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chimera0205 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.

What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.

As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts

They don't to any significant way, they can only navigate in terms of shallow jumps so no my friend you are the one that's wrong.

Kroot would never become the Tau Empire's 'Navigators' because they would see that as stagnation. The entire reason the have Merc forces is to combat the Tau caste system's ideas for how they should fit into the Empire, so they can secretly go out and gain genetic diversity.

Yeah, I don't think a warrior race who constantly seeks new genetic material would be content serving as mere navigators. That poor kroot would get so bored and so hungry.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, I don't think a warrior race who constantly seeks new genetic material would be content serving as mere navigators. That poor kroot would get so bored and so hungry.

they could be rewarded for thier services as navigators with meat from the strongest enemies on the battlefield after a victory. maybe that could work?

So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?

The kroot navigators would be able to keep an eye on the tau's movement and possibly gather useful data to relay to the kroot.

Plus they could generate horrible stenches during navigation, claiming it was a necessary part of navigating, just to troll the tau.

(See "letters from pecht").

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?

No their valued workers fullfilling thier duty for the greator good and recieving the rewards they desire in return. no diffrent from any other employee in any other society just recieving there preferred form of payment instead of standard currency

I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.

Not exactly. The Tau are omnivores, but they have only eaten meat relatively recently. Which actually makes them extremely odd, since Herbivores generally lack the ability to support brains sophisticated enough to be sentient. Simply not enough protein or energy dense calories to support the energy demands of a large brain.

For all we know the tau home world offers a variety of plants extremely rich in protein. There are plants on earth that are quite effective sources of proteins.

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?

No their valued workers fullfilling thier duty for the greator good and recieving the rewards they desire in return. no diffrent from any other employee in any other society just recieving there preferred form of payment instead of standard currency

Except they're a warrior people who prefer to eat the flesh of warriors, as their religious beliefs revolve around preserving the warrior spirit of the vanquished. They aren't animals who'll just eat anything you give them.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.

How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.

chimera0205 wrote:
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts

You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...

chimera0205 wrote:
not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking

Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.

A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).

A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!

You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?

And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.

Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.

Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop

^
Yeah, these are good points.
The likelihood of Tau getting a navigator to actually cooperate with them is really slim, Kroot will not just roll over for the greater good, the Tau will not let them in control their fleets, and we don't even know how good the Kroot's 6th sense is.

 Irbis wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!

You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?

And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.

Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.

Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop

Ah, edits
Isn't a servoskull more of a cyborg than an actual AI? There's still a bit of meat in there, isn't there?
Not that that's inferior to AI or anything; different method, same result. The Ad mech aren't slouches and can do some pretty impressive stuff with bio-engineering and cybernetics.

Yeah, the imperials do use grav-chute technology, and the aforementioned servoskull as a grav-engine. And the primaris vehicles use grav-tech as well, and they are making those now. So much for no imperial grav-vehicles.

 Irbis wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.

How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.

chimera0205 wrote:
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts

You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...

chimera0205 wrote:
not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking

Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.

A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).

A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!

You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?

And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.

Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.

Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop

Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.

Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.

Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.

chimera0205 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.

How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.

chimera0205 wrote:
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts

You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...

chimera0205 wrote:
not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking

Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.

A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).

A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!

You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?

And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.

Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.

Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop

Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.

Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.

Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.

Have you read any of the fluff ever?

Many Imperial citizens live the way they do because thats what works for the Imperium - its like 1984, they couild give everyone a better life - they choose not to. Some planets have better tech, some much better - its anotehr bizare thing about the Imperium that they use grav tech for civilians but less so for military - but thats because thats how the Imperium works. Just becuase soemthing is better does not mean they will use or not unitl its undergone a thousand years of testing, religious scruitny and comparison - and then the results may be ignored or forgotten.

Plus as someone mentioned their are less Tau in their whole race than a few paltry hive worlds.

Pulse rifle/lasgun - different weapons.

Servo skulls are there presciely becuase of the AI revolution - something likely to happen to the Tau sooner rather than later.

Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.

I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle. They are different types of weapons that have different purposes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.

I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.

Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.

I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.

Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.

It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them.
No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work.

In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.

I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.

Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.

It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them.
No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work.

In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.

But as you said thats not a problem for the tau so what does ot matter?

 Mr Morden wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.

How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.

chimera0205 wrote:
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts

You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...

chimera0205 wrote:
not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking

Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.

A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).

A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!

You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?

And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.

Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.

Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop

Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.

Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.

Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.

Have you read any of the fluff ever?

Many Imperial citizens live the way they do because thats what works for the Imperium - its like 1984, they couild give everyone a better life - they choose not to. Some planets have better tech, some much better - its anotehr bizare thing about the Imperium that they use grav tech for civilians but less so for military - but thats because thats how the Imperium works. Just becuase soemthing is better does not mean they will use or not unitl its undergone a thousand years of testing, religious scruitny and comparison - and then the results may be ignored or forgotten.

Plus as someone mentioned their are less Tau in their whole race than a few paltry hive worlds.

Pulse rifle/lasgun - different weapons.

Servo skulls are there presciely becuase of the AI revolution - something likely to happen to the Tau sooner rather than later.

First of all we still have no idea why the men of iron rebbelled. It could be because of influence from the void dragon, it could be that they treated them like slaves causing them to turn to choas out of desperation, it could even be that they just fethed up there programming. We have no idea why and it shouldnt be assumed that the same thing will happen to the tau.

Maybe if the imperium actually tried to uplift and better the lives of its citizens theyd all stop turning to choas.

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.

I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.

Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.

It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them.
No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work.

In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.

But as you said thats not a problem for the tau so what does ot matter?

They are still drawbacks. Just because it isn't that much of a concern for Tau doesn't mean there's a downside to it. Especially when you are comparing it to another type of weapon, and go on about how great pulse rifles are.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM

I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM

The Tau seem to be functionally immune to chaos corruption, so it's unlikely to end exactly the same way it did for the Imperium, though. I could see some scientist trying to create technology using the warp and end up with possessed stuff, but an a scale large enough to topple their empire? I don't know... Maybe if they'd started running everything through a galaxy-spanning AI network then it would certainly suck if daemons got inside of that.

I was going by older background that said grav vehicles were seriously limited in the imperium, being mostly ancient relics carefully maintained. Maybe they retconned that but early on they were seriously limited in availability.

As to tau drone vs servo skull, let's see... Two pulse carbines vs a las pistol....

Also remember that in Battlefleet Gothic, the Tau have client races far more psychic than Kroot, like the Nicassar.

I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.

neither was the imperium, the emperor was the figurehead but the day to day running of the imperium is done by planetary governors etc. also, arent the Tau effectively run by the chief ethereal, the Aun'O, used to be Aun'Va, so yeah, pretty sure its the same general thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Tau seem to be functionally immune to chaos corruption, so it's unlikely to end exactly the same way it did for the Imperium, though. I could see some scientist trying to create technology using the warp and end up with possessed stuff, but an a scale large enough to topple their empire? I don't know... Maybe if they'd started running everything through a galaxy-spanning AI network then it would certainly suck if daemons got inside of that.

The Tau are in no way immune to warp corruption and we dont know to what extent they are resistant to the temptations of Chaos (chaos corruption), the greater goods ideology seems to indicate it would be very difficult to corrupt one, but not impossible, also you would only need to find the right circumstances to cripple the Tau, exactly like the Chaos gods did to the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM

I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.

Neither are the Imperium...they are ruled by several idiots
Nah seriously though, the High Lords are doing an ok job, given the circumstances. Its not easy ruling an empire, especially one as huge as the IoM

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.

The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.

The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.

Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.

Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM

I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.

Hilarious - the chief Etherial is/was a dick -

Now of course he is a symbolic hologram on a throne as the Empire could not cope with his loss - oh so totally different from the Emperor on the Golden Throne.....