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Made in us
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster






Karol wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:



I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.


This would bring two types of problems, Against non demon armies GK would be just as bad as they are now, maybe worse if GW decided the new ability would cost point. And then against demons giving out -1 anti inv does matter much, when the demon player just pays 2CP and brings the unit back for free as long as it aint a named character.





Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.

On the GW facebook they just remove posts asking when they will fix GK or why they nerf them. Or at best the posts get ignored. So where is the place or what is the way to deliver the message to GW? there was a community survery before the last CA and that went horrible for GK. non of the changes reverted that made GK worse, point drops on units other marines got point drops too, but not on the overcosted troops. no stat changes etc.

That is exactly why I listed Daemonic Incursion(The 2cp resurrect strat) as one of the things that needs to be gotten rid of. The upgrade would have to be free for it to matter of course. Every single one of my changes would keep point costs the exact same so GK can keep being elite, but they clearly need buffs to make them feel elite. I also listed a bunch of match play suggestions that should be removed or altered specifically for GK.
   
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

Mike712 wrote:

This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


I really like those suggestions; not game-breaking but would definitely help GK out.

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I say just make Psybolt ammo like SIA, and make it an always on option against psychers with a bonus, so +1 to wound against psychers.

Make them be able to deny with a bonus - +2 to deny the witch.

Make their heavy weapons actually heavy. Give them higher strength and shots, and make them high AP. Make the Psylincer a 6 shot S6 ap2 2d weapon. Make the Psycannon a 2 shot S8 ap-4 d6 weapon. Throw flamers in the garbage.

Make them 3d6 charge distance with a 2cp strat, to give them the actual ability to get into CC.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 DominayTrix wrote:
Mike712 wrote:


This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.


-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.

I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.

I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.


I for one welcome our new revenant titan overlords... 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster






Mike712 wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
Mike712 wrote:


This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.


-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.

I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.

I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.


I would be happy even with a +2 cover save instead of -1 to hit. You could also instead do +1 cover save and give them a unique buff preventing them from losing their cover save. You could even make it stack with normal cover saves and it will still be better than -1 to hit. Closing the gap is pretty garbage since the BS4+ armies it hits the most are also the ones that die almost instantly in melee. (Tau and Guard) I'd really rather not play orks that also suck at melee.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 DominayTrix wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
Mike712 wrote:


This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey

Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.

The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.

An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.

Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.


-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.

I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.

I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.


I would be happy even with a +2 cover save instead of -1 to hit. You could also instead do +1 cover save and give them a unique buff preventing them from losing their cover save. You could even make it stack with normal cover saves and it will still be better than -1 to hit. Closing the gap is pretty garbage since the BS4+ armies it hits the most are also the ones that die almost instantly in melee. (Tau and Guard) I'd really rather not play orks that also suck at melee.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but grey knights have *always* been about that melee life. Their models have always come with melee weapons, and they have always been about short-range firepower?

So I don't see why having a rule that helps you survive when your not in close range is bad?
   
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Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

I don't think the -1 is the issue in the game, bit rather that the mechanic isn't fully implemented like it is in Kill Team. A mechanic that modifies your Ballistic Skill needs ways to gain bonuses to be balanced.

In my less than humble opinion about this the mechanic should look more like:
More than 1/2 weapon's rabge profile: -1 (pistols ignore this)
Standing on a higher elevation: -1
Model in cover: -1
Model does not move: +1 (vehicles, monsters and asaault weapons ignore this)
Model advanced: -1
Character within 6" chooses not to shoot can give +1 to a nearby squad (limit one use per target)
Shooting through an enemy unit: -1
Shooting a character if they aren't the closest model: -1 to hit (stacks with the above)

Remove character protections and let units with the sniper keyword ignore the last two penalties (instead they lose AP from their shot).

AP 6 weapons from the 7th and older should give +1 armour save

AP - should give +2.

Am weapons should improve their rend by 1 if the roll an unmodified wound roll of a 6 to represent hitting a weak point in the armour.

And while we're at it and I am talking changes to the game outside of shooting: moving or charging from an elevated portion (say hills, ruins or other terrain) +1" to move, advance and charge

Give beta bolter rules back to vehicles, but increase the cost of Hurricane Bolters.

Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.

Turn 1 Deep Strike could come back but units have to set up more than 11" away of enemy lines if they arrive the first turn.

Infiltration can also come back, but they should have to start 18" away from the enemy deployment zone.

Plasma, and other weapons that can hurt their bearer, should only do so on an unmodified roll of a 1.

Units being charged can elect to Overwatch, attempt to flee d3" or brace for the charge (counts as having charged for purposes of unit activation)

I admit some of these could use more fine tuning, but the seek to improve the importance of positioning, cover and even reacting to charges in more dynamic ways. Basically I have admit to wanting more strategy in my wargame.
   
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I am thinking about Fielding my small detachment of GK more as I expect Chaos to show up more in the game. And Maybe a Ycarnne or a Avatar. I so dearly want my Draigo to dispatch a Avatar.
   
Made in us
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

Reemule wrote:
I am thinking about Fielding my small detachment of GK more as I expect Chaos to show up more in the game. And Maybe a Ycarnne or a Avatar. I so dearly want my Draigo to dispatch a Avatar.

Hey, if Calgar can do it, Draigo should be able to as well.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 ClockworkZion wrote:
Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.

So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?

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On the Internet

 Dysartes wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.

So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?

At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.

So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?

At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.

...1 for BF, +1 for the Warlord - with you so far.

But 1 per 1,000,000 points in the army seems a little stingy, don't you think?

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I view one of the issues with grey knights is that they should never have attempted to make them a stand alone army. They should have been more like an Assassin type faction that you slot into another IOM army to help deal with psykers and demons. GW essentially put themselves in a corner by not having much room to fix them without making them marines plus one again.

The biggest issue is like most MEQ they end up paying for things that in game end up not mattering.
   
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On the Internet

 Dysartes wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.

So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?

At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.

...1 for BF, +1 for the Warlord - with you so far.

But 1 per 1,000,000 points in the army seems a little stingy, don't you think?

Sorry, typo from my phone. Each 1,000 points would be 1 CP.
   
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Iowa

Grey Knights just need their Psybolt ammo made into SIA.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sorry, typo from my phone. Each 1,000 points would be 1 CP.


Calculating my point total and my opponent's every turn sounds super exciting.

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On the Internet

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Sorry, typo from my phone. Each 1,000 points would be 1 CP.


Calculating my point total and my opponent's every turn sounds super exciting.

If AoS players can manage you can manage. Plus it's more balanced than our current mess.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Meanwhile, GK player won major tournament:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bi7x5j/pure_grey_knights_just_won_an_itc_major/

Must be some glitch in the matrix, I thought that was never supposed to happen?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I view one of the issues with grey knights is that they should never have attempted to make them a stand alone army. They should have been more like an Assassin type faction that you slot into another IOM army to help deal with psykers and demons. GW essentially put themselves in a corner by not having much room to fix them without making them marines plus one again.

No matter how many times that 4chan (lying) whine will be repeated, it will never be true. GK were never ""marines plus one"", they were perfectly viable, balanced army with their own strengths and weaknesses that could play anyone in 5th edition as equals. Alas, they were done by competent writer back then, not by that inept hack who destroyed the army by removing 60% of the units and wargear options in 7th edition. Incidentally proving whiners wrong, because most of the changes were their suggestions that were all shown to be wrong, bad and/or unworkable across the board, with not a single suggestion resulting in anything positive.

Really, all GK need is their 5th edition book back, complete will all the options, maybe with some mechanics being updated for 8th edition. Incidentally, these very same mechanics were good for the overall health for the game back then, countering some of the worst offenders (without nerfing them outright), forcing people to rethink their lists, instead of going for brainless top unit spam. If GK had the anti-plasma device at the start of 8th edition, say, we'd see much less annoying plasma spam, more varietly in lists - but we can't have that, because that would make them dreaded 'straw marines plus one', eh?
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 01:20:55


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I thought this belonged here.
Hitler Finds Out People Dislike the Grey Knights

   
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Hanoi, Vietnam.

 Smotejob wrote:
Literally no one:

GW: let's Nerf the Grey Knights.

Thanks GW.

This is penance for Matt Ward.
No, but in all seriousness, I don't think anyone would argue that Grey Knights aren't the bottom of the heap right now, and have been for most of the edition, and this can't have gone unnoticed by our new, more attentive lover Games Workshop. With a lot of the important issues put to rest by this last batch of FAQs, I think it's clear that the state of Grey Knights is now firmly at the forefront. As we've seen from Codex: Chaos Space Marines II, we now know that Games Workshop don't oppose revising codices in this edition. Here's hoping that Codex: Grey Knights is next.
   
 
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