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Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

HoundsofDemos wrote:To me Vigilus highlights a problem that goes back to 7th edition. I either have the complete rules for my army or I don't. I primarily play space marines and to me there is no such thing as optional expansions. Any supplement or WD release is mandatory or I'm playing my faction with out the complete omnibus of options. I wish GW would do more to consolidate it's rules releases.

I get what you mean. I feel the same way about video game DLC. Oh sure, the Taken King was optional, but it was the first time the game was actually good. On the other hand, I don't see how Games Workshop could make it easier to have all your relevant rules short of just not releasing expansions.

---

Talizvar wrote:I must also have the two Chapter Approved.
Really?

Talizvar wrote:Chapter Approved should contain completely all rules updates outlined in the prior CA book(s) and the FAQ that came before..
I thought this was already the case. Is it not? You mean to tell me that the only way to have all up to date points changes is to have every Chapter Approved to date? That's really stupid, especially considering that the 2017 edition is no longer available.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Ginjitzu wrote:


Talizvar wrote:Chapter Approved should contain completely all rules updates outlined in the prior CA book(s) and the FAQ that came before..
I thought this was already the case. Is it not? You mean to tell me that the only way to have all up to date points changes is to have every Chapter Approved to date? That's really stupid, especially considering that the 2017 edition is no longer available.


They do re-print all the points costs from before.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I don't know what people are talking about with not needing a ton of stuff for your army anymore. I need no less than 4, or 6 books to play my mono guard army. Plus FAQs.

The Guard codex, index with the guard ( for my rough riders, yes I have them, no I won't just not use my enjoyed models ) Imperial armor to be able to use vendettas ( Which as well I have and were in the book up to this one ) , Chapter approved. Now if I want to run assassins I need to find the WD or I can't play my models at all, which is great fun and vigilus for if I want formations, and they will just keep making these formation books because let us be honest they will keep pumping these books out and they will always feel mandatory as the only way to keep up with those who will buy them, if you're in that kinda play group.

That is an awful lot of books, even to reference in an electronic medium which they said they were not going to do but here it is. As well, that is all conservatively keeping in mind what all I'd need in a normal game. How is that not much ?
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

HoundsofDemos wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.


Your peddling an equal falsehood though. Yes he's being a bit hyperbolic but the underlying point is no wrong.

To have the complete rules just for one army I play Space marines I need the following

Codex Space Marine
Index Space Marine
Forge World index
Various FAQs
CA
White Dwarfs
The vanguard mini codex

Thats three books and almost half a dozen side documents and that's just to play one army.


Is that 93 books needed to play? No. It isn’t. So I’m not peddling anything, thanks. Utter hyperbole on BCB’s part. I didn’t say you only needed one book to play, but claiming you “need” 93 is plain wrong.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Saying you need 93, is hyperbole truth. However, saying I actually had to get a back pack just to carry all the books I would need or books and tablet, is absolutely true. That was when I knew there was a problem for me I could no longer fit my books with the army in question and needed another way to carry them and even then it may eventually feel like I'm back in high school with all the campaign books that have like 20 pages of formations/rules.

I wouldn't mind so much if they sold the rules alone in paper back, and sell the narrative and rules together in another book. Would cut down on cost and size for those who don't want/need all the fluff, maybe time gate just the rules like a month down the line so you have something smaller to carry.

I would say it would be a great idea if they do these version 2 books to put not only the points and FAQ changes but also add in the formations, new rules, etc. Even if they charge more for the version 2 then. People would appreciate it just for the case of having it all in one place. I mean I know they won't because they love talking out of both sides of their mouth. Say how bad bloat is then bloat you all to hell when they could in fact condense things.

The idea of New GW, which started with hope is quickly becoming a meme, you might as well say . " War, War never changes, and neither does GW. "

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/24 09:01:16


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




We do seem to be moving towards a situation similar to 7th edition, with new rules spread out across multiple publications and I don't think that's a good thing. GW have even said there'll be more Vigilus-style books in the future, so if you play an army that's included in both you'll need even more books to get access to everything for your army. Personally I'm ignoring the Vigilus books for my army because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I think GW need to find a much, much better way to make rules available. I think publishing stuff in WD is about the dumbest way to do things if they're not going to make that content available later in some way. I suspect we're not far away form the Index books becoming obsolete and GW might declare them non-official once the Sisters are out and everyone has a Codex. That would suck because some very valid options are only available via Index but it would help clear up some of the clutter.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Slipspace wrote:
We do seem to be moving towards a situation similar to 7th edition, with new rules spread out across multiple publications and I don't think that's a good thing. GW have even said there'll be more Vigilus-style books in the future, so if you play an army that's included in both you'll need even more books to get access to everything for your army. Personally I'm ignoring the Vigilus books for my army because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I think GW need to find a much, much better way to make rules available. I think publishing stuff in WD is about the dumbest way to do things if they're not going to make that content available later in some way. I suspect we're not far away form the Index books becoming obsolete and GW might declare them non-official once the Sisters are out and everyone has a Codex. That would suck because some very valid options are only available via Index but it would help clear up some of the clutter.


Why? It makes bank for them to split up the rules in very differing Books.
I mean in essence they sell you now een what ammounts to balance patches, that is EA BULLGAK level.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Money wise, we all get it. They want to rock you for each dime. However they had stated what a bad idea the 7th ed way of doing it was and now are full power to engines going down the same path. We all know it is just to make bank but they could make bank anyways and didn't need to claim it wouldn't be this way if it quite honestly will just be this way. We'd have to be the dumbest people on the earth to forget what they said not that long ago. Though I'm sure if you brought up the bloat to them they'd give you some GW double speak to try and make it seem like it doesn't exist but it's only promised to get worse and worse.
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





There's not a single model in this game that you need a Vigilus book to play. These are additional rules and additional ways to play your models, it's a bit of added army customization and it's excellent. No, they aren't able to magically rewrite extra pages into your old codex that you bought, and with all the new content they deliver they shouldn't have to, I am the first to say GW is overpriced but it also needn't be free, the Vigilus books would have taken serious manhours of writing and development. This is one of the dumbest possible things hobbiests I've seen complained about honestly, and that's quite incredible considering how this community generally reacts to, well, everything.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ok, but at the same time they were writing the new chaos codex. If they knew they wanted to fix csm in vigilus, then why didn't they put all the updates in the vigilus book. Right now if you want to use both the new oblits rules and the new csm for CP farming you have to buy both, and a chaos player probably already owns the old csm codex, the old index, and the CAs. That is what 4-5 books needed to play, and that is no souping. If they want to run a magnus/mortarion or some demons, it takes extra books.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Not Online!!! wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
We do seem to be moving towards a situation similar to 7th edition, with new rules spread out across multiple publications and I don't think that's a good thing. GW have even said there'll be more Vigilus-style books in the future, so if you play an army that's included in both you'll need even more books to get access to everything for your army. Personally I'm ignoring the Vigilus books for my army because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I think GW need to find a much, much better way to make rules available. I think publishing stuff in WD is about the dumbest way to do things if they're not going to make that content available later in some way. I suspect we're not far away form the Index books becoming obsolete and GW might declare them non-official once the Sisters are out and everyone has a Codex. That would suck because some very valid options are only available via Index but it would help clear up some of the clutter.


Why? It makes bank for them to split up the rules in very differing Books.
I mean in essence they sell you now een what ammounts to balance patches, that is EA BULLGAK level.


yes because selling you new rules supplements for your table top games is something that only recently happened because of EA! games never ever ever released options and additional rules! nope never!

ohh wait, AD&D 2nd edition had something like a hundred books released for it. and that was before DLC was ever dreamed up.

supplement books for gaming has been part of gaming since the 80s at the LEAST. this isn't some new evil plot GW has dreamed up.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




But what GW sells are not supplements. It is content that should be in one book. When they make the csm book, and csm in it are bad, and then at the same time they make a second csm book which gives csm good rules, then they aren't supplementing anything, they are just cuting up army books in to multiple pices, so people have to buy more books and more models to have a working army.

I don't know much about AD&D, but I bet the core stuff worked and the extra stuff added new stuff that wasn't in the core book. Vigilus doesn't added anything new to csm, other then giving CSM the rules they should have in the first place.

And this is just mono faction stuff. What about those armies for which to play you need to play another army alongside of them, because GW decided to give them bad rules. Like Harlequins for exmaple?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Every game that lasts more than a year gets more and more splatbooks.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

AngryAngel80 wrote:I don't know what people are talking about with not needing a ton of stuff for your army anymore. I need no less than 4, or 6 books to play my mono guard army. Plus FAQs.

The Guard codex, index with the guard ( for my rough riders, yes I have them, no I won't just not use my enjoyed models ) Imperial armor to be able to use vendettas ( Which as well I have and were in the book up to this one ) , Chapter approved. Now if I want to run assassins I need to find the WD or I can't play my models at all, which is great fun and vigilus for if I want formations, and they will just keep making these formation books because let us be honest they will keep pumping these books out and they will always feel mandatory as the only way to keep up with those who will buy them, if you're in that kinda play group.

That is an awful lot of books, even to reference in an electronic medium which they said they were not going to do but here it is. As well, that is all conservatively keeping in mind what all I'd need in a normal game. How is that not much ?

To be fair though, Chapter Approved is something most of us asked for in order to receive yearly points updates. It's one more book than before, but the alternative was waiting four or five years for your next codex update. White Dwarf rules have always been a pain in the arse, but I can see why they do it to keep White Dwarf relevant, and even if they didn't, Assassin's are not part of the Guard, so you were always going to need a separate publication to field them. I hear what you're saying about rough riders and vendetta's though. I don't see any justification for taking those away from a book they were already a part of. That just stinks. At most, a setup like yours should cost you no more than one book for Guard, one book for Assassin's, and Chapter Approved if you want the updates.
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Karol wrote:
Ok, but at the same time they were writing the new chaos codex. If they knew they wanted to fix csm in vigilus, then why didn't they put all the updates in the vigilus book. Right now if you want to use both the new oblits rules and the new csm for CP farming you have to buy both, and a chaos player probably already owns the old csm codex, the old index, and the CAs. That is what 4-5 books needed to play, and that is no souping. If they want to run a magnus/mortarion or some demons, it takes extra books.

Once again, you didn't read the post, you just rattled off a pre-canned response. Actually read my post and the answer is already there.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
We do seem to be moving towards a situation similar to 7th edition, with new rules spread out across multiple publications and I don't think that's a good thing. GW have even said there'll be more Vigilus-style books in the future, so if you play an army that's included in both you'll need even more books to get access to everything for your army. Personally I'm ignoring the Vigilus books for my army because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I think GW need to find a much, much better way to make rules available. I think publishing stuff in WD is about the dumbest way to do things if they're not going to make that content available later in some way. I suspect we're not far away form the Index books becoming obsolete and GW might declare them non-official once the Sisters are out and everyone has a Codex. That would suck because some very valid options are only available via Index but it would help clear up some of the clutter.


Why? It makes bank for them to split up the rules in very differing Books.
I mean in essence they sell you now een what ammounts to balance patches, that is EA BULLGAK level.


yes because selling you new rules supplements for your table top games is something that only recently happened because of EA! games never ever ever released options and additional rules! nope never!

ohh wait, AD&D 2nd edition had something like a hundred books released for it. and that was before DLC was ever dreamed up.

supplement books for gaming has been part of gaming since the 80s at the LEAST. this isn't some new evil plot GW has dreamed up.


Ca is not a suplement book, ca is a fething balance Patch.
I am not willing to pay for a balance Patch, the additional rules i concede but pts changes ? Nope.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in de
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




You don't buy CA because of points costs alone. If you aren't interested in the points costs, don't buy it. And even if you are, wait a week and get them from Battlescribe.
   
Made in jp
Guarding Guardian



Tokyo

I feel like point changes and corrections should be available free of charge and if, it is possible, pushed as free updates to all electronic versions of the rules.
   
Made in gb
Commanding Lordling





Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
We do seem to be moving towards a situation similar to 7th edition, with new rules spread out across multiple publications and I don't think that's a good thing. GW have even said there'll be more Vigilus-style books in the future, so if you play an army that's included in both you'll need even more books to get access to everything for your army. Personally I'm ignoring the Vigilus books for my army because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

I think GW need to find a much, much better way to make rules available. I think publishing stuff in WD is about the dumbest way to do things if they're not going to make that content available later in some way. I suspect we're not far away form the Index books becoming obsolete and GW might declare them non-official once the Sisters are out and everyone has a Codex. That would suck because some very valid options are only available via Index but it would help clear up some of the clutter.


Why? It makes bank for them to split up the rules in very differing Books.
I mean in essence they sell you now een what ammounts to balance patches, that is EA BULLGAK level.


yes because selling you new rules supplements for your table top games is something that only recently happened because of EA! games never ever ever released options and additional rules! nope never!

ohh wait, AD&D 2nd edition had something like a hundred books released for it. and that was before DLC was ever dreamed up.

supplement books for gaming has been part of gaming since the 80s at the LEAST. this isn't some new evil plot GW has dreamed up.


Ca is not a suplement book, ca is a fething balance Patch.
I am not willing to pay for a balance Patch, the additional rules i concede but pts changes ? Nope.


I feel like GW doesn't understand that part of their competition includes online games which can update their ruleset every week or two, entirely for free. In comparison, charging £20 for a balance update that can be six months (or more) out of date by the time it's released seems pretty weak.

They need to embrace the digital side of things more. Let there be a single source for all the rules you need and it would tremendously cut down on content bloat.
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

We don't need to buy new content that we do not want. I can happily run Dark Angels with the single book. I bring the Vigilus book to show the special Stratagems to opponents out of courtesy, but buying the book and using the Ravenwing Attack Squadron was completely my choice. I was happy they had some content in there that interested me. Didn't buy the next Vigilus book. Still play the game each week.

If I am bringing an extra book to game night to allow me to use a fussy model or formation not in my base Codex then that is the cost of doing business. I was bummed the Librarian on a Bike was dropped and is only in the Index. If anything, I worry about them streamlining content!

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





HoundsofDemos wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
He keeps peddling that line line it’s truth, I wouldn’t worry. Not everyone wants to play every army at once, so it’s a total non-issue.


Your peddling an equal falsehood though. Yes he's being a bit hyperbolic but the underlying point is no wrong.

To have the complete rules just for one army I play Space marines I need the following

Codex Space Marine
Index Space Marine
Forge World index
Various FAQs
CA
White Dwarfs
The vanguard mini codex

Thats three books and almost half a dozen side documents and that's just to play one army.


I mean...no. When someone says something "a bit hyperbolic" like "you need to have 93 documents to play this game" and the actual number of documents is, at worst, 7 (assuming your army includes one of each of those elements you just listed) then it's not "equally false" to say the person exaggerating the numbers by a factor of rougly 10 is engaging in some higgldy-piggldy.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 SHUPPET wrote:
Karol wrote:
Ok, but at the same time they were writing the new chaos codex. If they knew they wanted to fix csm in vigilus, then why didn't they put all the updates in the vigilus book. Right now if you want to use both the new oblits rules and the new csm for CP farming you have to buy both, and a chaos player probably already owns the old csm codex, the old index, and the CAs. That is what 4-5 books needed to play, and that is no souping. If they want to run a magnus/mortarion or some demons, it takes extra books.

Once again, you didn't read the post, you just rattled off a pre-canned response. Actually read my post and the answer is already there.

Am not sure what a precanned response is. All I know is that made two books back to back. In one the core unit, that is in the name of the faction, the unit is bad. In the other it is fixed. One would have to want to play csm without any csm to not need the second book.

I mean is there an explanation why they split the csm from the codex and vigilus book in to two separate parts? If a company makes a car that breaks down, they don't go on and say that people should just buy a different car from them. They had to replace the one which is broken, or give money back. GW gave csm bad rules in the index, in the codex and in the 2.0 codex. They should have fixed what they did bad in the 2.0 book, specialy as there is no 3 years between the 2.0 csm codex and vigilus 2. If there was, one could say that GW just couldn't make a good new csm codex, so they gave the csm player an option to be a patch till the new codex comes. When both books come in a matter of 2 weeks between each other, it seems like they just cut content in half, so people buy 2 books. Now you say am wrong and that the anwser is in your post I reacted to, but I don't see where. All you claim is that GW is doesn't have to deliver new content, for old books, because they give new stuff. But A the stuff isn't new they are just remaking stuff which they made bad in the first place.

Your claim that it takes a lot of man hours to write new stuff. Well aren't the people paid to do that stuff? If GW can't write rules on time, or write them right, then why don't they hire more people. Everyone says how much GW makes money nowadays, how about they invest some of it in to designers. also most of the rules that csm got in vigilus exist in some way in other armies, or it is just making other chaos rules better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
We don't need to buy new content that we do not want. I can happily run Dark Angels with the single book. I bring the Vigilus book to show the special Stratagems to opponents out of courtesy, but buying the book and using the Ravenwing Attack Squadron was completely my choice. I was happy they had some content in there that interested me. Didn't buy the next Vigilus book. Still play the game each week.

If I am bringing an extra book to game night to allow me to use a fussy model or formation not in my base Codex then that is the cost of doing business. I was bummed the Librarian on a Bike was dropped and is only in the Index. If anything, I worry about them streamlining content!

Well that is all well and nice that people let you play like that. But very often people just won't let you play with models, if you don't have the proper rules for it. And in most cases then not they will want the printed version, because they aren't interested in checking if you didn't play around with the digital version.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 11:54:23


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Karol wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Karol wrote:
Ok, but at the same time they were writing the new chaos codex. If they knew they wanted to fix csm in vigilus, then why didn't they put all the updates in the vigilus book. Right now if you want to use both the new oblits rules and the new csm for CP farming you have to buy both, and a chaos player probably already owns the old csm codex, the old index, and the CAs. That is what 4-5 books needed to play, and that is no souping. If they want to run a magnus/mortarion or some demons, it takes extra books.

Once again, you didn't read the post, you just rattled off a pre-canned response. Actually read my post and the answer is already there.

Am not sure what a precanned response is. All I know is that made two books back to back. In one the core unit, that is in the name of the faction, the unit is bad. In the other it is fixed. One would have to want to play csm without any csm to not need the second book.

I mean is there an explanation why they split the csm from the codex and vigilus book in to two separate parts? If a company makes a car that breaks down, they don't go on and say that people should just buy a different car from them. They had to replace the one which is broken, or give money back. GW gave csm bad rules in the index, in the codex and in the 2.0 codex. They should have fixed what they did bad in the 2.0 book, specialy as there is no 3 years between the 2.0 csm codex and vigilus 2. If there was, one could say that GW just couldn't make a good new csm codex, so they gave the csm player an option to be a patch till the new codex comes. When both books come in a matter of 2 weeks between each other, it seems like they just cut content in half, so people buy 2 books. Now you say am wrong and that the anwser is in your post I reacted to, but I don't see where. All you claim is that GW is doesn't have to deliver new content, for old books, because they give new stuff. But A the stuff isn't new they are just remaking stuff which they made bad in the first place.

Your claim that it takes a lot of man hours to write new stuff. Well aren't the people paid to do that stuff? If GW can't write rules on time, or write them right, then why don't they hire more people. Everyone says how much GW makes money nowadays, how about they invest some of it in to designers. also most of the rules that csm got in vigilus exist in some way in other armies, or it is just making other chaos rules better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
We don't need to buy new content that we do not want. I can happily run Dark Angels with the single book. I bring the Vigilus book to show the special Stratagems to opponents out of courtesy, but buying the book and using the Ravenwing Attack Squadron was completely my choice. I was happy they had some content in there that interested me. Didn't buy the next Vigilus book. Still play the game each week.

If I am bringing an extra book to game night to allow me to use a fussy model or formation not in my base Codex then that is the cost of doing business. I was bummed the Librarian on a Bike was dropped and is only in the Index. If anything, I worry about them streamlining content!

Well that is all well and nice that people let you play like that. But very often people just won't let you play with models, if you don't have the proper rules for it. And in most cases then not they will want the printed version, because they aren't interested in checking if you didn't play around with the digital version.


You mean like how if you bought the digital edition of the CSM codex (1.0) you got the digital edition of the new codex (2.0) for free?

GW isn't going to mail you a replacement book, no, but if you are trying to find fault with the CSM 2.0 codex you should keep in mind that a significant chunk of the playerbase did actually get those rule updates for free - which, incidentally, also included the rules update from chapter approved as well.
   
Made in ca
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Canada

Karol wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Karol wrote:
Ok, but at the same time they were writing the new chaos codex. If they knew they wanted to fix csm in vigilus, then why didn't they put all the updates in the vigilus book. Right now if you want to use both the new oblits rules and the new csm for CP farming you have to buy both, and a chaos player probably already owns the old csm codex, the old index, and the CAs. That is what 4-5 books needed to play, and that is no souping. If they want to run a magnus/mortarion or some demons, it takes extra books.

Once again, you didn't read the post, you just rattled off a pre-canned response. Actually read my post and the answer is already there.

Am not sure what a precanned response is. All I know is that made two books back to back. In one the core unit, that is in the name of the faction, the unit is bad. In the other it is fixed. One would have to want to play csm without any csm to not need the second book.

I mean is there an explanation why they split the csm from the codex and vigilus book in to two separate parts? If a company makes a car that breaks down, they don't go on and say that people should just buy a different car from them. They had to replace the one which is broken, or give money back. GW gave csm bad rules in the index, in the codex and in the 2.0 codex. They should have fixed what they did bad in the 2.0 book, specialy as there is no 3 years between the 2.0 csm codex and vigilus 2. If there was, one could say that GW just couldn't make a good new csm codex, so they gave the csm player an option to be a patch till the new codex comes. When both books come in a matter of 2 weeks between each other, it seems like they just cut content in half, so people buy 2 books. Now you say am wrong and that the anwser is in your post I reacted to, but I don't see where. All you claim is that GW is doesn't have to deliver new content, for old books, because they give new stuff. But A the stuff isn't new they are just remaking stuff which they made bad in the first place.

Your claim that it takes a lot of man hours to write new stuff. Well aren't the people paid to do that stuff? If GW can't write rules on time, or write them right, then why don't they hire more people. Everyone says how much GW makes money nowadays, how about they invest some of it in to designers. also most of the rules that csm got in vigilus exist in some way in other armies, or it is just making other chaos rules better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
We don't need to buy new content that we do not want. I can happily run Dark Angels with the single book. I bring the Vigilus book to show the special Stratagems to opponents out of courtesy, but buying the book and using the Ravenwing Attack Squadron was completely my choice. I was happy they had some content in there that interested me. Didn't buy the next Vigilus book. Still play the game each week.

If I am bringing an extra book to game night to allow me to use a fussy model or formation not in my base Codex then that is the cost of doing business. I was bummed the Librarian on a Bike was dropped and is only in the Index. If anything, I worry about them streamlining content!

Well that is all well and nice that people let you play like that. But very often people just won't let you play with models, if you don't have the proper rules for it. And in most cases then not they will want the printed version, because they aren't interested in checking if you didn't play around with the digital version.


Karol,

My post says I bring the books for my models. My point I still that I can happily play with my base Codex and the use of additional content is my choice. Any additional books are because I have chosen to add something like a special formation or an Index unit.

I have never seen anyone question the authenticity of a book or accuse someone of playing around with a digital version.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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I do feel it's well past the time they should switch to digital. And they need to do updates more than twice per year. And errata should be errata, not FAQ is only for rules and CA is only for points. Errata should be errata, and CA should consolidate that errata into one book with reprinted datasheets/rules/etc.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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They could go the route as X-wing of controlling / posting the points values for free and all other information needs a book.

They could go a step further and you have a subscription that you pay for for each Codex you want and then the "errata" is automatically updated in the main documents as was mentioned.

All the other rules out there tend to be specific to a campaign setting which I have mixed feelings about including in a main Codex... it is content specifically designed as "flavor" for a given environment of play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Ginjitzu wrote:
Talizvar wrote:Chapter Approved should contain completely all rules updates outlined in the prior CA book(s) and the FAQ that came before..
I thought this was already the case. Is it not? You mean to tell me that the only way to have all up to date points changes is to have every Chapter Approved to date? That's really stupid, especially considering that the 2017 edition is no longer available.
They do re-print all the points costs from before.
Yes, I do agree they did carry-over the points but there are fundamental rule changes made not completely covered by the CA latest book.
I will have to go home and pick out some specifics, I was making a searchable Excel list and noticed a few things a couple months back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 13:28:00


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I think its a bit harder to keep up this edition from a rules aspect. in 5th and 6th I knew all of the codexes , rules, interactions for units etc. in 7th the formations started to make that more difficult but was mostly managable. in this "simpler edition" with different strategems, formations, vigilus detachment bonuses, chapter/army keywords etc it is much more difficult to keep up with everything. I like the variety in narrative games, but tournament play is more difficult to keep up with everything all the armies can do.

it is a mixed bag though it all makes the games more varied and interesting for sure.

The new models pumping out more frequently is also a mixed bag. lots of cool models, but if you like doing higher very detailed paintjobs its hard to keep up. I have several boxes for upcoming rojects and at this point have stopped buying things i want to paitn until i can clear some of the backlog. as an example i have the ambots that will become a warboss in mega armor and a big mek in megaarmor. but I am not even through painting all of the buggies yet and also have some wake the dead models to finish just to name a few.

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I continually perplexed by people who say that Games Workshop should make rules free. Why on Earth would they give away something that people are already willing to pay for? Don't get me wrong; I wish they would give the rules away for free, but to suggest that they should, neglects to consider the entire purpose of Games Workshop in the first place.
   
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 SHUPPET wrote:
There's not a single model in this game that you need a Vigilus book to play. These are additional rules and additional ways to play your models, it's a bit of added army customization and it's excellent. No, they aren't able to magically rewrite extra pages into your old codex that you bought, and with all the new content they deliver they shouldn't have to, I am the first to say GW is overpriced but it also needn't be free, the Vigilus books would have taken serious manhours of writing and development. This is one of the dumbest possible things hobbiests I've seen complained about honestly, and that's quite incredible considering how this community generally reacts to, well, everything.


Depending on how competitive the place you play some of these updates may become near mandatory if you want to play on equal footing. Same as they did in 7th, it was hardly a choice, unless the choice was win or lose at the list phase. So sure it's optional, but many don't feel that way if your force is just straight better with it, then it becomes more a forced option and less a real choice. Kind of how eating is a choice, or upgrading to a new edition of the game is a choice. They are but are they really ?

I did in fact never say the rules should be free. I just said why not when they do a secondary print run, place extra rules in the new codex and charge for it. At least then it's stream lining the books and not adding another on top of another. As the second vigilus book is while not mandatory it has things for using the models you have that could have very well been in the CSM 2.0 book. As long as they will keep supporting print media they should at least keep in mind clutter and space can be a thing so why spread out books when you can combine them if you aren't missing out on how much they are selling them for.

Like for instance, having the second vigilus book being a needed buy if you have the first CSM book and want the campaign stuff and story, but have a more expensive CSM 2.0 book with the rules for army set up from vigilus and all that in the CSM 2.0. A reason to buy both, but actually helps stream line it if that is your wish. Not free but an actual choice. I get that the digital copy has it better in this regard but you'd still need vigiuls even with the updated CSM 2.0 book.

Even if you take away vigilus and call such books an actual choice, when they will I am sure keep feeling less like a choice and more like a must have. That is still 1 book away from the, even if I'm utterly generous, 4 books to carry, that by any measure is pointless bloat. Not many are expecting free but I do try and expect them to make life easier for their customer and not a pain in the rear.
   
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 Ginjitzu wrote:
I continually perplexed by people who say that Games Workshop should make rules free. Why on Earth would they give away something that people are already willing to pay for? Don't get me wrong; I wish they would give the rules away for free, but to suggest that they should, neglects to consider the entire purpose of Games Workshop in the first place.


My suggestion to them was to make rules a subscription service. The way they structure their business, it essentially already is, but you have to buy all these fething books and lug them around with you. So, obviously, the market is there to pay for rules and support the salaries of a rules team (and maybe they could hire a few humans instead of the current staff of chimps) but you could just migrate to a system that could be easily and quickly updated when mistakes and misprints are uncovered, actively fine-tuned on a weekly basis, and with regular new content additions to justify something like a 15-20$ a month price tag. Just make up a proprietary app, pop it on the apple and play store, and upload all current rules content.
   
 
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