Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
My personal list for orks
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.

He's already competitive, what do you mean by too expensive? Do you want to spam Warbosses?

- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.

AFAIK 90 Boyz is standard, not enough for you? It has nothing to do with Boyz being overcosted and everything to do with Battalions granting too many benefits IMO and I don't think 180 Boyz becoming the standard Ork list is good for anyone. I feel like Grots being spammed is at least better than them not being taken at all. I'd agree that it was a problem if people started taking less than 60 Boyz on average.

- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.

Expensive? Compared to what? He's 20 pts less expensive than a Cryptek with a canoptek cloak. Your change would make him better for green tide not worse, fitting three units within 3" of him is easy and will make him worth it for just supporting that, currently, he needs to support more elite units to be worth it. Could he go down 10 pts? Yeah it'd make him quite popular I believe, but 20 pts or your suggestion would force people to take him in every list I believe.
[spoiler]
- a runt herd per grot squad should be free.
- nobs are mostly ok. I would give 1 gretching free per 5 instead of charging 4pts.

Nothing should be free, you are essentially removing choice by making upgrades free, you are basically forced to take them. If the option is bad lower it to 1 or 2 pts, whatever, don't make it free.

- lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save

Another already competitive unit, do you want to take 3x15 or something? Putting 5+ saves on everything should increase their price, not the opposite.

- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?

12" auras are really rare in 8th, I don't think the banner needs to be 12" more than any of the other 6" auras in the game.

- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.

I feel like morale needs an entire overhaul, it doesn't feel reasonable to me the way it works. Something GW should think about along with plasma for 9th edition.

- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.

You'd need to drop the price of Trukks a trukkload if you want them to compete with the lower price of Lootas and Boyz.

- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.

That's definitely not the feeling I've had playing against them, but if you're buffing Boyz and not touching Mek Gunz then I suppose it makes sense in the world you're living in.

HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. For Orks is specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!

- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.

How many HQs are we talking about here? It shouldn't take too much out of their SM update schedule to print the two or three HQs they need.

I've never seen a Stompa IRL so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with that model compared to the Gorkanaut.
[/spoiler]

Fair enough, let's discuss. I am on the phone so I will not spend much time on the layout. Sorry for that.

-Warboss. How many warbosses have you see out of 1 with the mandatory killklaw. It is only taken because of that specific relic. It's 90pts for an aura of charging if advanced.
Mind that I specifically talk about the warboss on foot. Compare it to the warboss on bike and there you have my 10pts adjustment.

- Boys. I am yet to play more that 22boys this edition. I could fit another 30 to jump them around but no more. I am not a fan of greentide. At 6pts (2vs1 space marine) I feel is the right price. Actually, 6.5 could be more accurate but that can't happen. I don't expect grots to go away if boys drop to 6pts, because as you point out, batallions are a thing. During the index era they were 6 and they were not breaking the game.

- Painboy. I am gettimg the feeling that you only play against greentides. Maybe we could then agree to keep the bubble to 6" 5+++ and force the whole within condition? I never liked the conga lining concept. It is a mechanic the I think should be addressed. Actually, my intention is making it relevant for a wider range of units and less exploitable (which is from were the overcost comes in mu mind).

- lootas are in a weird design space righr now. They are an all out or nothing unit. A sink of CP. They can be powerful if buffed accordingly. I personally don't like that sort of ultracombos. Have you seen any loota mob out of a bad moon detachment? If the souble tap stratagem wouldn't exist you would hardly ever see them. In that sort of world, 15pts and 5+(as any ork elite should have as min -also tankbustas-) seem reasonable. Would you agree that the problem comes from the stratagem rather than the unit itself?

- rundherd and nobs. There are pleeeenty of free upgrades anywhere you look. Can't agree on your view on enforcement. Have you seen any runtherder in 8th? Any at all?

- Banner is not competitive right now. Yes, it could be fixed by changing the price but my suggestion was more "fluff like". Banners in general (not only the ork one) are meant to be seem from afar. It should be different than an aura generated by an individual. If 12" is too much, maybe 9"?

- killakans and morale. Fair enough.

- they used to be 35 pts back in the old days. That might be too much. 50pts could be a good pricing for them (bshoota included).

- Flyers and buggies. Just compare what the do with the new admech vehicles, or with the new SM toys. Have you seen buggies in any competitive list? Maybe a dragsta or a scrapjet which are IMO the best of them, but certainly not spammed.

- Mek guns are fine. I would agree on an increase on the smasha though as it shadows the kustom mega kannons.

- HQs I am talking about is a Mega armoured warboss (since when a mek can aford it but not a warboss?), a big mek that is not forced to take the SAG or a mega-armour (as there is no alternative or generic big mek). A warboss on bike as we had since...always (or a big mek). Etc. All those are Index options currently but have 0 support in the codex.

- Stompa, I know it can be controversial and down to the personal taste. I would encourage you to check the mini.

Cheers

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:


Likewise, why are you suggesting a points hike for Wraiths?

I didn't though?

Tomb Blades should probably not get a points increase. Otherwise Gauss immortals will continue to be the weaker choice.
All HQs should receive a price decrease, obviously.
Changing tesla still isn't really a nerf, as other units get to make more use of it instead of just Immortals + MWBD. As soon as your opponent brings something that's -1 to hit, or as soon as you advance, tesla suddenly becomes useless, especially if the unit is a vehicle, as they can't even use MWBD to compensate. That's not healthy design, imo.

Heavy 8 AP-1 D1 at 24"
That's more RoF than anything we have in our book, and you can take 5 of them in a min sized unit, iirc.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:


Cheers

No, I guess I haven't. It's always just the one with the klaw, either on bike or on foot. I suppose in his current incarnation he's more of a relic delivery mechanic than a character in his own right. I do feel like the advance and charge ability is pretty cool, the Necron FW character that does that costs 200 pts and only has +1 Sv and W over a 90 pt model. One thing I think is important is not making him so good that you just take Warbosses over Nobs, it's pretty tragic to me when I see that HQs relinquish their leadership position and have to go smash face because they're so much more efficient than their elite counterparts. HQs being able to smash face? Great! More pts efficient than elites? Bad!

30 Boyz in melee kill 13 Marines, 15 Marines kill 12 Boyz, that's with +1 from the first round of combat and +1 from chainsword. The smallest number of Boyz I can find in a recent top list is 30, the most is 120 and the average is around 90. Yes there are a tonne of Gretchin in those lists, that's an argument for nerfing them more than anything IMO. I'm not sure how I'd do that though and I don't think it's justified with the current level of performance by Orks, not unless you wanted to do something like 0,2 or 0,5 pts. If Battalions got nerfed I could see a buff to Boyz happening.

I think I've played one game against someone that did not use 90 Boyz backed up by 1-2 Weirdboys with Da Jump, maybe two games where one player had more than 90 for a true green tide and the other had them in Trukks because we were doing a casual game. A lot of auras would make more sense with entirely or wholly within x" wording instead of just within and I think for Painboys this change would make a lot more sense. Giving a 5++ to what would probably just be 1 unit and maybe a couple of characters would be perfectly fine. It's not just Boyz though, it's a pain shooting through Grots already I don't need them having a 5+++ as well.

You're totally right again. I'm not 100% on the 5+ Sv but Lootas almost certainly need a buff if you nerf shoot twice.

I don't know about comparing to the new SM vehicles, I think both of the neo-Land Raiders went up in pts with the new codex. I played once against the new buggies, I don't remember them doing anything unfair, I was talking about the Dakka Jet being good enough to not need a buff. It's so hard to figure out where GW is going with their balancing so it's hard to nail down how valuable a pt or CP is supposed to be. GW is probably finalizing their pts update for CA2019 soon, I certainly can't wait to see where they decide to take things if they want to maybe let things settle upon the SM change or immediately change things up even more. The thing I'm hoping the most for is a soup nerf, being a mono-faction faction I'm biased, but I'd be willing to accept a nerf to my multi-subfaction armies since those are kind of a gimmick anyway.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whoops, I meant tomb blades shouldn't get a points decrease. My fault there

You could allow MWBD to affect vehicles, but in practice its not going to be that useful due to distance. Unless you increase MWBD to 12", but then you'll have to increase Wave of Command for 18" because that's basically MWBD with extra range. Can't decrease cost of HQs if you are going that route.

I'm not talking about just flyers, I'm talking about -1 to hit from faction traits as well. I'd rather all tesla weapons can light up Alpha Legion or Alatoic infantry than just from 1 unit.

The bigger tesla weapons could do with a damage and RoF increase though, judging by the insane number of shots other armies can churn out from a single unit nowadays.
Just look at the reaper chaincannon - Heavy 8 AP-1 D1 at 24"
That's more RoF than anything we have in our book, and you can take 5 of them in a min sized unit, iirc.
The destructor should be Assault 6 D2, cannon maybe Assault 4.

That is true though that the MWBD + tesla trick is one of the few synergies we have. Its just that with how tesla works now, we can't really advance (thereby making a slow army even slower) without losing the tesla's main strength and those -1 to hit traits are a problem. You can help 1 unit with MWBD, but what about everything else? I don't like the idea of building an army around 1 buff on 1 unit. To me that's a weakness and dull design.
What if, in the event of Tesla being changed to work on nat 6s, MWBD also added +1 to wound rolls?

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:


Cheers

No, I guess I haven't. It's always just the one with the klaw, either on bike or on foot. I suppose in his current incarnation he's more of a relic delivery mechanic than a character in his own right. I do feel like the advance and charge ability is pretty cool, the Necron FW character that does that costs 200 pts and only has +1 Sv and W over a 90 pt model. One thing I think is important is not making him so good that you just take Warbosses over Nobs, it's pretty tragic to me when I see that HQs relinquish their leadership position and have to go smash face because they're so much more efficient than their elite counterparts. HQs being able to smash face? Great! More pts efficient than elites? Bad!

30 Boyz in melee kill 13 Marines, 15 Marines kill 12 Boyz, that's with +1 from the first round of combat and +1 from chainsword. The smallest number of Boyz I can find in a recent top list is 30, the most is 120 and the average is around 90. Yes there are a tonne of Gretchin in those lists, that's an argument for nerfing them more than anything IMO. I'm not sure how I'd do that though and I don't think it's justified with the current level of performance by Orks, not unless you wanted to do something like 0,2 or 0,5 pts. If Battalions got nerfed I could see a buff to Boyz happening.

I think I've played one game against someone that did not use 90 Boyz backed up by 1-2 Weirdboys with Da Jump, maybe two games where one player had more than 90 for a true green tide and the other had them in Trukks because we were doing a casual game. A lot of auras would make more sense with entirely or wholly within x" wording instead of just within and I think for Painboys this change would make a lot more sense. Giving a 5++ to what would probably just be 1 unit and maybe a couple of characters would be perfectly fine. It's not just Boyz though, it's a pain shooting through Grots already I don't need them having a 5+++ as well.

You're totally right again. I'm not 100% on the 5+ Sv but Lootas almost certainly need a buff if you nerf shoot twice.

I don't know about comparing to the new SM vehicles, I think both of the neo-Land Raiders went up in pts with the new codex. I played once against the new buggies, I don't remember them doing anything unfair, I was talking about the Dakka Jet being good enough to not need a buff. It's so hard to figure out where GW is going with their balancing so it's hard to nail down how valuable a pt or CP is supposed to be. GW is probably finalizing their pts update for CA2019 soon, I certainly can't wait to see where they decide to take things if they want to maybe let things settle upon the SM change or immediately change things up even more. The thing I'm hoping the most for is a soup nerf, being a mono-faction faction I'm biased, but I'd be willing to accept a nerf to my multi-subfaction armies since those are kind of a gimmick anyway.

FW units cost is so random that can hardly be used as baseline for comparison. I am afraid I don't know the crons characters at all. Clocking at 80pts, there is no way you may see warbosses spam. At most you would see 3 anyway. The aura is only valid for infantry or infantry and bikes if the warboss is a biker (which, again, is an index option).

When comparing orks to marines it can't be done in a full strength close combat. Boys will suffer fatalities during their way in. Marines will decimate them during several shooting phases.If you consider da jump, the cost of the weird boy needs to be factored in.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:


Cheers

No, I guess I haven't. It's always just the one with the klaw, either on bike or on foot. I suppose in his current incarnation he's more of a relic delivery mechanic than a character in his own right. I do feel like the advance and charge ability is pretty cool, the Necron FW character that does that costs 200 pts and only has +1 Sv and W over a 90 pt model. One thing I think is important is not making him so good that you just take Warbosses over Nobs, it's pretty tragic to me when I see that HQs relinquish their leadership position and have to go smash face because they're so much more efficient than their elite counterparts. HQs being able to smash face? Great! More pts efficient than elites? Bad!

30 Boyz in melee kill 13 Marines, 15 Marines kill 12 Boyz, that's with +1 from the first round of combat and +1 from chainsword. The smallest number of Boyz I can find in a recent top list is 30, the most is 120 and the average is around 90. Yes there are a tonne of Gretchin in those lists, that's an argument for nerfing them more than anything IMO. I'm not sure how I'd do that though and I don't think it's justified with the current level of performance by Orks, not unless you wanted to do something like 0,2 or 0,5 pts. If Battalions got nerfed I could see a buff to Boyz happening.

I think I've played one game against someone that did not use 90 Boyz backed up by 1-2 Weirdboys with Da Jump, maybe two games where one player had more than 90 for a true green tide and the other had them in Trukks because we were doing a casual game. A lot of auras would make more sense with entirely or wholly within x" wording instead of just within and I think for Painboys this change would make a lot more sense. Giving a 5++ to what would probably just be 1 unit and maybe a couple of characters would be perfectly fine. It's not just Boyz though, it's a pain shooting through Grots already I don't need them having a 5+++ as well.

You're totally right again. I'm not 100% on the 5+ Sv but Lootas almost certainly need a buff if you nerf shoot twice.

I don't know about comparing to the new SM vehicles, I think both of the neo-Land Raiders went up in pts with the new codex. I played once against the new buggies, I don't remember them doing anything unfair, I was talking about the Dakka Jet being good enough to not need a buff. It's so hard to figure out where GW is going with their balancing so it's hard to nail down how valuable a pt or CP is supposed to be. GW is probably finalizing their pts update for CA2019 soon, I certainly can't wait to see where they decide to take things if they want to maybe let things settle upon the SM change or immediately change things up even more. The thing I'm hoping the most for is a soup nerf, being a mono-faction faction I'm biased, but I'd be willing to accept a nerf to my multi-subfaction armies since those are kind of a gimmick anyway.

FW units cost is so random that can hardly be used as baseline for comparison. I am afraid I don't know the crons characters at all. Clocking at 80pts, there is no way you may see warbosses spam. At most you would see 3 anyway. The aura is only valid for infantry or infantry and bikes if the warboss is a biker (which, again, is an index option).

When comparing orks to marines it can't be done in a full strength close combat. Boys will suffer fatalities during their way in. Marines will decimate them during several shooting phases.If you consider da jump, the cost of the weird boy needs to be factored in.

The reason I brought it up is that a list with that FW character recently topped an event. In that list he adds 7" to charge range, you add 3,5 (4,5" with the right Kultur) to charge range with a Warboss, but what that player paid for this bonus is the same as what you pay for your entire character. I really don't want to see lists with 3 Warbosses and 0 Nobs, that makes 0 sense to my sensibilities.

I don't know why you think Marines are immune to shooting, consider AP and MWs which can render his 11 pt model just as vulnerable as your 7 pt model (12 pts for naughty Marines). Marines aren't winning the matchup currently and I don't know why they should do worse, in fact, I think they should do better. If bolter Marines aren't supposed to counter Boyz, then what is? Marines have the Sv, the T and they aren't paying for AP they're not using. From a rules perspective, Marines have everything going for them. So why should Orks beat up Tacticals even harder than they currently do?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Is up to 5, veterans 6, so that we have propper scaling with conscripts?

More usefull Hydra, it allready dropped in price heavily still sees rarely use.

FW stationary artillery should cost less then a Basilisk, not more.

Chimeras and a lot of other transports that do not gain the assault vehicle rule should as a whole drop 10 pts. Again in some vehicle cases.

Predator needs to be cheaper then a Vindicator with hb sponsons and pred ac.
Also the pred ac is just bad, btw why can't i put an hades ac into a pred?

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Is up to 5, veterans 6, so that we have propper scaling with conscripts?

More usefull Hydra, it allready dropped in price heavily still sees rarely use.

FW stationary artillery should cost less then a Basilisk, not more.

Chimeras and a lot of other transports that do not gain the assault vehicle rule should as a whole drop 10 pts. Again in some vehicle cases.

Predator needs to be cheaper then a Vindicator with hb sponsons and pred ac.
Also the pred ac is just bad, btw why can't i put an hades ac into a pred?

If veterans are at 6 I wouldn't object to giving them a S4 lasgun if they're still stuck in the elites roll.

Hydra's need to drop their minus -1 to hit against non-fly units. It's no longer a swing unit at that point since it's no longer hamstrung against most units and still valuable against fly. Adding an uparmored variant may help too. I wouldnt mind vehicles ignoring the -1 for moving with a heavy weapon.

I feel like most of the standard autocannons cannons could use 1 more shot and most heavy bolters should be 4.