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Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






@ Vulcan

What about the existing Hydrogen cars? How well do they contain the gas? Have any of them blown up yet?

And what about the hydrogen filling stations that are already in existence? Are they encountering any problems?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/17 22:37:35


 
   
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 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Vulcan

What about the existing Hydrogen cars? How well do they contain the gas? Have any of them blown up yet?

And what about the hydrogen filling stations that are already in existence? Are they encountering any problems?


Good questions.

I do not know the answers to any of them - although I suspect if any H2 cars or filling stations had blown up we would have heard about it.

The only point I was making was that the infrastructure will be more complex to build than it was for gas, electricity, or natural gas.... all of which already exist. There needs to be more 'filling' stations for electric cars for them to be truly viable, but the infrastructure to produce and distribute it already exists. The infrastructure to produce, distribute, and store H2 in mass-use-of-H2-powered-vehicles quantity does not exist except in a few places, needs to be built up, and won't be as simple to do as building the gasoline, electrical, and natural gas infrastructure was.

Can it be done? Sure.

WILL it be done, in the face of existing electrical infrastructure and electrical car technology? There's the real question.

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Believeland, OH

Hydrogen filling stations are incredibly expensive also. I think I read somewhere a hydrogen filling station costs a million dollars, a supercharger costs 10K. Hydrogen is as dead as the ICE engine. Yeah you will see them around for awhile but they are going the way of the dodo. I didnt really believe it either until I drove a good EV. It changes your mind pretty instantly.

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 Kilkrazy wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Andrew1975 wrote:
 filbert wrote:
Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.

Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.

I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.


I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.

That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.

For more about electricity vs hydrogen you can read here https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.


You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.

Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.

Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.


History will prove you wrong in a few years.


I don't doubt that we will eventually get to electric vehicles, assuming we transition over to nuclear power for the majority of our electrical production. But for the moment its not something anybody other than the moderately wealthy should consider. Everybody else should use hybrids and gas for the foreseeable future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hydrogen filling stations are incredibly expensive also. I think I read somewhere a hydrogen filling station costs a million dollars, a supercharger costs 10K. Hydrogen is as dead as the ICE engine. Yeah you will see them around for awhile but they are going the way of the dodo. I didnt really believe it either until I drove a good EV. It changes your mind pretty instantly.


Dial back on the kool-aid there bro

Electric vehicles for all the reasons we've listed before are woefully premature at this point. 10 years at least, and they'll only be better for the environment if we transition to clean energy production and have better ways of making batteries.

Not to mention, your "good" electric vehicles are pretty much only for wealthy people right now. They're way too expensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 01:19:47


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Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.

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Believeland, OH

Electric vehicles for all the reasons we've listed before are woefully premature at this point. 10 years at least, and they'll only be better for the environment if we transition to clean energy production and have better ways of making batteries.

Not to mention, your "good" electric vehicles are pretty much only for wealthy people right now. They're way too expensive.


Thats funny, i haven't seen any reasons that people have posted that weren't easily put to bed. They are already better for the environment than ICE or hydrogen cars...and will only get better. Ice cars have hit their evolutionary peak, they wont get cleaner or more efficient by more than a few percent here and there, and while they do that they only get more complex, expensive and difficult to maintain. Mazda (sky active X), Nissan (VC TURBO) a few other companies are coming up with ICE engines this year that will get 50MPG, but the ways that they do it increase the complexity of the engine so much......when that thing has a problem.....maintenance is going to be expensive.

As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, (and even the base three is no econobox) my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that if they cant afford a new car. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.

Are there certain circumstances where an EV wont work as well as an ICE vehicle right now, absolutely. For 90% of people living in the United States, they are the better, more economical and smart option. Oh and the EV is going to retain its value much better than a new ICE car because maintenance is relatively not an issue. You are going to see the value on ICE cars really start to depreciate in the next few years. Which will be great for people that cant afford new cars, but not for those that want to sell them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.


This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 03:52:24


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 Andrew1975 wrote:

As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.


See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.

Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.

Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.

And even when these cars do start showing up used, I highly doubt they're going to keep their value because of how the electronic and battery components degrade. They're not like hybrids that will at least continue to outperform conventional vehicles. By the time a Tesla 3 hits the used car lot its going to have really bad range and come with the added hassle of needing to install a charging station at your house(because for the people who are buying this hypothetical used Tesla, it will certainly be their first car). And in the event that electric cars do so wildly improve like their champions predict, well they're going to make a Tesla 3 look like garbage. So why buy an electric car now when it is far better to wait?

$29k is not a deal for something that will be worthless in 10 years, relies on infrastructure that only barely exists, needs a large amount of time to 'refuel', and requires you to set up a charging station at your house.

Oh, and lets not forget that electric car owners are currently not contributing to public infrastructure because it is almost entirely funded by taxes on gasoline. Electric car and hybrid owners should expect to be hit with a wave of new taxes in the future to compensate for that.

Maintenance is also not less for an electric vehicle. It just happens less often so I think you are blinded by its infrequency. But when it does happen its going to hurt big time. All those proprietary components will always need to be got from the factory and your maintenance will need to be done by the dealership themselves, which will be very expensive if you're on the road nowhere near a Tesla dealership when your battery dies or the motor gives out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 03:59:54


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Believeland, OH

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Andrew1975 wrote:

As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.


See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.

Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.

Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.

And even when these cars do start showing up used, I highly doubt they're going to keep their value because of how the electronic and battery components degrade. They're not like hybrids that will at least continue to outperform conventional vehicles. By the time a Tesla 3 hits the used car lot its going to have really bad range and come with the added hassle of needing to install a charging station at your house(because for the people who are buying this hypothetical used Tesla, it will certainly be their first car). And in the event that electric cars do so wildly improve like their champions predict, well they're going to make a Tesla 3 look like garbage. So why buy an electric car now when it is far better to wait?

$29k is not a deal for something that will be worthless in 10 years, relies on infrastructure that only barely exists, needs a large amount of time to 'refuel', and requires you to set up a charging station at your house.

Oh, and lets not forget that electric car owners are currently not contributing to public infrastructure because it is almost entirely funded by taxes on gasoline. Electric car and hybrid owners should expect to be hit with a wave of new taxes in the future to compensate for that.

Maintenance is also not less for an electric vehicle. It just happens less often so I think you are blinded by its infrequency. But when it does happen its going to hurt big time. All those proprietary components will always need to be got from the factory and your maintenance will need to be done by the dealership themselves, which will be very expensive if you're on the road nowhere near a Tesla dealership when your battery dies or the motor gives out.


Oh man are you horribly uninformed, its ok most people are when it comes to EVs.

Firstly your argument is that EVS are not affordable because no new cars are affordable is....well awful. If no new cars are affordable than you cant single that out as an issue with EVs.

I have bought many cars in my days, used and new. The issue with used cars is you never really know how the other owners treated them, Thats a much bigger issue with ICE cars than Electric cars. Its easy to tell if an electric car has been abused you just look at how much of a charge it will take. Go ahead an roll the dice on that $2000 ICE car,,,because thats what you are doing, you are buying someone elses problems. New cars have always been a better investment for me, I take care of my cars and they last for a long time, case in point my wife and I both bought new cars in 2011, never had any issues with them because I know how to maintain a car properly. Used cars, even though I know what I'm looking for, are always a crap shoot.

You're idea that electric cars degrade is false. Teslas actually resist abuse much better than ICE cars. Outside agencies have run Teslas for near a million miles and show minimal degradation to the battery, motors or performance. Try measuring the performance of an old ICE car, horsepower lose is a huge problem with ICE cars as they get older, they also lose a great deal of efficiency, the wear and tear on an ICE car is inevitable because of the inherent violence involved with how they work, combined with the many extra thousands of moving parts.

Yeah, we dont pay Gasoline tax. Gasoline tax is bs anyway. Most gasoline taxes go into the general fund and only a small percent actually go back into the infrastructure, its just an easy way to sneak in a tax to pay for whatever. Combine that with the cost we pay to defend gasoline and oil throughout the world and EV drivers are a bargain. How much of my taxes go to funding the defense of the middle east and its oil reserves? Roads should come out of the general fund anyway, its not just drivers that benefit from them, Aunt May sitting at home ordering stuff from Amazon benefits from our road infrastructure, she may not drive on it...but she benefits from it, every ones does, everyone should pay. If ypu want me to be hit with taxes for road maintenance fine, but I want a rebate for defense spending and environmental issues associated with oil.

Maintenance is less considerably less on an EV. Again they resist abuse much better and are actually hard to abuse, you have to sit on a full or empty charge to really degrade them otherwise they lose about 1% a year, which is minimal. The motors are rated for 1 million miles, not to mention that they slowly degrade, they don't break like components in an ICE motor. there goes my transmission, there goes my cylinder head gasket, there goes my water pump...without warning! You are just flat out wrong about this.

as for your idea that some technology will come in EVS that will make the 3 dinosour.....im not sure what that could be except range as the actual performance of them is already more than most people need! My car goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and has a top speed of 162 miles an hour, and even the base model 3 is up there, so im not sure what would need improving as far as performance. Range, the base model 3 gets 220 miles, mine gets 310, this is more than enough for 90 percent of the population. I dont find the charging time an issue, its different, but its not an issue. ICE cars waste time every time they fill up. I need to fill up only on long journeys and that time is constantly getting shorter and shorter. Now if there is some quantum leap.....im pretty sure it will be easy to swap out the battery. Currently batteries are $9k, but thats expected to go down significantly.

And that is the beauty of EV's especially Teslas. The software gets updates, my car has actually gotten better since I bought it, its actually gotten faster because of an update! Its gotten safer because of an update, and when Full Self Drive happens........I'll get an update! There is not one ICE or Hybrid that you can say that about. The components are designed to be plug and play. Swapping out a battery or a motor is pretty easy (Tesla actually designed the batteries to originally be hot swapped to cut down charging time, this became unnecessary as charging tech progressed) compared to lets say replacing an ICE motor or transmission or fuel injection system. Not only that most of it is housed and doesn't get filthy and caked up with crap, oil and various fluids covering in grime and road dirt, or some corrosive making maintenance a nightmare. You ever have to use a ocy torch to remove a bolt or cut an exhaust or motor mount...not gonna happen in the Tesla. You remove the panels and all the components are CLEAN like factory CLEAN with the exception of you suspension which needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. No sir maintenance is comparatively a non issue!

Setting up a charging station at home is easy, I did it myself, there are plenty of tutorials online, at worst you need to call an electrician, it should run you $300. Now if you live in an apartment or rent your home, that could be an issue.

I get it, its a brave new world and most people don't know anything about it, but I've done my research. I had many of the same thoughts when it came time to buy a new car (Deer jumped in front of me while I was doing 75 on the freeway at about 5 in the morning) I was set on trading my Mazda in for a new Mazda 3 with the 50 MPG sky active X engine in October when they came out...but the Deer had other plans. My brother owns his own engineering company and does some work for Tesla, and suggested it to me, I fought him tooth and nail on it, but he gave me the data and info. Again I'm a car guy, I've rebuilt and bored out the engine on a 69 Hugger Orange GTO. I didn't make this decision lightly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 06:38:46


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I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.

Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?

Something else I've not seen brought up is the use of rare earth metals, which are getting more expensive and which China is doing a pretty good job of about cornering the market on. US mines are about stopped due to environmental issues driving up costs.




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Well electric Cars would be great, but the batteires to run them and their recycling is a big problem.

that said, at this point this may or may not be more problematic then all the issues coming with further use of Oil

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The 'They're not affordable because no new car is affordable' argument is just sublime

 CptJake wrote:
I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.

Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?


If it makes it more affordable to the end buyer then that's all that's relevant in the 'is it more affordable to the user than a petrol car' argument, which was the one they were having.

I do wonder how the costs stack up in countries where petrol isn't as cheap as it is in the US. I imagine the savings for people who drive a lot in Norway or Iceland or Israel must pile up fast.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 09:53:55


 
   
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 Grey Templar wrote:
See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.

Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.

Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.


There are some real problems with these arguments, honestly, in excess of the value or lack thereof of electric vehicles.

First, putting down half the value on a new car is kind of a crazy ask. I put down $10K on my $35k car, and that was probably too much of a down payment, honestly. If I saved $10k a year and put down $20K on a downpayment as you suggest, inflation ate 3% of that when it was time to buy. My credit union charges 1.9%, and I can drive the car while making those payments.

Where can you buy any new car for $10k? So far as I know there is not a single car on the market that meets that criteria of any kind.

I think I agree with pretty much everything else you said in this thread though. Electric is definitely the future, but not yet the now. Maybe 10 years.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/18 14:36:24


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 CptJake wrote:
I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.

Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?

Something else I've not seen brought up is the use of rare earth metals, which are getting more expensive and which China is doing a pretty good job of about cornering the market on. US mines are about stopped due to environmental issues driving up costs.





The element question is valid and leads to even more questions. The subsidy argument will be ignored or ridiculed because of how many people here operate in an environment where they get to take advantage of those subsidies constantly.

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Mind you, looking at the number of times various governments have bailed out different motor industries I don't think anyone can claim any kind of car is without subsidies.

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In terms of pollution the CO2 from traditional cars is what the world really, really needs to reduce now as it's a guaranteed route for global disaster,

so despite the problems with electric car battery manufacture they are a better bet simply because the pollution they cause is more local and more amenable to being prevented or mediated if the will to do so was there

 
   
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Not really a fan of electrics, hopefully I’m dead before I can’t fill up my gas guzzling V8 with high octane goodness any more. I figure I probably pollute less by keeping my classic cars on the road than I would if I bought a new car every few years anyway.

I’ve long thought the best solution is to make lightweight cars that run conventional engines and just use very little power. Of course the industry is going the opposite direction with folk wanting more and more luxury in their cars that helps weigh them down, and safety regulations don’t help. Don’t we have enough people in the world that we can cut back on safety yet?
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

All cars are expensive now. I think it’s all the tech they are adding in, like trunks you open by waving your foot or your car stopping for you because people are too busy looking at cellphones and forgot they were supposed to watch the road, and apple carplay and whatever else. I was in the market for a new SUV, probably a jeep wrangler or grand cherokee.. I was pretty bummed when I saw that for either of those I need to cough up $40,000 for a worthwhile model. I looked into the new Honda Passport and a few others, same thing. I paid $25k for my 2008 wrangler, and I know they get more expensive each year, seems like a ripoff having it go up $15k for pretty much the same thing I had before as far as trim goes.

So that’s when I started looking at Teslas and even without the tax incentives, if I’m gonna have to spend $40k anyway, a $40k tesla will get me to work and back, and my sister’s place in NYC in 1 charge, I have the convenience of ever having to go to a gas station again and I’ll save myself at least $1000 a year in fuel and maintenance. Well, I think maintenance might be little more expensive on the tesla, but it’s not mandatory to the point of killing your car like changing your oil. They recommend something like $400 the first year and then $800 the next, but it’s not mandatory, just suggested mainteance. I also like that the warranty is 8 years and something like 120k miles. My current jeep was 3 years 36k miles. I usually get a new car every 4-5 years. But, since the model 3 is a sporty sedan and I’ve always been a SUV guy, there’s a good chance I may hate sitting in the street when I test drive it .. if that’s the case, I may have to just wait on the Model Y in 2 years, or look into some EVs from the other companies, but Tesla’s seem to have more tech and more extras like a supercharger network that I can use in addition to other company’s charging stations. I’m not sure if you can charge a Nissan Leaf at a tesla supercharger station?

For me though, I think for average driving I’d be perfectly fine with the basic cable that comes with the tesla, you plug into a standard outlet and gives you like 5 miles per hour of charging. I do 70 miles a day, I come home from work, plug er in, and it should be all recharged by the time I’m ready to leave in the AM. Though I would probably look into getting the wall charger that goes up to 25 miles per hour, I kinda think it might be better to keep the basic cable in the car all the time so I have it for emergencies.

I really do feel that over the next decade you’re gonna see a lot more EVs and people adopting them over ICE cars for the majority of the population, especially as more and faster charging stations start popping up. yeah there’s always gonna be people that need a big pickup or whatever, and that’s fine. but your average person commuting to work or over the river and through the woods to grandma’s house, I think an EV is a great idea.

 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I hate the growing SUV trend. How did they trick people into paying more for a worse car?

What’s wrong with a good old estate car...now in electronic form?
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Estate car? I googled, we call them Station Wagons here

Those are fine, there's just very few options for those now, because everyone in 'murica needs bigger and better, so it's all SUVs. And I think a lot of the soccer moms didn't want to be considered a soccer mom, so they went with a bigger SUV with 3 rows of seats rather than a mini van.

The only real station wagons you see are the Subaru Outback, really rare to see from other companies. I considered getting one of them last time, but at the time She Who Must Be Obeyed decreed I have to buy an American car.. so I went with a Jeep Renegade, which it turns out is just a Fiat reskin with 4WD, and made in Italy

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Ouze wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.

Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.

Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.


There are some real problems with these arguments, honestly, in excess of the value or lack thereof of electric vehicles.

First, putting down half the value on a new car is kind of a crazy ask. I put down $10K on my $35k car, and that was probably too much of a down payment, honestly. If I saved $10k a year and put down $20K on a downpayment as you suggest, inflation ate 3% of that when it was time to buy. My credit union charges 1.9%, and I can drive the car while making those payments.

Where can you buy any new car for $10k? So far as I know there is not a single car on the market that meets that criteria of any kind.

I think I agree with pretty much everything else you said in this thread though. Electric is definitely the future, but not yet the now. Maybe 10 years.




I was talking about putting down half the value of a used car. And not to buy new ever, unless you are rich enough to buy it outright.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

The government incentive on the Model 3 is just cherry on the top for EV buyers, the car is worth what they are asking based on how it performs alone. I agree with the incentives when I think about the government trying to support a new technology that is beneficial for the country. The US auto industry is not doing great in general, factories are closing, Ford doesn't even make a Sedan anymore. The big three say they cant make cars that compete.........Yet Tesla comes out of nowhere and has the number 1 selling American car in the united states, BOOM! The only thing holding them back is they cant make them fast enough. There is no doubt that EVs are the future. Tesla just shipped 10s of thousands of units to Europe and Asia and is taking market share from many foreign auto makers here and around the world, the government should support that if it wants The US to have a strong auto industry in the future. Im not as big a fan when I hear that next year cheap Chinese EVS are going to get the same US government incentive when they sell cars here. The Chinese government believes in EVS so much that they are doing everything they can to support their domestic EV manufacturing, China wants to be a auto manufacturer, but that hasn't worked out too well for them in the past. They see an opportunity here it corner the market on EV production and their government is going all in, giving loans and land to their manufacturers! So i see great value in The US supporting domestic EV growth, we want to be the provider of these cars to the world and hold onto our manufacturing base.

And I also hate our move to everyone driving an SUV. They are gakky cars for daily driving. Unless you live where you need one or are an enthusiast who goes "Mudding" they are a poor car choice. Their high center of gravity and tippy nature makes them less than ideal vs a Sedan or a mini van.

Necros, have you looked at the official maintenance schedule for the Model 3, its a joke, don't spend the money. Its a tire rotation, fluid top off and a multi point inspection, they change your air filter and brake fluid every 25K miles, I have never drained and replaced the brake fluid in any of my cars....EVER, topped off sure after a brake job, and with the amount you use the classic brakes in a Tesla.....this is just unwarranted. If you go to the Tesla forums nobody recommends these, its service you can easily do yourself and is not mandatory. Like I said, I know people that have had their car for years, tires, windshield wiper fluid and windshield wipers.....that is the extent of the maintenance needed on a car that is 4 years old and has 200K miles on it. Now to be fair, my 2011 Mazda three only required the same thing plus oil changes and a brake job at 250K miles, it was a well built car except for one issue ill get into later. My wifes 2011 300 has needed minimal maintenance also, oils changes and brake jobs being the most intense, oh and a door handle cable broke under warranty....which is nothing. My biggest complaint I had about my Mazda, which could be see as serious was it had a pretty serious non adjustable camber issue on the suspension which improved the driving dynamics......but ate tires way to fast even with regular rotations. Good tires are not cheap, so it was a major flaw.

Oh and the only thing you can charge at a Tesla Supercharger is a Tesla. They do give you an adapter that will let you charge at most other EV stations, but with the amount of superchargers out there, I think needing the adapter is situational at best.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/03/18 19:12:19


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your electric car, but you're stating things which are solely based around a consumer experience with a new electric car. That's more or less irrelevant to most of the discussion we're having. You can get a very reasonable lease with included-service for almost any new car, and swap it out every 3-4 years and never "pay" for buying the car or even genuine serious maintenance.

We're not talking about performance of an electric car or how cool it feels to drive one. We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels. At current tech levels, it's simply not the answer.

The cars are producing serious waste just from manufacturing, and again long-term battery disposal will be a genuine issue. We're not talking about mileage, we're talking about 10-15-20 year old massive battery packs being disposed of. We're talking about usefulness of EVs outside of a first world urban city environment. We're talking about the limited application on a world wide market. We're talking about the lack of useful power grids in "most" countries in the world. Heck most modern US cities are operating near max capacity on their power grids and literally couldn't accept a sudden switch to electric vehicles anyway.

Honestly if you were concerned about the actual environment, you'd be looking in a completely different direction than EVs. It's a short term solution to "feeling good" without really doing much good. It's a fix it now, worry about it later method. The market longevity in itself is a massive risk.

I don't really care how much an EV can or cannot save a consumer. I'm interested in worldwide applications, and EVs are a drop in the bucket. As mentioned before, they're good for manufacturers because A) they can sell them with government backed subsidies (i.e. boost their own sales using taxpayer money), B) They can promote accurate and false information about how progressive and forward thinking they are (see also: "feeling good"), C) They can reduce work forces at plants producing vehicles if they can get EVs to become more popular. I'll give a guess which two of those three are the most important ones.

For the people discussing normal Co2 emissions from road cars, that's a surprisingly small amount of pollution in the world scheme, particularly from well-regulated first world country vehicles. Heavy industry, trucking and air travel produce more (see: all of the exempted "developing nations" with zero environmental restrictions - think China is interested in EVs because of their environmental impact? Think again. That country loses 750,000 people a year from lung cancer due to coal-firing plants...China wants the money from EV sales.)

As a world-changing device, EVs are a joke, but they're a fine consumer product for people who want them. Even if 40% of US cars suddenly became EVs, the environmental impact would be minimal.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Without actual data it's useless to talk about the problems of battery recycling.

The batteries are broken down to recover the elements, which are recycled into new batteries.

This is the same idea as recycling parts like the catalytic convertor of an ICE vehicle.

As for pollution, my town has the worst air quality in South Oxfordshire, and that is caused by ICE vehicles idling as they wait to get through. Most cities in the UK are the same, regularly breaking health limits for pollution caused by ICE vehicles.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Grey Templar 772819 wrote:

I was talking about putting down half the value of a used car. And not to buy new ever, unless you are rich enough to buy it outright.


You need to look at total cost of ownership and not purchase price. When you consider fuel and maintenance costs you may find it's cheaper to run a $30k EV than a $10k ICE over few years as the purchase price is amortized and offset against fuel savings.

I know people whose monthly car payments for EV is less than they paid for gas in their last car. Admittedly we're about $9/gallon.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Andrew1975 wrote:
In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.


Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.

Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil changed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.


This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.


ToC doesn't have a one. For that matter, never seen one in Los Cruces, a city of over 100,000 some 75 miles away. Sure, YOUR small town has superchargers. Not all - or even most - of them do. That factor will loom large in the acceptance of EVs until it changes all over.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant





Believeland, OH

 Elbows wrote:
I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your electric car, but you're stating things which are solely based around a consumer experience with a new electric car. That's more or less irrelevant to most of the discussion we're having. You can get a very reasonable lease with included-service for almost any new car, and swap it out every 3-4 years and never "pay" for buying the car or even genuine serious maintenance.

We're not talking about performance of an electric car or how cool it feels to drive one. We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels. At current tech levels, it's simply not the answer.

The cars are producing serious waste just from manufacturing, and again long-term battery disposal will be a genuine issue. We're not talking about mileage, we're talking about 10-15-20 year old massive battery packs being disposed of. We're talking about usefulness of EVs outside of a first world urban city environment. We're talking about the limited application on a world wide market. We're talking about the lack of useful power grids in "most" countries in the world. Heck most modern US cities are operating near max capacity on their power grids and literally couldn't accept a sudden switch to electric vehicles anyway.

Honestly if you were concerned about the actual environment, you'd be looking in a completely different direction than EVs. It's a short term solution to "feeling good" without really doing much good. It's a fix it now, worry about it later method. The market longevity in itself is a massive risk.

I don't really care how much an EV can or cannot save a consumer. I'm interested in worldwide applications, and EVs are a drop in the bucket. As mentioned before, they're good for manufacturers because A) they can sell them with government backed subsidies (i.e. boost their own sales using taxpayer money), B) They can promote accurate and false information about how progressive and forward thinking they are (see also: "feeling good"), C) They can reduce work forces at plants producing vehicles if they can get EVs to become more popular. I'll give a guess which two of those three are the most important ones.

For the people discussing normal Co2 emissions from road cars, that's a surprisingly small amount of pollution in the world scheme, particularly from well-regulated first world country vehicles. Heavy industry, trucking and air travel produce more (see: all of the exempted "developing nations" with zero environmental restrictions - think China is interested in EVs because of their environmental impact? Think again. That country loses 750,000 people a year from lung cancer due to coal-firing plants...China wants the money from EV sales.)

As a world-changing device, EVs are a joke, but they're a fine consumer product for people who want them. Even if 40% of US cars suddenly became EVs, the environmental impact would be minimal.


Leasing is financially the worst option for most people unless you own your own company. You end up paying for the depreciation of the vehicle which everyone knows is greatest in the first few years.

"We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels." That's funny, I thought we were answering this question from the OP "So just curious… what are you thoughts on modern electric cars? Any good? Here to stay? Would you ever consider getting one?" considering he was thinking of buying one and I have personal experience with the model 3 he is thinking of getting, and all the arguments as to why its one of the best cars evey made.

I'm not a hippy, I bought my model 3 because I needed a new reliable car, and in my opinion you cant beat the value of the model 3 from the base line to the performance version. You get more car for your money with the model 3. You get better performance, ease of use, lower energy bills and lower maintenance cost, in a package that happens to be better for the environment and I get to buy American Win, Win, and Win!

You can't even compare the environmental issues of the model 3 with Ice cars. Ice emissions are just the tip of the ICEberg, oil is a filthy business, how many acres of the world are toxic because of oil spills, how many petty dictators and terrorists get their funding from the petro dollar? The United states has spent $5.9 Trillion dollars and, how much damage has been done over there in the name of oil?

I agree China doesnt care about the environment, but that wasn't my point. China is doubling down on the EV market because they want to corner it, their attempts to enter in auto manufacturing have been a joke, this could put them on the world stage, while being the nail in the coffin for the BIG THREE American auto manufacturers.

Do EVS work everywhere today, no of course not. We are dealing with the first generation of mass produced EVs, and the Model 3 already beats ICE cars in almost every way and ICE have been around for 150 years! Thats how first gen tech works, it only gets better, Tesla is already working on a rugged pickup truck with a battery capable of 500 miles. The OP doesnt live in SUb Sahara Africa, Antarctica or even India, so I think its a pretty good choice for him. The rest of the world will catch up as the tech comes along.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Andrew1975 wrote:
In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.


Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.

Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil changed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.


This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.


ToC doesn't have a one. For that matter, never seen one in Los Cruces, a city of over 100,000 some 75 miles away. Sure, YOUR small town has superchargers. Not all - or even most - of them do. That factor will loom large in the acceptance of EVs until it changes all over.


Battery degradation is easy to spot, and its far less of a problem than ICE degradation on the thousands of components and moving parts, you just check the charge, much easy than rolling the Dice on an ICE car. What components are you going to check on the ICE car, you gonna dyno it and check its horsepower, you gonna take apart the engine and make sure the seals and gaskets are good? You gonna open the transmission case and check to see if there is sawdust in it?

I dont know where ToC is but Los Cruces had had Supercharging since 2017, two locations actually, probably more now https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/local/2017/09/15/city-installs-tesla-electric-car-charging-stations/669478001/

There are official Supercharger Stations, there are also many businesses that have "Destination" supercharger stations, there is also an app called Plugshare that lists where private people and businesses have chargers you can use. It really not that hard to find charging if you need it.

By the way if you were driving from ToC (wherever that is) to Los Cruces you could make it there and just plug in at home when you got back, no need to stop. The lowest end Model 3 has 220 miles of range on a charge.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2019/03/19 05:00:51


"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Batteries from EVs can be used as-is in all sorts of other uses when they become unsuitable for driving.

The thing people seem to miss is the performance. Base Tesla Model 3s get to 60 in under 6 seconds. They can beat most non-cars just without the noise or fuel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Andrew1975 wrote:
In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.


Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.

Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil our.


Batteries degrade, sure, but not as badly as other types of battery for various reasons; there's a monitoring and conditioning going on.

Tesla with 100,00s of miles still have something like 95% of their range.

It'll still be a concern for the older shorter range cars (losing some of a 60 mile range is going to hurt a lot more than losing some of a 300 mile range).

The only thing EVs won't be able to do better than has is long range towing and heavy off grid use. You can charge anywhere with electricity now, and fast charging infrastructure will catch up to demand as it's needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/19 07:27:19


 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

EVs seem to all have long warranties. Teslas are 100k miles or maybe it was 120k.. I looked at others and they're also real high. Assuming that's around when the battery life starts to go down a bit. I wouldn't have my car that long, I usually get a new car every 4-5 years, I think the most I ever had was around 70k miles.

Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The batteries are full of valuable metals. The batteries gradually degrade in performance because the insulation breaks down or becomes permeated as metal ions migrate under the influence of the voltage. The metals are still in there, though, and can be recovered and made into new batteries.

Another example of recycling is regenerative braking. This is when the car slows itself by the resistance of the motors being run "backwards" and generating power tp put back into the battery. Not only does this recover energy as electricity, it also avoids use of the conventional brakes, saving wear on the brake pads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/19 14:06:12


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

 Necros wrote:
Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?


They are great for using to store energy from solar panels, I believe Tesla has some kind of battery system for that too (so you charge the garage battery from a solar panel during the day, and transfer that to the car at night). They can also be reconditioned or recycled, so there's minimal waste.

Some EV's come with leased batteries, so you buy the car and rent the battery. That means once it drops below a given threshold (about 75%) you'll get it replaced under the lease. It does make it a bit more expensive than owning though but with the additional peace of mind.
   
 
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