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squidhills wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 chromedog wrote:


Superhero comics only have one really important rule: NO-ONE stays dead.
There is a second rule: In the event of a breach of rule 1, ret-con the entire thing and "make it never happened". Both Marvel and DC have used this contrivance multiple times (double digits) in the last 40 years - each.

They'll be back faster than I can snap my fingers - just like they were never gone.

Except for Ben Parker. Ben Parker stays dead.

Yeah, but I remember back 20 years ago when that statement used to go "...but Bucky, Gwen Stacy, and Ben Parker always stay dead". Now we're just down to one out of the three.

Used to include jason todd too. Then.. You know... Under the red hood.

Watched it again last night. Still love it!

 Lance845 wrote:


And batmans parents. And kyle rayners girlfriend in the fridge.

She did come back as a zombie refrigerator during Blackest Night.

 Lance845 wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Necros wrote:
I’m a bit behind in my marvel filmage, just saw Thor Ragnarok last night.. but I heard all about IW and who dies because people at work don't know what spoilers are. I haven’t seen Spiderman homecoming yet, but plan to soon. But, after watching Thor I started surfing around IMDB and looked up the new Spiderman kid, and it says they’re working on a sequel to homecoming.. Didn’t he die in Infinity War? How are they gonna explain that? Or is it some kind of a prequel sequel?

It's a movie based on a marvel comic.

Superhero comics only have one really important rule: NO-ONE stays dead.
There is a second rule: In the event of a breach of rule 1, ret-con the entire thing and "make it never happened". Both Marvel and DC have used this contrivance multiple times (double digits) in the last 40 years - each.

They'll be back faster than I can snap my fingers - just like they were never gone.

Except for Ben Parker. Ben Parker stays dead.

And batmans parents. And kyle rayners girlfriend in the fridge.

Although we got to meet an alternate universe version of Thomas Wayne, who became Batman after Bruce and Martha were gunned down. He later met the Earth-Prime main universe/continuity Batman. So in a way, that character was revived.



Jor-El is also alive now, and that's not an alternate universe thing.



There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

 gorgon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 chromedog wrote:

 Necros wrote:
I’m a bit behind in my marvel filmage, just saw Thor Ragnarok last night.. but I heard all about IW and who dies because people at work don't know what spoilers are. I haven’t seen Spiderman homecoming yet, but plan to soon. But, after watching Thor I started surfing around IMDB and looked up the new Spiderman kid, and it says they’re working on a sequel to homecoming.. Didn’t he die in Infinity War? How are they gonna explain that? Or is it some kind of a prequel sequel?

It's a movie based on a marvel comic.

Superhero comics only have one really important rule: NO-ONE stays dead.
There is a second rule: In the event of a breach of rule 1, ret-con the entire thing and "make it never happened". Both Marvel and DC have used this contrivance multiple times (double digits) in the last 40 years - each.

They'll be back faster than I can snap my fingers - just like they were never gone.

Except for Ben Parker. Ben Parker stays dead.

And batmans parents. And kyle rayners girlfriend in the fridge.

Although we got to meet an alternate universe version of Thomas Wayne, who became Batman after Bruce and Martha were gunned down. He later met the Earth-Prime main universe/continuity Batman. So in a way, that character was revived.

Spoiler:

Jor-El is also alive now, and that's not an alternate universe thing.

Spoiler:

There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

Martha Wayne also came back as The Joker in Flashpoint, where Thomas Wayne Batman originated, Pre-Rebirth anyway.

I'm sure one day we'll find out that Ben Parker was alive all this time, unemployed in Greenland or something.

I don't think 'our' (616?) Gwen has ever come back, has she?

And as far as Avengers 4 goes, most likely most everyone who died in 3 comes back, and a lot of those who didn't aren't making it out of 4 alive.

Or maybe no longer 'active'.

gorgon wrote:

There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

Yep, but the difference with live-action movies/TV is that the actors can't "go on forever". So, unless you recast a role (Dumbledore), you're left with rebooting the character (the various Batman movies) or having someone else take up the mask (someone other than Stark in the Iron Man armor).

Edit: fixed quote credit

Character deaths that define other characters early on should stay dead. Ben Parker's death defines why Peter uses his powers for good, rather than selfish gain.
To bring back Ben would diminish Peter's motivations.

An occasional "what if" storyline is fine, so long as it doesn't affect the "proper" storyline.

-

 Mysterio wrote:
I don't think 'our' (616?) Gwen has ever come back, has she?

She's been cloned a few times, but generally speaking, no.

Granted, the 616 universe doesn't exist anymore. I forget what they call it post Secret Wars.

 Mysterio wrote:
I don't think 'our' (616?) Gwen has ever come back, has she?

And as far as Avengers 4 goes, most likely most everyone who died in 3 comes back, and a lot of those who didn't aren't making it out of 4 alive.

Or maybe no longer 'active'.

Actually, I thought it really lessened the stakes at the end when so many of the heroes that turned to ash were the ones that will obviously carrying the Marvel flag going forward. So of course those aren't going to stick.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

Yep, but the difference with live-action movies/TV is that the actors can't "go on forever". So, unless you recast a role (Dumbledore), you're left with rebooting the character (the various Batman movies) or having someone else take up the mask (someone other than Stark in the Iron Man armor).

That was my quote. But yes, you're right. Which makes the next phase for Marvel really interesting, as people have been saying for a while. Clearly they've done a good job developing new popular heroes like BP. Still, their BO could be affected some when the characters that people are most attached to move on. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Character deaths that define other characters early on should stay dead. Ben Parker's death defines why Peter uses his powers for good, rather than selfish gain.
To bring back Ben would diminish Peter's motivations.

Diminish or change? Or maybe not change at all? Does Peter *still* need his uncle to be dead in order to go out and help people instead of using his abilities to to get cash? There are potentially great stories to be told there, like with the Earth-2 Thomas Wayne Batman.

I read some crazy ideas about Avengers 4 where with all the anticipated time jumping that there might be some present avengers and some past avengers, and some of each will die. Sounds really trippy and I have no idea how accurate any of that might be, but it certainly would enable Marvel to kill off some people yet still have them around. The thing is some of these actors are aging, and not sure how you can explain all that. And there is a whole host of other issues that would cause too. But I do think it would be over the top crazy cool.

 KTG17 wrote:
I read some crazy ideas about Avengers 4 where with all the anticipated time jumping that there might be some present avengers and some past avengers, and some of each will die. Sounds really trippy and I have no idea how accurate any of that might be, but it certainly would enable Marvel to kill off some people yet still have them around. The thing is some of these actors are aging, and not sure how you can explain all that. And there is a whole host of other issues that would cause too. But I do think it would be over the top crazy cool.

Yeah, given some of the leaked production photos, I anticipate Stark, Antman, & Cap at least to be time traveling to the events of the first Avenger film. Potentially enlisting the help of Loki from that time (wouldn't that be a twist).
When all is said and done, I'd expect Stark and Cap to be retired in some way, whether dead or just out of the action permanently

-

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

gorgon wrote:

There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

Yep, but the difference with live-action movies/TV is that the actors can't "go on forever". So, unless you recast a role (Dumbledore), you're left with rebooting the character (the various Batman movies) or having someone else take up the mask (someone other than Stark in the Iron Man armor).

Edit: fixed quote credit

I really hope they don’t go down the route of recasting or rebooting. I’d love it if the MCU continues for another 10 years or more with the same continuity. Marvel has more than enough characters for them to be able to “retire” a character after a few years and keep the MCU fresh by introducing new ones.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

gorgon wrote:

There's a good reason why superhero comic characters don't stay dead. Those comics go on forever, so why would you permanently off a good character and eliminate those storylines that could sell books?

Yep, but the difference with live-action movies/TV is that the actors can't "go on forever". So, unless you recast a role (Dumbledore), you're left with rebooting the character (the various Batman movies) or having someone else take up the mask (someone other than Stark in the Iron Man armor).

Edit: fixed quote credit

I really hope they don’t go down the route of recasting or rebooting. I’d love it if the MCU continues for another 10 years or more with the same continuity. Marvel has more than enough characters for them to be able to “retire” a character after a few years and keep the MCU fresh by introducing new ones.

An ageing Stark and Pepper (and faimily!?) could be quite fun to see now and again, same with hawkeye

Yes, and someone else can certainly be "Iron Man" and "Captain America" too.

I suspect we'll see Bucky-Cap or Falcon-Cap at least once. Probably not in a solo film.

Overall, we'll probably get a new wave of movies built around Spidey, BP, Captain Marvel, and the Eternals. Guardians probably would have been involved too but for Gunn's troubles. Then when those have run their courses and there's some distance from the original MCU cast..reboot time.

 Mysterio wrote:
Yes, and someone else can certainly be "Iron Man" and "Captain America" too.

As long as they do it in a similar vein to Falcon or Bucky taking up Cap's mantle when he falls, or when Rhodey dons the Iron Man suit when Tony develops a heavy drinking problem. After they've already made a name for themselves, defined themselves as characters, and took over for their friend who fell (death/age acceleration) and not the crap like Iron Man handing over his suit to a 13 year old kid just because she came out of nowhere, made no name for herself and just rebuilt one of his old suits. One shows how you do it correctly, and one is insulting. Cap's writers did it right both times. Iron Man's writers did it successfully once with Rhodey; this new girl (I refuse to even learn her name) was done poorly, as she was given no opportunity to even begin to build a name for herself before getting handed the mantle of one of Marvel's currently most popular characters. It's the same thing as Cho-Hulk and Khan-Marvel. "This is awesome, so I'm gonna replace X person from before me". The characters clearly written by 8 year olds are not appealing; the characters with flaws and hardships are the ones audiences usually care about. No conflict=apathy.

So Falcon or Bucky takes over for Cap? Cool. Jane Foster takes over for Thor? Cool. Rhodey takes over for Stark? Cool. No-name teen girl who rebuilds a suit takes over for Stark? Not cool.

I don't mind new characters. I VERY much mind old, beloved characters being replaced by people who haven't proven themselves in the slightest and are doing it "cuz it's awesome!"

 gorgon wrote:

Overall, we'll probably get a new wave of movies built around Spidey, BP, Captain Marvel, and the Eternals. Guardians probably would have been involved too but for Gunn's troubles.

I heard Guardians 3 is on hold for now.

 gorgon wrote:
I suspect we'll see Bucky-Cap or Falcon-Cap at least once. Probably not in a solo film.

Overall, we'll probably get a new wave of movies built around Spidey, BP, Captain Marvel, and the Eternals. Guardians probably would have been involved too but for Gunn's troubles. Then when those have run their courses and there's some distance from the original MCU cast..reboot time.

And that's at least 10 more years away, now that the MCU can use the Fantastic Four and the X-Men stables too!

 gorgon wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
I don't think 'our' (616?) Gwen has ever come back, has she?

And as far as Avengers 4 goes, most likely most everyone who died in 3 comes back, and a lot of those who didn't aren't making it out of 4 alive.

Or maybe no longer 'active'.

Actually, I thought it really lessened the stakes at the end when so many of the heroes that turned to ash were the ones that will obviously carrying the Marvel flag going forward. So of course those aren't going to stick.

Eh. I think it's partly a flaw of the storyline, or rather the MacGuffin(s). It doesn't have any stakes... at all.
While Thanos made a big emotional show of regretting his 'sacrifice,' if he has any brain at all, he should realize he can undo it, and recreate mind, body and soul. Same with all the deaths-they aren't an issue.

It's something inherent to having a plot device of actual ultimate power that can accomplish anything- both the Infinity War and Secret War comics suffered from the same problem.

It's a great tool for squelching any characters that didn't earn, or replacing any actors/actresses whose contracts are up or want out, but nothing more than that. Narratively, potentially every aspect that had weight for the last several films (like Asgard) can be reset to whatever point the writers/Disney board deem 'most effective.' Whether they make a good call on that is up in the air, though they've done fairly well for... however many movies this is.

 Mysterio wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I suspect we'll see Bucky-Cap or Falcon-Cap at least once. Probably not in a solo film.

Overall, we'll probably get a new wave of movies built around Spidey, BP, Captain Marvel, and the Eternals. Guardians probably would have been involved too but for Gunn's troubles. Then when those have run their courses and there's some distance from the original MCU cast..reboot time.

And that's at least 10 more years away, now that the MCU can use the Fantastic Four and the X-Men stables too!

Although Actors' contracts being up can also influence this. Chris Evans and RDJ are likely on the way out and continuing their characters should mean passing the mantle.

-

Right?

I was referring to when the latest 'batch' might then be up - Boseman, Holland, Stan, etc.

When you salt in new FF and X-men casts?

They've easily got another 10 years before they even need to think about a 're-boot'.

And I can see Cap and Iron Man potentially surviving, but at the same time 'retiring' and retreating to the background, to show up every now and then in stringers and what not.

Well, at least one of them...

Cap has an older counterpart in the comics; when Red Skull used the tesseract to age him. No reason he couldn’t stay on in a Nick Fury style role. Iron Man could too, honestly, building tech for the Avengers. It’s not like him retiring would ever get the bad guys to leave him alone to live a normal life afterwards.

I think the reason they'll kill off Cap is that Chris Evans reportedly doesnt want to act anymore.

I think that they think we 'need' (or want?) some big lasting death, to lend the appropriate gravitas to the whole thing.

Especially as many of the 'deaths' in Infinity War aren't sticking.

Combine that with some actors wanting to be done now (RDJ? Evans?), and I think we'll get at least one Han Solo style "Stabbed in the heart, thrown into a pit that leads to the center of the planet and then that same planet gets blown up" style of True Death here.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think the reason they'll kill off Cap is that Chris Evans reportedly doesnt want to act anymore.

I think using the Gems to put him on the Bridge at the end of Season 1 of Agent Carter would be the happy ending he's earned

Sorry, I meant no “in story” reason. Yeah, if Evans simply wants to direct, and doesn’t want to act anymore, then I’m sure the writing is on the wall for Steve to die and Bucky or Sam take his place. If we get some gakky “American Lad” style garbage though, I’m rage-quitting the theater! Lol

I'd rather not make it all about trading lives. I can see it happening, but its very rare for a stakes raiser kill or even a big finale death to satisfy long term. It's the kind of stuff that works in the moment but begs for retcons. I'd much rather characters end up in a place where they can be available for cameos and the like, but don't need to be the drive of the story going forward.

Turnip Jedi wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think the reason they'll kill off Cap is that Chris Evans reportedly doesnt want to act anymore.

I think using the Gems to put him on the Bridge at the end of Season 1 of Agent Carter would be the happy ending he's earned

That would be awesome!

LunarSol wrote:I'd rather not make it all about trading lives. I can see it happening, but its very rare for a stakes raiser kill or even a big finale death to satisfy long term. It's the kind of stuff that works in the moment but begs for retcons. I'd much rather characters end up in a place where they can be available for cameos and the like, but don't need to be the drive of the story going forward.

Agreed - and even if they never make that cameo, it would be nice for them to get a somewhat happy ending in...the end.

And given the power of the Infinity Gauntlet, that really should be possible!