when we're doing history, we are trying to use scientific means/rules to establish our point. As in, we must have evidence to back up what we are saying in order for it to be accepted as truth.
I.E. History is the application of the scientific method to past events to explain the human story.
In terms of academia, just like any scientist a Historian has to publish or die. No Historian gets into the field to repeat what has already been said.
Two Commercial Pilots Had a Close Encounter With a Possible UFO Over Arizona.
Spoiler:
The Federal Aviation Administration has released radio traffic from two commercial pilots, including the pilot of an American Airlines flight, who reported an unidentified flying object over southern Arizona last month.
One pilot, who was flying a Learjet for Phoenix Air Group on Feb. 24, reported seeing a possible UFO pass his plane.
“Was anybody, uh, above us that passed us like 30 seconds ago?” the pilot said, according to an audio recording released by the FAA and obtained by KPNX-TV.
“Negative,” the air traffic controller replied.
“Okay,” the pilot responded. “Something did.”
“Maybe a UFO,” the air traffic controller joked, prompting the Learjet pilot to laugh.
The air traffic controller then radioed American Airlines Flight 1095, which was nearby, to ask the pilot to report if anything passed over the plane “here in the next 15 miles.” The object was reportedly flying at about 37,000 feet.
The Learjet pilot chimed in to say, “I don’t know what it was, it wasn’t an airplane but it was — the path was going in the opposite direction.”
The American Airlines pilot then radioed the air traffic controller about a minute later to report a strange sighting.
“Yeah, something just passed over us, like a — I don’t know what it was,” he said. “But it was at least two, three thousand feet above us. Yeah, it passed right over the top of us.”
Asked if he could tell if the object was moving or just hovering, the pilot said he couldn’t really tell.
“It was just really beaming light or could have had a big reflection and was several thousand feet above us going opposite direction,” he said.
Lynn Lunsford, a spokesperson for the FAA, told the Phoenix New Times the air traffic controller was not able to confirm that another aircraft was flying in the same area, but suggested that the object could have come from elsewhere.
“We have a close working relationship with a number of agencies and safely handle military aircraft and civilian aircraft of all types in that area every day, including high-altitude weather balloons,” Lunsford said.
Makes you kind of wonder what it may have been....
Just Tony wrote: We've scientists who tell us how improbable it is that there would be ETs show up. Scientists also told us the coelacanth was extinct.
Those two aren't the same at all. With the coelacanth there was no theory that it must be extinct, merely a lack of observations of living ones. Finding one wasn't going to overturn any major fields of science. And so, when there turned out to be some of them living in an extremely inaccessible region, the reaction was "great, new data to work with". With aliens you're talking about completely overturning large elements of physics involving things like FTL travel, thermodynamics, etc. You have to bypass all of the known problems with interstellar travel: the massive energy requirements, the easily observable heat output of the spacecraft, and the long duration of travel. You have to special-case every encounter where they're detectable for no apparent reason, then promptly disappear. And these aren't trivial things we're talking about, our modern understanding of physics can't be that badly wrong because so many observations have been made to confirm it and so much engineering work has been done based on it without failing to work.
Now, is it theoretically possible? I suppose, but the burden of proof is incredibly high and it's a last-resort theory.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: And these aren't trivial things we're talking about, our modern understanding of physics can't be that badly wrong because so many observations have been made to confirm it and so much engineering work has been done based on it without failing to work.
Modern science doesn't necessarily have to be wrong for some alien species to be ignoring the laws of physics as we comprehend them. That is to say, we may have empirically tested the existence of certain rules; but that doesn't rule out some undiscovered method of suspending or countering those rules. For example, we can detect gravity from a coin being thrown and falling to the ground, but can currently overrule gravity by exerting a stronger force (magnetism), or alter its effects by messing around in vaccuum chambers and suchlike.
It could well be that there are methods of bypassing the rules around the speed of light and suchlike that we're simply unaware of. It is well and good to say that something is impossible with our current understanding of affairs; but it should always be acknowledged that that understanding is really quite incomplete.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/30 13:08:37
Peregrine wrote: And these aren't trivial things we're talking about, our modern understanding of physics can't be that badly wrong because so many observations have been made to confirm it and so much engineering work has been done based on it without failing to work.
Modern science doesn't necessarily have to be wrong for some alien species to be ignoring the laws of physics as we comprehend them. That is to say, we may have empirically tested the existence of certain rules; but that doesn't rule out some undiscovered method of suspending or countering those rules. For example, we can detect gravity from a coin being thrown and falling to the ground, but can currently overrule gravity by exerting a stronger force (magnetism), or alter its effects by messing around in vaccuum chambers and suchlike.
It could well be that there are methods of bypassing the rules around the speed of light and suchlike that we're simply unaware of. It is well and good to say that something is impossible with our current understanding of affairs; but it should always be acknowledged that that understanding is really quite incomplete.
There is no getting around the fact that the speed of light is the absolute speed limit of the universe. It doesn't matter how technologically advanced you are, Maxwell's equations don't care, special relativity doesn't care, general relativity doesn't care.
All of these have been found to be accurate in every test, even around the most extreme phenomena in the whole universe, black holes.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Peregrine wrote: And these aren't trivial things we're talking about, our modern understanding of physics can't be that badly wrong because so many observations have been made to confirm it and so much engineering work has been done based on it without failing to work.
Modern science doesn't necessarily have to be wrong for some alien species to be ignoring the laws of physics as we comprehend them. That is to say, we may have empirically tested the existence of certain rules; but that doesn't rule out some undiscovered method of suspending or countering those rules. For example, we can detect gravity from a coin being thrown and falling to the ground, but can currently overrule gravity by exerting a stronger force (magnetism), or alter its effects by messing around in vaccuum chambers and suchlike.
It could well be that there are methods of bypassing the rules around the speed of light and suchlike that we're simply unaware of. It is well and good to say that something is impossible with our current understanding of affairs; but it should always be acknowledged that that understanding is really quite incomplete.
There is no getting around the fact that the speed of light is the absolute speed limit of the universe. It doesn't matter how technologically advanced you are, Maxwell's equations don't care, special relativity doesn't care, general relativity doesn't care.
All of these have been found to be accurate in every test, even around the most extreme phenomena in the whole universe, black holes.
But if the speed of light can be manipulated, then so can the speed limit.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
