Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Necros wrote:
EVs seem to all have long warranties. Teslas are 100k miles or maybe it was 120k.. I looked at others and they're also real high. Assuming that's around when the battery life starts to go down a bit. I wouldn't have my car that long, I usually get a new car every 4-5 years, I think the most I ever had was around 70k miles.

Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?

Just take one for a test drive and forget all this other stuff. You will either like it or you wont. If you like it and take it home, you will soon fall in love with it, you will laugh every time you pass a gas station, every time you dust some ICE car with it. Ive take quite a few scalps in my car already from ICE drivers who didnt know the 3 is a performer.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.

They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.

Do you have any reasoning behind what you're saying?

Do you believe hydrogen fuel is a better solution, perhaps running a fuel cell to produce electricity to run an electric motor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:


Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.

It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.

What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?

Hydrogen has the advantages of being easy to produce, and burning "clean" either as an internal combustion fuel, or in a "fuel cell" to produce electricity directly. The exhaust in either case is water. The disadvantage is the difficulty of storing and transporting it, compared to petrol or electricity.

There isn't any existing infrastructure for refuelling hydrogen cars.

When you say hydrogen, I just think hindenburg

The Hindenburg was exploded by the flammable dope on its external skin.

Despite the terrible conflagration, almost 2/3rds of the passengers and crew survived. This was because hydrogen goes upwards so quickly it barely has time to cause a fire.

It could be different if you've got a car with a liquid hydrogen fuel tank which got a puncture, because the hydrogen will start to boil off and jet out through the hole.

Of course, it's also bad news if you get a puncture in the fuel tank of a conventional car, and the fuel just pours onto the ground.

Since we're all so enamored at the Wonders of Tesla, it may be a bit eye opening to read the following about the financial situation of the company:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycs1bzznlzapqly/TSLA%20writeup%20VIC%203%2017.pdf?dl=0

Maybe EVs are the way of the future. If Tesla continues to go forward with more than 75% of their operating cash coming from customer deposits, the company itself may not be long lived.

 CptJake wrote:
Since we're all so enamored at the Wonders of Tesla, it may be a bit eye opening to read the following about the financial situation of the company:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycs1bzznlzapqly/TSLA%20writeup%20VIC%203%2017.pdf?dl=0

Maybe EVs are the way of the future. If Tesla continues to go forward with more than 75% of their operating cash coming from customer deposits, the company itself may not be long lived.

Yeah, Im mot sure who wrote this, Tesla sales were low in Q4 of last year and so far in Q1 of this year because they were putting them in boats and shipping them to China and Europe. Right now Tesla has problems, but most of them are good. They can not make cars fast enough to deliver them, there are still wait lists for the cars. Those cars they shipped to Europe and Asia were mostly preorders to so the second they hit the ground they are sold. We will se what the final numbers of Q1 are I guess, I know they have had trouble clearing customs and other delivery issues with this being their first major shipment abroad....I dont really see that being an issue. They are chewing through money building new facilities, so it may take them awhile to turn a profit....but we will see.

There are a lot of people shorting Tesla hoping that they fail and rake in some money. There are also the lobbies and political might of the BIG THREE, trying to take them down like they did Tucker and Street Cars, and essentially any other competition . Its too bad, they are GREAT cars, so we will see what happens. I've already put my money down (purchased and took delivery, not like a reservation) on the car and bought stock when it was cheap......its been a crazy ride watching it though. Tesla stock is bipolar, it feels like its up when it should be down, and down when it should be up. If im wrong im wrong, if I'm right I bought apple stock when it was cheap.....whatever.

One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.

So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.

https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html

Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.

Sigh. Snark gets so tiresome after a while.

I was responding to a post about tesla, bit heads. Yes some major car makers are going electric, and they aren't getting locked out like tesla did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Electric cars are likely the wave of the future if technological society has a future. One improvement to them might be a modular battery system that allowed rapid and easy battery changes. So a driver on a long trip could just pull into a service station, swap out his batteries and be back on the road in minutes. The batteries would be charged at the station which would automatically check them for faults and failures then be made available to the next driver who needs to keep going.

Old batteries would be recycled, of course, and all electric cars should be made of as much recycled material as possible and be designed from the start for maximum recyclability.

I wasn't responding directly to you.

I was refuting the implication that because Tesla isn't financially successful, therefore EVs are rubbish.

I hate walls of text.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Teslas problems with US states is more to do with dealership monopolies than the powertrain, as I understand it. Tesla is trying to go for a dealership light option (by ditching them entirely), but a lot of states don't allow that.

Teslas reports tend to look pretty bad because they are making huge re-investment in future lines. Most of the profit from the S went into making the X, most of the profit from the 3 went into making the Y, then there's the investment in the truck and the semi and so on.

Once they've caught up, assuming no major disasters, they'll be pretty financially comfortable. The biggest problem they have at the moment is getting production numbers up to match the customer demand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

Electric cars are likely the wave of the future if technological society has a future. One improvement to them might be a modular battery system that allowed rapid and easy battery changes. So a driver on a long trip could just pull into a service station, swap out his batteries and be back on the road in minutes. The batteries would be charged at the station which would automatically check them for faults and failures then be made available to the next driver who needs to keep going.

I think that route is a dead end, because the infrastructure for swapping batteries is going to be difficult, it'll restrict the layout of the batteries, and customers won't be happy using random batteries.

Fast charging is improving rapidly too. I think Tesla now claim to be able to add about 87 miles of range in about 5 minutes.

The road trip approach may need to change slightly to match the technology - it won't be possible to drive 2000 miles with 5 minute stops every 500 miles for fuel. But realistically, a 300 mile range Tesla means you're only stopping for 20ish minutes every 4 hours @ 70mph. You should probably be taking a break every 2-4 hours anyway, and if the car is full of people you'll be stopping to pee more often anyway. For the travelling salesmen it means they can sit at a road stop and do admin work whilst having a snack/coffee.
On the flip side it means fuel costs much less, there's more fuel for actual fun uses, and you can charge more or less anywhere with electricity - malls, restaurants, cinemas, and so on.

The only people EV's will suck for is dual driver trucks, as they can't just hotswap out since the bottleneck will be charging the truck. Or people towing heavy stuff long distance as the range will drop drastically.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.

So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.

https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html

And Texas lawmakers have just proposed a law that will prohibit Tesla from directly servicing Tesla vehicles.

Herzlos wrote:


The road trip approach may need to change slightly to match the technology - it won't be possible to drive 2000 miles with 5 minute stops every 500 miles for fuel. But realistically, a 300 mile range Tesla means you're only stopping for 20ish minutes every 4 hours @ 70mph. You should probably be taking a break every 2-4 hours anyway, and if the car is full of people you'll be stopping to pee more often anyway. For the travelling salesmen it means they can sit at a road stop and do admin work whilst having a snack/coffee.

The big thing people forget to mention is that those trips are rare for the vast majority of people, and over all I would guess people will spend much less time charging that getting petrol. Yes, once or twice a year some people will have to do multi stop trips, but how much of that is offset by never having to visit a petrol station the rest of the year?

We go from visiting a petrol station once a week or so which, if you are not on a long trip, often means you going out of the way to some extent, and between fuelling and paying it is probably 15 mins every week where you have to be involved, to spending 45 mins charging occasionally, in which you can go to the loo, have some food, etc. The technology exists so that you don't need to even pay, the car will be able to do it for you, it just needs to be implemented.

The rest of the year your car will be fully fuelled on your drive every morning, and when infrastructure improves (which it is doing fast) you will be able to do the same when you park at the shops or for work.

How far did Sweden get with the roll-out of its in-road charging strips that started last year? That seems a straightforward solution to limited range of electric vehicles.

I've no idea of it's true viability or scalability, but I like its Scalextric vibe.

My only two issues with them:

1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.

2. The way we make electricity isn't exactly good for the environment either.

Electricity can be pretty clean, and even coal/oil is a much more efficient source from a single huge power station than gas is in thousands of tiny combustion engines. You've also got much better options for carbon capture from a station than a tailpipe.

Noise can be an issue; I thought most had external speakers to make them a bit more obvious but I've never actually looked into it.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
My only two issues with them:

1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.

... ...

There is something in that. OTOH it's astonishing how many pedestrians who walk around with headphones in, looking at their phones, and wouldn't notice a clown car with a foghorn on it.

Whatever. It would be simple to equip EVs with a circuit to beam an alert sound externally when travelling at speeds under 30mph.

What if Tesla offered franchises where a biz owner could buy one, kinda like buying a mcdonalds .. and they sell the cars (for the same price as online, no haggling) and do the service and get trained by the tesla pros from Mars .. Would that be a way around the dealership laws for those states that have them?

Also, can another EV like a Chevy Bolt use a Tesla Supercharger station? Under the impression that only teslas can use them, which seems kinda bad for EVs in general, would be best if any EV can use any charging station.

I think over time the charging times will get faster and faster. The new Tesla superchargers will supposedly do a full battery recharge in like 15 minutes. A few more years and I bet they'll have version 4.0 that will be even faster. I'm not worried about charing times for the 1 or 2 road trips I do a year, the time it takes to recharge will be as long as it'll take me to go tinkle and get something to eat. The farthest distance I usually drive is my sister's place in NY, a little over 100 miles.. Should be able to make it there and back on a full charge no problem, and I could always plug in at her place while I'm there for some extra juice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
My only two issues with them:

1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.

... ...

There is something in that. OTOH it's astonishing how many pedestrians who walk around with headphones in, looking at their phones, and wouldn't notice a clown car with a foghorn on it.

Whatever. It would be simple to equip EVs with a circuit to beam an alert sound externally when travelling at speeds under 30mph.

I would love for that sound to be Zoidberg's Wooop wooop woop.

 Necros wrote:
Ah, I see. But then, wouldn't the same be true for newer gas cars that have similar technologies? Like I was looking into the new Honda passport, that has honda's sensing tech standard. Seems like lots of other companies are starting to make that stuff standard too

The issue is Tesla is a company with scarce resouces stretched too thin so they're gak at having a meaningful logistics system. Parts will take months to get to you and until they arrive you're toast (that's also part of the reason why insurance quotes are so high, they need to account for very long loaner periods).

Service professionals are also substantially below what's needed to sustain the current fleet. For example Tesla has a grand total of 4 service technicians for whole Spain. 3 of them in Madrid and the other one drives around trying to do their best.

My neighbour has a model S that's been 3 months waiting for parts, he told me half Tesla owners are absolutely pissed at Tesla and their service and there's even talk about a group action against Tesla. Problem is, they started recently delivery of the cheaper model 3 (with worse build quality) but the servive headcount is still the same.

By all means consider any other electric car if your driving routine allows for it (I test drove a Nissan Leaf and a Kia eNiro and they were perfectly good machines, even though I settled for an ICE car) just not a Tesla.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:

Also, can another EV like a Chevy Bolt use a Tesla Supercharger station? Under the impression that only teslas can use them, which seems kinda bad for EVs in general, would be best if any EV can use any charging station.

Tesla uses a proprietary plug. At least in Europe they're forced by law to have the standard plug next to the Tesla-exclusive one.

Kind of like having an iPhone.

A standard plug is a no-brainer. Imagine if you could only fill petrol at a station run by your car's manufacturer.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.

So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.

https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html

And Texas lawmakers have just proposed a law that will prohibit Tesla from directly servicing Tesla vehicles.

So much for some peoples professed belief in "duh free markit!"

Would be cool if they would allow it with some kind of adapter plug, just like how you need adapters for a tesla to use some other kinds of chargers. I get the whole idea of them wanting it to be like an exclusive perk, but I think it would be better for EVs in general and help more folks consider purchasing one over an ICE if they know there are more places to charge up.

They could still make it a benefit for Tesla owners, maybe have the price be cheaper.. or more likely keep the price the same for tesla owners, but charge others more, and then list it as "discounted supercharging" as a perk for new buyers.. because marketing.

 Necros wrote:
Would be cool if they would allow it with some kind of adapter plug, just like how you need adapters for a tesla to use some other kinds of chargers. I get the whole idea of them wanting it to be like an exclusive perk, but I think it would be better for EVs in general and help more folks consider purchasing one over an ICE if they know there are more places to charge up.

They could still make it a benefit for Tesla owners, maybe have the price be cheaper.. or more likely keep the price the same for tesla owners, but charge others more, and then list it as "discounted supercharging" as a perk for new buyers.. because marketing.

There is actually a realy good article about this topic. https://www.engadget.com/2018/11/16/tesla-superchargers-europe-ccs-cable/

The problem right now is that none of the other companies appear to want to finance charging stations, they appear to want to stay out of that business and let gas stations handle it. At least in the US there could be regulatory issues with charging your customers one price for a product and other customers another, we have some monopoly laws that could kick in at that point. Tesla for their part has open sourced their patents for anyone to use and says they are happy to let others use their stations as long as they are willing to help finance the infrastructure and costs......nobody has taken then up on that deal. Availability is an issue, currently in busy areas you may have to wait for a Supercharger, if all of the sudden anyone can charge at them this would be a huge problem unless the network expands rapidly which Tesla is not in a financial position to build a network for everyone. There would be nothing worse than pulling into a full bank of chargers knowing that you may have to wait a half hour......before you even start charging. If Tesla had the cash it would be a really smart move to build this network as it would be a great revenue stream......but Tesla has already bitten off more than they can chew financially. If they were to try to take on another colossal project before showing consistent profit, their investors would be done.

I would never buy an EV that does not have an extensive and affordable charging network.

My neighbour has a model S that's been 3 months waiting for parts, he told me half Tesla owners are absolutely pissed at Tesla and their service and there's even talk about a group action against Tesla. Problem is, they started recently delivery of the cheaper model 3 (with worse build quality) but the servive headcount is still the same.

Tesla does have supply chain issues because of massive growth and their need to fund that growth to beat the competition to market. As far as Tesla owners being pissed off, its really a minority, because Tesla has addressed this issue in a way that satisfies most of their customers. They give you a loaner car until they can finish work on yours. Its not the perfect solution of course, but I think its a pretty good one.

What if Tesla offered franchises where a biz owner could buy one, kinda like buying a mcdonalds .. and they sell the cars (for the same price as online, no haggling) and do the service and get trained by the tesla pros from Mars .. Would that be a way around the dealership laws for those states that have them?

I mean thats what a dealership is. Sure there are private dealerships, but they are pretty rare, most dealerships are franchises sold by the company to the franchiser. Dealerships do not want to then compete against their own company. Thats the whole issue, especially now. If you could go to a franchised dealership and test drive the car......but then just buy it online, that would kill the franchises. This is why so many companies are after Teslas ability to sell directly to customers, and also why many new EVs are coming out as their own brand, so that they can be sold directly. For instance Volvo has franchises in the US and under those agreements are not allowed to sell Volvos directly to customers, they can however start and EV brand called Polestar and sell that directly to customers Any auto company that has Franchises is not allowed to legally sell directly to customers as it breaks the franchise agreement.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.

So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.

https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html

And Texas lawmakers have just proposed a law that will prohibit Tesla from directly servicing Tesla vehicles.

So much for some peoples professed belief in "duh free markit!"

There are no direct service or sales situations in Texas for any auto dealership.

Why you ask? I think you can figure it out.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.

KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.

There is no theory in that conspiracy theory. If you look at the history of US auto manufacturing there is a long list of their competition that they shut down using political means.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.

KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I don't see then as anything but second cars.

There is no theory in that conspiracy theory. If you look at the history of US auto manufacturing there is a long list of their competition that they shut down using political means.

This is so true. The big 3 have killed competitors with economic and political clout rather than competing with them.

One was the Tucker, a car ahead of it;s time that had a lot of innovations. In fact there was even a major movie made about it decades after the fact.,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_48

Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.

So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.

https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html

And Texas lawmakers have just proposed a law that will prohibit Tesla from directly servicing Tesla vehicles.

So much for some peoples professed belief in "duh free markit!"

Such a regulation actually prevents anybody from having a monopoly on the repairs of that vehicle, which is a good thing. It's similar to various laws people are thinking about passing to say Apple can no longer disallow their customers from repairing their own phones(or taking them to a 3rd party repair business). Its actually good for small repair businesses because it lets them have a bigger market share, or indeed the only market share in this case.

Now I don't think completely banning Tesla from servicing their own vehicles is exactly fair. But having the law say "You may not claim sole rights to repair and maintenance of your products" is a good thing.

This law is most definitely a specific "Screw Tesla" jab, but its not an anti-free market law in and of itself.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station

Electric bikes are increasingly popular in Japan and the Netherlands. I'm seeing more of them in the UK too. The main thing holding them back is cost, and the unfriendliness of UK roads for cyclists.