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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So here's my issue with electric cars that probably was already addressed.

In terms of the problems electric cars have, these are none issues.

Do they know what type of power plant the electricity for that car came from?

When you transfer from ICE to EV you aren't just moving the pollution from the car to the power plant, you are increasing the efficiency of the energy delivery. So even if you use a dirty old coal power plant to generate that electricity it is still cleaner than the process of extracting oil, refining it, transporting it and then burning it. It's not going to be as clean as nuclear or green technologies, but it's still more efficient and cleaner than Ice. This none-problem will be further reduced in future as, in the Western world at least, coal is a dying industry.

I also used to hear about electric cars not being able to run as long as gas or be able to handle as much. This could be a problem if you need to do heavy duty driving.

Read at least the last two pages. Most small EV run about 150 miles on a charge. Large EV do over 200 miles. The average UK owner of a car doesn't drive 200 miles in a week (first Google search I did for figures found this ) (would be worth finding figures for other countries - the US is huge, but I imagine most owners seldom drive outside their metropolitan area).

There are considerations to be made for frequent long distance drivers, which make up a minority of car owners, emergency services and off the grid work, but for the average owner range is a none-issue. (and who the hell drives over 200 miles without having at least a 10 minute rest break any way?)

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

This shows the types of live power generation at any given time.
Currently, renewables are at 32%, on a gloomy still day.
Gas is at 43%, the bigggest source listed just now.

Also, charging a car is usually done overnight. This is when lots of the power generated would be wasted, or used to refresh the storage (pumping hydro back up the hill).
Smart chargers can be told to wait until the generation conditions are the the most favourable, leaving peak times free.

Herzlos wrote:
I actually passed a DPD vehicle earlier, they apparently have the largest EV delivery fleet in the UK (700 vans):
https://apex-insight.com/dpd-now-has-largest-electric-delivery-fleet-in-uk/

Amazon has also been investing in EV delivery vehicles, with 10,000 being mentioned.

So it really is just the long-distance couriers which can't go electric yet, and heavy haulage but the Tesla truck will be a game changer there too.

The Tesla truck is still bound by the laws of physics and will have to carry at the very least 10 Tons of batteries (and probably more like 12) to get to advertised specs.

That's a significant payload penalty compared to diesel or HFC trucks and that's why Daimler keeps the exact specs of the eActros and eCascadia under wraps.

"GM Sells Out First Year of Electric Hummer Production"
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/10/23/0110249/gm-sells-out-first-year-of-electric-hummer-production#comments
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-electric-hummer/gm-sells-out-first-year-of-electric-hummer-production-idUSKBN27639J

The GMC website showed a "reservations full" banner over the Hummer EV "Edition 1," due to start production in the fall of 2021. The next version of the truck, the $99,995 Hummer EV 3X, is not scheduled to begin production until the fall of 2022. The least expensive Hummer EV, starting at $79,995, is scheduled to go into production in the spring of 2024, GM said.

It's begun....

 Skinnereal wrote:
"GM Sells Out First Year of Electric Hummer Production"
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/10/23/0110249/gm-sells-out-first-year-of-electric-hummer-production#comments
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-electric-hummer/gm-sells-out-first-year-of-electric-hummer-production-idUSKBN27639J

The GMC website showed a "reservations full" banner over the Hummer EV "Edition 1," due to start production in the fall of 2021. The next version of the truck, the $99,995 Hummer EV 3X, is not scheduled to begin production until the fall of 2022. The least expensive Hummer EV, starting at $79,995, is scheduled to go into production in the spring of 2024, GM said.

It's begun....

To be fair, this seems to be the case with pretty much all EVs when they're first released. We looked at the Kona and eNiro when we were looking to buy last year and both were sold out until at least this March. Similar things happened with more expensive EV options from Jaguar and Audi, IIRC. I think this is more a case of manufacturers not quite believing fully in EVs yet so they're still hedging their bets on production runs - selling out of a smaller number is better than having excess stock and that's especially true with the way battery technology is developing so rapidly. Even being 12-18months behind the curve can make your "new" car look bad compared to the competition.

jouso wrote:


The Tesla truck is still bound by the laws of physics and will have to carry at the very least 10 Tons of batteries (and probably more like 12) to get to advertised specs.

That's a significant payload penalty compared to diesel or HFC trucks and that's why Daimler keeps the exact specs of the eActros and eCascadia under wraps.

Yeah a Tesla truck is going to be heavier than a diesel truck because of the batteries, but it'll have much lower running costs.
I tried to look into what percentage of trucks were at full weight capacity rather, but I couldn't find anything so I'm not sure how much of a problem it is to have some extra battery weight. As I said it's definitely a problem for Transit sized vans because in the UK at least there's a maximum weight of 3500kg (8000lb) before you need to get another driving license and use a tachograph, so it's not as easy as just increasing the weight limit a bit to compensate for the batteries.

Herzlos wrote:

jouso wrote:


The Tesla truck is still bound by the laws of physics and will have to carry at the very least 10 Tons of batteries (and probably more like 12) to get to advertised specs.

That's a significant payload penalty compared to diesel or HFC trucks and that's why Daimler keeps the exact specs of the eActros and eCascadia under wraps.

Yeah a Tesla truck is going to be heavier than a diesel truck because of the batteries, but it'll have much lower running costs.
I tried to look into what percentage of trucks were at full weight capacity rather, but I couldn't find anything so I'm not sure how much of a problem it is to have some extra battery weight. As I said it's definitely a problem for Transit sized vans because in the UK at least there's a maximum weight of 3500kg (8000lb) before you need to get another driving license and use a tachograph, so it's not as easy as just increasing the weight limit a bit to compensate for the batteries.

Heavy truck trailers are limited to 40T combination trailer + head, and payload is limited to 24T.

If you increase your gross weight by 12T that's half your payload gone.

That said, e-vans got an electrification weight extra allowance so we might see something there.

jouso wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

jouso wrote:


The Tesla truck is still bound by the laws of physics and will have to carry at the very least 10 Tons of batteries (and probably more like 12) to get to advertised specs.

That's a significant payload penalty compared to diesel or HFC trucks and that's why Daimler keeps the exact specs of the eActros and eCascadia under wraps.

Yeah a Tesla truck is going to be heavier than a diesel truck because of the batteries, but it'll have much lower running costs.
I tried to look into what percentage of trucks were at full weight capacity rather, but I couldn't find anything so I'm not sure how much of a problem it is to have some extra battery weight. As I said it's definitely a problem for Transit sized vans because in the UK at least there's a maximum weight of 3500kg (8000lb) before you need to get another driving license and use a tachograph, so it's not as easy as just increasing the weight limit a bit to compensate for the batteries.

Heavy truck trailers are limited to 40T combination trailer + head, and payload is limited to 24T.

If you increase your gross weight by 12T that's half your payload gone.

That said, e-vans got an electrification weight extra allowance so we might see something there.

I'd love to see where you are coming up with a figure of 12 tons for the battery. Yes it will be heavier, bigger battery and stainless steel, but not 12 tons just for the battery. A model 3 is not that much heavier than a Ice vehicle of the same size. Right now the estimated weight of the entire cybertrck is around 3 tons. 5,000 to 6,500 pounds.

Or are you refeering to the Semi? But even the Semi is listed around 8 tons of total weight at 17,400 pounds.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

I'd love to see where you are coming up with a figure of 12 tons for the battery. Yes it will be heavier, bigger battery and stainless steel, but not 12 tons just for the battery. A model 3 is not that much heavier than a Ice vehicle of the same size. Right now the estimated weight of the entire cybertrck is around 3 tons. 5,000 to 6,500 pounds.

Or are you refeering to the Semi? But even the Semi is listed around 8 tons of total weight at 17,400 pounds.

We were speaking about the semi (go to the OP I was replying saying "So it really is just the long-distance couriers which can't go electric yet, and heavy haulage but the Tesla truck will be a game changer there too.").

The Semi doesn't have any specs yet other than range, but there are estimates out there.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.7b00432#

These guys come up with a lower end of 16 tons (my recollection was 12, but there you go). Sure, that was estimated shortly after reveal, but energy density hasn't improved significantly since then.

The cybertruck has other issues, basically that there's absolutely no way it can pass pedestrian safety tests in its present form but as long as they keep to to North America only it won't be an issue.

Those figures seem to be to get to 600 miles range, whilst Tesla is proposing 250, 300 and 500 mile range variants.

At a capped 56mph, 250 miles is 5 hours driving, and in the UK you need to take a break at least every 4 hours 45 minutes so you should be able to recharge over a break.

Your link shows that a short range truck would still have a 19,000kg payload which is a bit down on 24,000kg but not catastrophic.

As I said, I haven't found figures on how heavy an average load is, so I'm not sure how big an issue it is.
You'll hit the weight limit before you run out of volume when hauling bricks, but you'll hit volume before weight if it's pillows.

Obviously if you're running a double driver rig or traversing somewhere like the Australian outback, it's no use. But for depot to supermarket runs it's fine.

As much as I loathe elon musk I will say that tesla has been hampered by government

Some states, notably texas, have laws and regulations (Regulations are just laws that don't have to follow the constitution, basically.) that make it harder for tesla to sell in them.

If a mainstream car chain tries to sell electrics it will be a lot harder for this to happen to them, as tesla was trying to use a new and different approach to car selling.

https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/31/8694673/tesla-loses-fight-to-sell-cars-in-texas

While this was 5 years ago I don't see any proof it changed.

Meanwhile musk faces more direct sabotage at tesla.

https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/tesla-alleges-act-employee-sabotage-calif-plant

 Matt Swain wrote:
As much as I loathe elon musk I will say that tesla has been hampered by government

Some states, notably texas, have laws and regulations (Regulations are just laws that don't have to follow the constitution, basically.) that make it harder for tesla to sell in them.

If a mainstream car chain tries to sell electrics it will be a lot harder for this to happen to them, as tesla was trying to use a new and different approach to car selling.

I'm sure these days car manufacturers in general (not just Tesla) would like the option of being able to sell direct to the public, but regulations in lots of places (not just the US) prevent that. I think these days a lot of people know the new car they want to buy and would be happier saving some money and getting it directly from the dealer, but the laws stop manufacturers bypassing the dealers.

I dunno if this was a specific anti-Tesla hampering by the government, or the government just following the status quo. Just because Tesla can't sell directly doesn't mean they can't choose to sell through dealers, it's what every other manufacturer does.

Herzlos wrote:
Those figures seem to be to get to 600 miles range, whilst Tesla is proposing 250, 300 and 500 mile range variants.

No one knows for sure because so far the specs are only good on paper and on the rare PR deliveries always show with a light load.

Likewise, the Daimler electric trucks that are already in limited operation have extremely little public info on actual capabilities.

We'll know when we'll now but if the things were as good as they're supposed to be you numbers would be all over the place by now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I'm sure these days car manufacturers in general (not just Tesla) would like the option of being able to sell direct to the public, but regulations in lots of places (not just the US) prevent that. I think these days a lot of people know the new car they want to buy and would be happier saving some money and getting it directly from the dealer, but the laws stop manufacturers bypassing the dealers.

I dunno if this was a specific anti-Tesla hampering by the government, or the government just following the status quo. Just because Tesla can't sell directly doesn't mean they can't choose to sell through dealers, it's what every other manufacturer does.

IMHO, not really. . . Speaking only of what I know of the industry, there's several issues to be brought up. . . Now, I understand that in the European market, the "standard" is that a person walks in to a dealership with whatever marque they are after (Alfa, BMW, Lada, whatever), take a test drive of a car purchased by said dealer as a road testing demo model. Upon choosing which model they want, they sit down with the paperwork and fill it out to the spec's they want with whichever option they want, then play a moderate waiting game for processing and the build to happen in the queue. In many countries (such as Germany, where I was stationed and purchased cars), the act of "trading in" a car is a separate transaction from the act of purchasing one.

European car companies have their supply chains down to a T for that market, and operate about as efficiently as they can under said model.

In the US, the typical standard is that a person walks in off the street (or, drives with their trade-in fodder vehicle), talks with a pushy sales person, discusses the model they wish to test drive (typically at/near "top of the line" trim packages for most money), haggle over price, wait for 2-3 hours for finance, sign paperwork and drive off the lot with a new vehicle. . . Typically, this is the very unit that was taken on the test drive. As such, American car makers who ship to their domestic dealers have a supply chain whereupon they build a target number of vehicles at particular trim/options packages, and divide them up throughout their dealer network. . . You do NOT sit down with a build sheet and option out a new vehicle and wait for the factory to build it, as most dealers view this as being too risky and not worth the "payout" later. I won't say that the US domestic brands have their supply chains nailed down, cuz working in the industry I can see that its a total gak show all over the place. This isn't to say that people do not fill out build sheets and build their "dream" car, but the way the American car sales game works, it is highly frowned upon.


Take for instance BMW, a company that sells vehicles in most global markets. . . Per their "special" factory tour that we did as a part of my MBA schooling, we discussed some basic statistical numbers in BMW sales. . . Per their rep who was guiding us around, roughly 92% of vehicles sold in the "global market" (ie, not the USA) were specc'd by the customer and built to their desires, with only 8% being sold as a factory allotted pre-build. . . In the US, its nearly the exact opposite.


Now, my point is not that it would be impossible to significantly alter the auto industry to a point where a person who is in the market for a new car could hop on to "auto-maker LLC.com" and build their car, order it, and secure financing all in one stop on the manufacturer's website, but the industry does rely significantly on demonstration to a point where it simply makes sense to keep some form of dealership network intact. I don't know how it is over in Europe, but in the US, the dealership network is also the focal point of factory maintenance. It is where the vast majority of all recalls and warranty repairs are carried out (and for the significantly loyal, even some out of warranty/out of pocket repairs). The way things are currently, the automakers have significant control over their "factory certified" technician training and equipment, and are very unlikely to give that up any time soon.

Honestly to me it makes far more sense to buy a car off the lot as being standard than having every car be a custom order. I think custom ordering should be fine as an option, but as part of mass marketing it doesn't make sense for everybody to be making minor tweaks to their car. That just seems like a logistical nightmare.

I do think that manufacturers should be able to sell direct to customers, but 3rd party dealers should also still be around. Both make sense to have. A manufacturer might be able to get you a better deal or give customization, but a Dealership can let you drive away with a car immediately. And lets be honest, most people who are shopping for a new car are probably needing that car right away because the old one is dying or already dead.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Now, my point is not that it would be impossible to significantly alter the auto industry to a point where a person who is in the market for a new car could hop on to "auto-maker LLC.com" and build their car, order it, and secure financing all in one stop on the manufacturer's website,

That's happening already. At least over here you can conduct the whole sales process through the manufacturer's website and just make a couple signatures on delivery.

We recently did that for the missus' 500, all the process done only the website gives you a choice of nearby dealerships you want to pick up but other than presumably getting their cut you have absolutely no financial interaction with them.

Manufacturing still works in batches, though. If you choose a particularly niche choice of paint colour or interior the dealer will try to direct you to something they have in stock (on in Europe in the manufacturer's different logistics hubs). I think by now all manufacturers operate with pooled stock and they'll tell you "we have a model just like the one you asked but it's on a different dealership on some city across the country, so will take 3-4 days to get here).

Presumably the mfg has a set of inter-dealership pricing so that they all have cheap-ish access to the pooled stock.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I'm sure these days car manufacturers in general (not just Tesla) would like the option of being able to sell direct to the public, but regulations in lots of places (not just the US) prevent that. I think these days a lot of people know the new car they want to buy and would be happier saving some money and getting it directly from the dealer, but the laws stop manufacturers bypassing the dealers.

I dunno if this was a specific anti-Tesla hampering by the government, or the government just following the status quo. Just because Tesla can't sell directly doesn't mean they can't choose to sell through dealers, it's what every other manufacturer does.

IMHO, not really. . . Speaking only of what I know of the industry, there's several issues to be brought up. . . Now, I understand that in the European market, the "standard" is that a person walks in to a dealership with whatever marque they are after (Alfa, BMW, Lada, whatever), take a test drive of a car purchased by said dealer as a road testing demo model. Upon choosing which model they want, they sit down with the paperwork and fill it out to the spec's they want with whichever option they want, then play a moderate waiting game for processing and the build to happen in the queue. In many countries (such as Germany, where I was stationed and purchased cars), the act of "trading in" a car is a separate transaction from the act of purchasing one.

European car companies have their supply chains down to a T for that market, and operate about as efficiently as they can under said model.

In the US, the typical standard is that a person walks in off the street (or, drives with their trade-in fodder vehicle), talks with a pushy sales person, discusses the model they wish to test drive (typically at/near "top of the line" trim packages for most money), haggle over price, wait for 2-3 hours for finance, sign paperwork and drive off the lot with a new vehicle. . . Typically, this is the very unit that was taken on the test drive. As such, American car makers who ship to their domestic dealers have a supply chain whereupon they build a target number of vehicles at particular trim/options packages, and divide them up throughout their dealer network. . . You do NOT sit down with a build sheet and option out a new vehicle and wait for the factory to build it, as most dealers view this as being too risky and not worth the "payout" later. I won't say that the US domestic brands have their supply chains nailed down, cuz working in the industry I can see that its a total gak show all over the place. This isn't to say that people do not fill out build sheets and build their "dream" car, but the way the American car sales game works, it is highly frowned upon.


Take for instance BMW, a company that sells vehicles in most global markets. . . Per their "special" factory tour that we did as a part of my MBA schooling, we discussed some basic statistical numbers in BMW sales. . . Per their rep who was guiding us around, roughly 92% of vehicles sold in the "global market" (ie, not the USA) were specc'd by the customer and built to their desires, with only 8% being sold as a factory allotted pre-build. . . In the US, its nearly the exact opposite.


Now, my point is not that it would be impossible to significantly alter the auto industry to a point where a person who is in the market for a new car could hop on to "auto-maker LLC.com" and build their car, order it, and secure financing all in one stop on the manufacturer's website, but the industry does rely significantly on demonstration to a point where it simply makes sense to keep some form of dealership network intact. I don't know how it is over in Europe, but in the US, the dealership network is also the focal point of factory maintenance. It is where the vast majority of all recalls and warranty repairs are carried out (and for the significantly loyal, even some out of warranty/out of pocket repairs). The way things are currently, the automakers have significant control over their "factory certified" technician training and equipment, and are very unlikely to give that up any time soon.

Interesting comparison, I guess since I mostly look at specialist vehicles my feeling was a significant number of people order in a vehicle rather than buying an off the lot vehicle (the car forums I frequent, I'd say most people bought from the factory, with a few buying demos to get a better deal).

But either way, that wasn't really central to my point. The problem in Texas and many other places is that you can't buy direct from the manufacturer due to the local laws preventing manufacturers selling direct to the consumer. Maybe people in Europe are more inclined to buy from the factory than people in the US, but either way I think a significant portion of people would buy from the manufacturer if they were allowed and it saved them money.

I haven't read into it deeply, but I don't think Texas was being anti-Tesla so much as pro-status-quo. Dealers have a stranglehold and the only way you can sell vehicles is through a dealer. That doesn't mean you need to set up brand new dealerships, but might need to negotiate with existing dealers to carry your vehicles. Over here in Australia we have that, where a few manufacturers with low production numbers will negotiate a shared dealer network, and/or large dealers will have multiple lots on the same site with different manufacturers. Tesla doesn't want to do that, they want to sell direct to the consumer and therefore are trying to change it in the courts.

Yeah as I understand it Texas requires sales via a dealership (presumably the dealerships have some political sway), and Tesla doesn't want the overhead of either building a dealership or paying another dealership to stock their cars.

Though over here they've got a few showrooms where you can look at and order the cars, so I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a dealership.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Honestly to me it makes far more sense to buy a car off the lot as being standard than having every car be a custom order. I think custom ordering should be fine as an option, but as part of mass marketing it doesn't make sense for everybody to be making minor tweaks to their car. That just seems like a logistical nightmare

On the contrary; building cars without customers is a logistical nightmare - how do you decide what to build and where to send them? What do you do with the colours/specs that aren't popular?

Car manufacturing is tuned to a huge degree and is very efficient, with each car being tracked along the line and build differently to the one before it to the extend that appropriate parts and tools can be fed to the operative as each car appears. It's then loaded up and send to the customer.

Admittedly, whilst this process is efficient for the factory (almost nothing is built and unused), it does mean the end customer has to wait a while for delivery (easily 6+ months for popular models).

There's always some dealer stock, but it's often ex-demo or pre-registered (so you'd be the 2nd owner). There's also a lot of nearly new cars via the rental network. So it's usually possible to get a car immediately if it's in stock and you're not too fussed about the spec.

Herzlos wrote:

On the contrary; building cars without customers is a logistical nightmare - how do you decide what to build and where to send them? What do you do with the colours/specs that aren't popular?

Like any other normal product. You make a few generic templates of what your market research has determined to be popular and keep any deviation from that reserved for the special orders, which will probably be rare. If something is not popular you only make very very small quantities or just not at all.

Make generic models for the masses, and have custom options be for the special snowflakes who are willing to pay extra and wait for them.

I just really can't fathom why anybody would wait 6 months for a car so they can have special cupholders or a certain color and have that be the default way you buy a car, vs just buying a stock model. That makes more sense to be a special order and not a normal thing.

 Grey Templar wrote:

I just really can't fathom why anybody would wait 6 months for a car so they can have special cupholders or a certain color and have that be the default way you buy a car, vs just buying a stock model. That makes more sense to be a special order and not a normal thing.

The spec list is pretty comprehensive, with potentially hundreds or thousands of configurations. if I was buying a new car, why wouldn't I want it customized exactly how I want it?

The 6+ month wait is usually for new/popular models, so you've potentially got a similar wait for dealer stock. It just means you order the car ahead of time although it does cause problems when there are delays.

(Personally I doubt I'll ever buy new anyway, I couldn't justify it over a 2-3 year old model)

6 months would be for something special like a newly released sports car where you have to get in a queue, and the alternative is probably some horribly abused demo model that they have in stock and might have, god forbid, an automatic transmission

When I've spoken to dealers about ordering cars in they've usually said ~3 months wait, which might sound like a lot when you're in desperate need of a car, but if your current vehicle works fine and you're just upgrading it's really not that bad.

But custom ordering is still somewhat separate to the discussion of dealerships, as even if you were buying direct from the manufacturer they'd have some level of stock, it's not like they wouldn't carry anything and it's not like they wouldn't have local distribution centres. It just wouldn't be like we have at the moment where major cities have dealerships every few miles and you go from one to the next trying to find the best deal on the best car, which is kinda absurd when you're buying a brand new car. When I was looking to buy a Mazda Miata/MX5 I went to 5 different dealerships across the eastern side of my city and 1 on the western side. 6 cars with slightly different options and managed to haggle 6 different prices

 Grey Templar wrote:
I just really can't fathom why anybody would wait 6 months for a car so they can have special cupholders or a certain color and have that be the default way you buy a car, vs just buying a stock model.

I don't know how this compares with the US, but a healthy proportion of new European cars are paid for through leasing. Since you know when the time will be up on your existing car you pop into the dealer a few months in advance, work out the details of your next car. Then when your lease is due you hand over the old car, pick up the new one, specced exactly as you want it, and drive off. No waiting. I don't lease, but from those I know who do they reckon about 6 weeks notice is enough to get your car sorted. The dealership always calls you in advance to discuss the end of your lease.

I find myself thinking that the manufacturers might think that if you're the sort of person who needs a car right now and can't wait, are you the sort of person (on average) who's going to be buying a brand new car? (acknowledging there will be people who've lost a car through damage, etc. and needing an immediate replacement).

And if you are one of those people who absolutely need a brand new car and can afford it right now the dealership networks always have spares lying around, nearly new, ex demo, returns, cancelled orders. They can almost always get them to you within a week. So it's not like there's anyone in the world who's left stranded because they can't get a new car because of cup holders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
When I was looking to buy a Mazda Miata/MX5 I went to 5 different dealerships across the eastern side of my city and 1 on the western side. 6 cars with slightly different options and managed to haggle 6 different prices

Yeah, you don't get that in Europe. The price is the price. The best you can haggle out of them is to add some car mats, a full tank of fuel and maybe a cuddly toy for the parcel shelf. There's no point in jumping from dealership to dealership looking for the best price as they all charge the same.

 Grey Templar wrote:


I just really can't fathom why anybody would wait 6 months for a car so they can have special cupholders or a certain color and have that be the default way you buy a car, vs just buying a stock model. That makes more sense to be a special order and not a normal thing.

6 months seems a little on the extreme side, so I don't think that's typical at all. That'd be for very popular new models that have a waiting list. Much more typical is around 6-8 weeks (our Leaf was just over 6 weeks IIRC, but it was the standard, base colour option and the most popular trim level). The level of customisability is quite high for new cars nowadays. I know different manufacturers do things very differently, but even within the 3 standard trim levels our car was available in there were probably a dozen or so options we could change, ranging from different types of headlights to adding upgraded auto-driving options and even whether to get a spare wheel or not.

The weird thing is, all this is perfectly natural in the UK (and presumably much of Europe from what I can tell) and we find it all a bit odd that anyone would drive to a dealership and realistically expect to drive off with a brand new car there and then. I don't think either approach is wrong as such, and both have their benefits, it's just two different approaches. The only thing I am confused about the buy-it-now method is how common is it for people to absolutely need to get a car immediately? Isn't this the kind of thing you tend to want to plan ahead for, especially when buying new? In some circumstances I can see the requirement for a replacement immediately (yours just breaks down and for whatever reason is a write-off, for example) but that would seem to me to be the exception rather than the norm.

It's actually near impossible to get a car in the UK on the same day even if it's in stock - usually you can go into a dealership and pick a car, look around any maybe test drive it, pay a deposit and sort finance. Then you'd need to come back a few days later after the car has been "prepared" (cleaned up, MOT test if required, any fixes made, and taxed). It's a bit of a nuisance having to make 2 trips if the dealership isn't local.

 Henry wrote:

Yeah, you don't get that in Europe. The price is the price. The best you can haggle out of them is to add some car mats, a full tank of fuel and maybe a cuddly toy for the parcel shelf. There's no point in jumping from dealership to dealership looking for the best price as they all charge the same.

It's rare that you'd pay list price on a brand new car unless it's something that's in demand (like an electric Niro) or no frills (like Dacia). The discount is often called a finance contribution or deposit though, so relies on you taking the car on finance (which most people do, and those that don't can take the finance and pay it off).

Slipspace wrote:


The weird thing is, all this is perfectly natural in the UK (and presumably much of Europe from what I can tell) and we find it all a bit odd that anyone would drive to a dealership and realistically expect to drive off with a brand new car there and then. I don't think either approach is wrong as such, and both have their benefits, it's just two different approaches. The only thing I am confused about the buy-it-now method is how common is it for people to absolutely need to get a car immediately? Isn't this the kind of thing you tend to want to plan ahead for, especially when buying new? In some circumstances I can see the requirement for a replacement immediately (yours just breaks down and for whatever reason is a write-off, for example) but that would seem to me to be the exception rather than the norm.

Well yes. Usually unless you are in a rush because your current car is dead for some reason you'd shop around, but that involves going to different dealerships and haggling to get a decent price. This would apply to new and used cars.

Myself personally I would never buy a new car. Far too expensive and unnecessary since there are lots of used cars which are in perfectly fine shape. But that's a situation where you'd shop around and haggle even more than with a new car. In all cases, the car you'd actually be buying is right in front of you. You could actually examine it, maybe even take it to your trusted mechanic and have him examine it, and then when you pay for it you have it in your possession immediately.

Car warehouses in the UK often sell cars on the same day. They take money weekly too, if you're into that sort of thing.

 Henry wrote:
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
When I was looking to buy a Mazda Miata/MX5 I went to 5 different dealerships across the eastern side of my city and 1 on the western side. 6 cars with slightly different options and managed to haggle 6 different prices

Yeah, you don't get that in Europe. The price is the price. The best you can haggle out of them is to add some car mats, a full tank of fuel and maybe a cuddly toy for the parcel shelf. There's no point in jumping from dealership to dealership looking for the best price as they all charge the same.

I should say, it does depend on the dealership here. Mazda was like that, on a $40,000 MX5 there was maybe $2000-3000 wiggle room. One of the Mazda dealers showed me their book which had the minimum prices they were allowed to sell for, but I imagine in the right circumstances you could haggle more out of it (though maybe not for an MX5, given it's a comparatively uncommon sports car). At a Hyundai dealership I showed interest in a $20,000 car and before I could get a word in the guy had already knocked $3000 off it. A friend got an $80,000 Merc for about $12,000 less, but most dealers don't have such a big % of room to play with.

But the other side of the coin is Suzuki, who had absolutely no wiggle room. The price set by Suzuki was what all the dealers were charging, and the only time there was a discount was when Suzuki as a whole had a sale, in which case all dealers got the same discount. I still looked around though because I wanted a blue one with a manual transmission The only deal you could swing was for dealer installed extras, car mats, etc.

I guess I'd be classified as a car enthusiast, if I'm gonna spend 10's of thousands of dollars on a car I'm damn well going to get the colour I want and it better have a manual transmission.

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Herzlos wrote:
It's actually near impossible to get a car in the UK on the same day even if it's in stock - usually you can go into a dealership and pick a car, look around any maybe test drive it, pay a deposit and sort finance. Then you'd need to come back a few days later after the car has been "prepared" (cleaned up, MOT test if required, any fixes made, and taxed). It's a bit of a nuisance having to make 2 trips if the dealership isn't local.

I think that's something that's uncommon everywhere. I've never picked up a car the same day I bought it, and I've bought cars in both USA and Australia. Even when I didn't own a car in the USA and bought one from a dealer, I came back the next day to pick it up, don't remember why though.

But it's not impossible, just a bit of a headache to sort out everything to pick it up on the same day. One of my friends had a clutch failure on a car that was less than a year old, they went back to the dealer to get it fixed under warranty and instead ended up trading it the same day on a brand new car and driving it home the same day. But that's an oddball case.

In the US if you go into a dealership and test drive and don't go home with a new car, your salesman is a failure and will probably get fired if he lets that happen too much.

I usually do all of my research ahead of time and don't bother going to the dealership until I'm ready to drive home with my new car, and I'll find the dealer online that has the exact car I want and go there. And I'll contact the dealer ahead of time and work out the prices and stuff too if I can, because I hate haggling and being hard-sold to. I just wanna buy what I want and leave. I kinda like how Tesla lets you just order online and skips the whole dealership experience. I wish you could do that with more companies.

Herzlos wrote:
Yeah as I understand it Texas requires sales via a dealership (presumably the dealerships have some political sway), and Tesla doesn't want the overhead of either building a dealership or paying another dealership to stock their cars.

Though over here they've got a few showrooms where you can look at and order the cars, so I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a dealership.

IIRC, it isn't so much the dealers who have sway, but the manufacturers themselves (especially GM, Ford, and FCA) who hold the sway. . . Not as big in the news as Texas, but Tesla was also fighting laws in Michigan over the issue of dealerships/direct sales. And at least in Michigan, it was Detroit's Big Three leading the fight against Tesla . . . Though, to be honest, with the number of automakers who are offering their own in-house financial options, I'm not sure why they are fighting to keep the dealership model so hard. There's definitely no altruistic reason for it, that's for damn sure. In the US dealer based model, sales of new units doesn't actually make that much money. Most of the money is made through the banks, and the service department (in some part this is one reason why we see so many companies creating their own financial arm, which can have very big/very negative impact on individuals when things go wrong)


IMHO, the big difference between what Tesla does and a "dealership" in the sense we're talking is ownership. For instance, if one walks in to an Apple store, or even a Games Workshop storefront, you know you are buying a product directly from the manufacturer. . . This is essentially what Tesla is doing. The dealership model is, for lack of a better way of putting it (and to use similar examples), where you'd get your iPhone from T-Mobile or whatever cell carrier, or your Warhammer stuff from your FLGS. It's the "ownership" aspect of the store that has changed even if the product has not.

 Necros wrote:
In the US if you go into a dealership and test drive and don't go home with a new car, your salesman is a failure and will probably get fired if he lets that happen too much.

Do you mean actually physically go home with the car, or just deposit to commit to the purchase and start the paperwork?

When I bought a car in the US, I put down a deposit and came back the next day with finances sorted out and picked it up. I don't even remember why I didn't pick it up the same day as I didn't own a car at all at the time and needed to get a friend to taxi me around. That just seemed like the done thing, the dealer wasn't pushing me to take the car there and then, once they had a deposit they were happy.

I'm pretty sure every country you CAN buy a car and take it home the same day (other than the situation where the car needs work I guess), but I figure that's the odd thing and the more common one is to put down a deposit. I know people who have only bought cars they could drive home that minute, but they were weirdos buying cheap used vehicles, not brand new ones.