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Gadzilla666 wrote:
Storm shields should go up. 10 points for a 3+ invul? Anyone else sick of pouring tons of high ap wounds into terminators/custodes/captains and getting nothing? Also in regards to al remember if we get universal legion traits that means they apply to vehicles including flyers which basically turns them into aloitac.

2 pts/model for anything but characters.

 vict0988 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Storm shields should go up. 10 points for a 3+ invul? Anyone else sick of pouring tons of high ap wounds into terminators/custodes/captains and getting nothing? Also in regards to al remember if we get universal legion traits that means they apply to vehicles including flyers which basically turns them into aloitac.

2 pts/model for anything but characters.

THat ain't making the sitauation better pal.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Storm shields should go up. 10 points for a 3+ invul? Anyone else sick of pouring tons of high ap wounds into terminators/custodes/captains and getting nothing? Also in regards to al remember if we get universal legion traits that means they apply to vehicles including flyers which basically turns them into aloitac.

2 pts/model for anything but characters.

THat ain't making the sitauation better pal.

I mean only vets can take them and while DW vets were like discovering gold they're still only 1W models

 fraser1191 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Storm shields should go up. 10 points for a 3+ invul? Anyone else sick of pouring tons of high ap wounds into terminators/custodes/captains and getting nothing? Also in regards to al remember if we get universal legion traits that means they apply to vehicles including flyers which basically turns them into aloitac.

2 pts/model for anything but characters.

THat ain't making the sitauation better pal.

I mean only vets can take them and while DW vets were like discovering gold they're still only 1W models

I wasn't trying to make it better, DW Veterans with shields would be scary... If it wasn't for the fact I spam AP0. Terminators also get them. I'm not sure how far up they can go, my bookmark for a good nerf is something that makes as few people as possible sell their models or rip them apart and I'd like to see storm shields go up, but I'm not sure how much up they can go before people just say f-it, I'll see if I can't find cover and then it won't even matter most of the time. For 1W 3+ Sv models it's probably between 3-5 pts, Terminators 5-10 pts. There's the problem of storm shields previously having been so expensive that you'd usually never see a squad fully equipped with them other than TH SS Terminators or Thunderwolves, now it suddenly has become an option to not just equip 1/5 Veterans with a storm shield for the odd lascannon or plasma gun, but equip 5/5 because it'll come up often enough that even saving pts by only equipping 3/5 or 4/5 seems like a mistake.

Whilst it was nice to see Predators drop in price in the new C:SM. I still recon they're quite overpriced...

Compared to similar options they just seem to offer less capability for more cost... I wouldn't call these alternatives broken to start with which suggests the problem is with the Predator.

The Vindicator is way cheaper, T8, for the trade off of d6 Str 10 hits and 24" range...
Contemptor Mortis are cheaper, better at hitting, have an invulnerable save for the trade off of being slightly slower and having 1 less W.... (or being slightly more expensive and having an additional wound, an invulnerale and fnp)
Razorbacks only offer a turret weapon, have 1 less wound, can transport 6 guys and are still 15 pts less...

For other armies I agree that Orks some how seem just a little to expensive, that the VX-8 suits just aren't working and that the game would be better without staking -1s to hit.

As for the marine SS spam it's tricky. To expensive and TH+SS aren't worth it, however the ability for some units to pick them as they choose is having unintended side effects...

I think Astra Militarum will still be pretty strong with 5 point per model guardsmen, and would help level them against other hordes.

Sorry I'm a filthy traitor so I don't always get loyalist rules right. And no that isn't better. It's apparently 7 points for non character custodes like they weren't already hard enough to kill lol. Seriously though that's pretty cheap for something that tough to start with.

For necrons :

warriors down to 10 points
Scarabs moved to troops (Fast attack is a bit congested, and scarabs are supposed to be ubiquitous)
Monolith down to 250 OR be able to deploy units on arrival
Blasters rapid fire 2
Flayed Ones down to 12
Deathmarks down to 15
Technomancer aura increased to 6"
Canoptek cloak aura increased to 6"
Chronometron aura increased to 6"
Single use restriction on Resurrection orb removed
Death Ray changed to assault (flyers should never have to suffer penalties for firing their weapons. Giving heavy weapons to a unit that HAS to move is gak design. This goes for everything, not just necron flyers)
Tesla now procs on an unmodified roll of a 6. So no more MWBD shenanigans. Bad for tesla immortals, better for everything else.
Tomblades up to 18 to try to make gauss immortals a little more appealing.

Destroyers should probably be nerfed, but right now they are the only real damage source for necrons, especially against multi-wound targets. If the necrons had other damage options then maybe a nerf would be in order.
Giving immortals weapon options might be a solution, or increase Extermination Protocols to 2CP.

Orks -
Spanners and Nob unit upgrades have their own points values, because right now it is pretty dumb
Squiggy buggy given indirect fire to make it useful for once
-1 to hit on the killa klaw, because its such a strong relic. This is only really a problem because relics are "free"
Lootas down to 15
Burnas changed to D6
Scrapjet increased to 100, because its pretty good
Deathtrike given breakin' 'eads and S6. You know, make it an actual warboss on a trike instead of a glorified biker nob.

Tyranids -

Impaler cannon down to 24" range. Because hiding in a corner with 6 hive guard behind a solid wall and firing 12 S8 AP-2 D3 shots at BS3+, 24 shots with 2CP at anything within 36" is pretty bs. I don't care if its expensive, its still aggravating to play against with hardly any counter play. It would also probably make shockcannons a little more appealing.
Either that, or give everyone indirect fire shenanigans. Then at least one can actually attack them.

Maybe increase venom cannon damage to D3 and HVC to D6. Apparently nids have problems with heavy armor. That seems to be a fair way for them to deal with it without having to deal with Ignore LoS nonsense.

Ice_can wrote:

Deathhex can safely be cast from behind a wall of screening unit's at distance, while nullzone being an aura, it's range of 6 inches does make it an almost guaranteed trade of librarian for whatever you wanted to nullzone. I can see a justification for diffrences in cast value.

Death hex only effects one target where as nullzone can render severs units vulnerable. Plus let's face it, if you're using either power there's something nice lined up to lay the hurt on the targets. I would take nullzone going back up to 8. It's not a bad thing if removing invuls happens less than 50% of the time. Librarians before spells have a better rule set than sorcerers. Giving them a better powers set it a bit insulting.

Renegades and heretics changes :

Covenants:


Hq:


Elites


Troops:


Assault:


Heavy support :

Finally release a beta dex like SoB with following contents.

Finally gain access to defiler and decimator.
Reimplement plague zombies.
Reimplement appostate priest.
Reimplement renegade veteran.
Reimplement demagogue devotions.

On the topic of SS cost. I have only played SW, and SS are available for some HQ and thunderwolves for 10pts, and wolf guard and wulfen for 2pts. thunderwolves are expensive even without SS, and they are not that good. I understand the argument about wolf guard ( and equivilent), but they are only 1 wound models. Wulfen are expensive but they are a great unit, I would rather have cheaper (like 18pts) wulfen who can't take TH/SS then have them rise in cost.

Wish listing: Fenrisian wolves 5~6pts, Cyber wolves 10pts, cheaper or extra wounds for thunder wolves (balance with SS?). Honestly, these 3 unique units (in the Imperium that I know of) have little support in the SW codex. only 2 HQ can provide leadership bonus, not even fearless, the second provides a extra attack. Fenrisian/Cyber wolves also do not have any stratagems to support them as well.

Other then wolves just carry over the point cost changes made to SM, to DA, BA, and SW.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Impaler cannon down to 24" range. Because hiding in a corner with 6 hive guard behind a solid wall and firing 12 S8 AP-2 D3 shots at BS3+, 24 shots with 2CP at anything within 36" is pretty bs. I don't care if its expensive, its still aggravating to play against with hardly any counter play. It would also probably make shockcannons a little more appealing.
Either that, or give everyone indirect fire shenanigans. Then at least one can actually attack them.

This. This so much. A player almost scummed his way to winning a escalation league by spamming this bull gak WAAC strat as soon as he had the points, as he quickly realised none of us could effectively counter it. Add in is huge blobs of devilgsunts for obnoxious a mounts of Dakka and it was hell.

Got his comeuppance though, as the local guard player (who joined late) heard of his shenanigans, and proceeded to hit him with 3 punisher tank commanders, 3 Wyvern suppression tanks and 3 basalisks. He list that game so badly, that he physically couldn't get first place even if he got max points in the rest of his games to play.

He was salty. We all laughed.

Yeah, as I said, the only real way to deal with them is to take long range indirect fire of your own. And that's gak design.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as I said, the only real way to deal with them is to take long range indirect fire of your own. And that's gak design.

Technically you don't, if indirect fire would be priced appropriatly for all units.
And Hive guard ain't a unit priced propperly

Personally would like to see more rules like the new Space Marines have that reward building an army from one codex. For Tyranids I would like to see additional attacks and WS3+ on our CC oriented monstrous creatures. Some things like Trygons and Hive Tyrants could use a slight points drop.

snakezenn2 wrote:
Personally would like to see more rules like the new Space Marines have that reward building an army from one codex. For Tyranids I would like to see additional attacks and WS3+ on our CC oriented monstrous creatures. Some things like Trygons and Hive Tyrants could use a slight points drop.

Also true, infact a lot of codices have a lot of these units.
Adding mono buffs and lowering some points on rarely seen units might be enough to make then fieldable.

That reminds me, flat out price cut of 10 pts on all non Lord discordant daemon engines.

Just found out veterans are the same cost as chosen with the option of a 3+ invul for 2 points. Either storm shields should go up or chosen should come down. And helforged super heavys with the steel behemoth rules should be erated to be able to move and not get -1 to hit with heavy weapons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For necrons :

warriors down to 10 points
Scarabs moved to troops (Fast attack is a bit congested, and scarabs are supposed to be ubiquitous)
Monolith down to 250 OR be able to deploy units on arrival
Blasters rapid fire 2
Flayed Ones down to 12
Deathmarks down to 15
Technomancer aura increased to 6"
Canoptek cloak aura increased to 6"
Chronometron aura increased to 6"
Single use restriction on Resurrection orb removed
Death Ray changed to assault (flyers should never have to suffer penalties for firing their weapons. Giving heavy weapons to a unit that HAS to move is gak design. This goes for everything, not just necron flyers)
Tesla now procs on an unmodified roll of a 6. So no more MWBD shenanigans. Bad for tesla immortals, better for everything else.
Tomblades up to 18 to try to make gauss immortals a little more appealing.

Destroyers should probably be nerfed, but right now they are the only real damage source for necrons, especially against multi-wound targets. If the necrons had other damage options then maybe a nerf would be in order.
Giving immortals weapon options might be a solution, or increase Extermination Protocols to 2CP.

All of those buffs to Necrons would be undone by changing Tesla to natural 6s. People yapper on about Destroyers, but Tesla is our damage output. Nerfing Tesla would cripple the book, which is already one of the worst out there. Nerfing Tesla wouldn't make everything else better, it'd just make tesla crap. That doesn't fix the issues with the rest of our units/weapon options.

Even if you left tesla alone and gave us all the buffs you listed, we'd still be ass tier. We need a redesign/new book. We certainly don't need nerfs of any kind (other than Extermination Protocols to 2CP though obvs)

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Spoiler:

For necrons :

warriors down to 10 points
Scarabs moved to troops (Fast attack is a bit congested, and scarabs are supposed to be ubiquitous)
Monolith down to 250 OR be able to deploy units on arrival
Blasters rapid fire 2
Flayed Ones down to 12
Deathmarks down to 15
Technomancer aura increased to 6"
Canoptek cloak aura increased to 6"
Chronometron aura increased to 6"
Single use restriction on Resurrection orb removed
Death Ray changed to assault (flyers should never have to suffer penalties for firing their weapons. Giving heavy weapons to a unit that HAS to move is gak design. This goes for everything, not just necron flyers)
Tesla now procs on an unmodified roll of a 6. So no more MWBD shenanigans. Bad for tesla immortals, better for everything else.
Tomblades up to 18 to try to make gauss immortals a little more appealing.

Destroyers should probably be nerfed, but right now they are the only real damage source for necrons, especially against multi-wound targets. If the necrons had other damage options then maybe a nerf would be in order.
Giving immortals weapon options might be a solution, or increase Extermination Protocols to 2CP.

All of those buffs to Necrons would be undone by changing Tesla to natural 6s. People yapper on about Destroyers, but Tesla is our damage output. Nerfing Tesla would cripple the book, which is already one of the worst out there. Nerfing Tesla wouldn't make everything else better, it'd just make tesla crap. That doesn't fix the issues with the rest of our units/weapon options.

Even if you left tesla alone and gave us all the buffs you listed, we'd still be ass tier. We need a redesign/new book. We certainly don't need nerfs of any kind (other than Extermination Protocols to 2CP though obvs)

Tesla would become better against units that are -1/-2/-3 to hit, it'd be less of a nerf and more of a balancing between being awesome and trash at different times, in general, a nerf, yes, but it'd also be nice in some circumstances. Necrons are ok ATM, 50% win-rate in competitive, semi-regular top spots in tournaments. If Necrons don't get any kind of nerfs, then it becomes a lot harder to justify nerfs for other factions and I personally would love to see nerfs to soup. Ass tier is a strong word for middle of the line.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For necrons :

warriors down to 10 points
Scarabs moved to troops (Fast attack is a bit congested, and scarabs are supposed to be ubiquitous)
Monolith down to 250 OR be able to deploy units on arrival
Blasters rapid fire 2
Flayed Ones down to 12
Deathmarks down to 15
Technomancer aura increased to 6"
Canoptek cloak aura increased to 6"
Chronometron aura increased to 6"
Single use restriction on Resurrection orb removed
Death Ray changed to assault (flyers should never have to suffer penalties for firing their weapons. Giving heavy weapons to a unit that HAS to move is gak design. This goes for everything, not just necron flyers)
Tesla now procs on an unmodified roll of a 6. So no more MWBD shenanigans. Bad for tesla immortals, better for everything else.
Tomblades up to 18 to try to make gauss immortals a little more appealing.

Destroyers should probably be nerfed, but right now they are the only real damage source for necrons, especially against multi-wound targets. If the necrons had other damage options then maybe a nerf would be in order.
Giving immortals weapon options might be a solution, or increase Extermination Protocols to 2CP.

All of those buffs to Necrons would be undone by changing Tesla to natural 6s. People yapper on about Destroyers, but Tesla is our damage output. Nerfing Tesla would cripple the book, which is already one of the worst out there. Nerfing Tesla wouldn't make everything else better, it'd just make tesla crap. That doesn't fix the issues with the rest of our units/weapon options.

Even if you left tesla alone and gave us all the buffs you listed, we'd still be ass tier. We need a redesign/new book. We certainly don't need nerfs of any kind (other than Extermination Protocols to 2CP though obvs)

Its not going to be that crippling of a nerf. All it really does is remove reliance on MWBD. This change will increase the overall usefulness of tesla, not reduce it.
Vehicles with tesla would now be more useful, as they would never lose tesla
You can now advance at will with tesla without applying the buff everytime, thereby increasing the mobility of the army while still maintaining damage output.
Hit penalties from enemies will no longer make you lose tesla, thereby increasing damage output across the board for all units in such cases. Unless you mean to tell me 1 unit proccing on 6s with the MWBD buff is stronger than everyone proccing tesla without MWBD

Its not as dire as you make it out to be, and besides, if the army really does rely on a single buff on a single unit to get some meaningful damage output, then you might as well rework everything, because that's gak design.

Its not as dire as you make it out to be, and besides, if the army really does rely on a single buff on a single unit to get some meaningful damage output, then you might as well rework everything, because that's gak design.

Why though, i thought relying on a specific unit / weapon / stratagem is great design.

*cries in cacophony.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Its not as dire as you make it out to be, and besides, if the army really does rely on a single buff on a single unit to get some meaningful damage output, then you might as well rework everything, because that's gak design.

Why though, i thought relying on a specific unit / weapon / stratagem is great design.

*cries in cacophony.

Fortunately, necrons aren't quite in that spot as they do have DDA and destroyers. Its not great, but its not terrible.
Removing reliance on MWBD and making tesla more reliable across the board would increase army health and probably increase damage output overall.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Its not as dire as you make it out to be, and besides, if the army really does rely on a single buff on a single unit to get some meaningful damage output, then you might as well rework everything, because that's gak design.

Why though, i thought relying on a specific unit / weapon / stratagem is great design.

*cries in cacophony.

Fortunately, necrons aren't quite in that spot as they do have DDA and destroyers. Its not great, but its not terrible.
Removing reliance on MWBD and making tesla more reliable across the board would increase army health and probably increase damage output overall.

Quite possibly, cut down some costs or finally fix the one or other rule and maybee you crons would show up more.

My personal list for orks

HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. For Orks is specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!

-Ghazzy should be around 200pts with current rules.
-Big Meks have me puzzled. I would like them to be something more than a platform for the shock or the KFF. The big mekaniak doesn't cut it.
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.
- Deffkilla needs S6 base and more weapon options.

- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.

- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.

- a runt herd per grot squad should be free.

- burnas need a 5+save and 1d6 flamer and a new rule for pyromaniak. My proposal would be to allow them to shoot with a second profile 1d3 f5 -1 range 12" (imagine a twist of a nozzle to concenrrate the "fire").

- tankbustas and lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save
- nobs are mostly ok. I would give 1 gretching free per 5 instead of charging 4pts.


- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?

- nobs in warbikes are waaay too expensive. With multiple damage weapons they will never be as resilient as they used to be. Therefore, take a nob price (14) and add a bike (approx 13pts) and there you go. 27pts a nob before additional equipment.

- bikes down to 19-20. Or give them the billowing cloud rule back. Maybe instead of -1 to hit as the strat, give them a +1 armour if moved to get them closer to every other bike in the game (as 3+ save). Apply to biker nobs as well.

- reduce 20% buggies pts. The squigbuggy however needs a rule rewrite. It will not work even if the cost is halved.

- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.

- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.

- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.

- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.

- mek shop. If a mek is within 3" the mek can use the workshop to customize a unit within 3". If so, apply as today's iteration but not forgoing any action as currently. If it is used by a mek, the upgrades are obtained with a 4+ instead of a 6+. If by a big mek, upgrades at 2+. If a 1 is rolled, the model suffers d3 mortal wounds as the "repair" has been a disaster.

Cheers

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
My personal list for orks
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.

He's already competitive, what do you mean by too expensive? Do you want to spam Warbosses?

- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.

AFAIK 90 Boyz is standard, not enough for you? It has nothing to do with Boyz being overcosted and everything to do with Battalions granting too many benefits IMO and I don't think 180 Boyz becoming the standard Ork list is good for anyone. I feel like Grots being spammed is at least better than them not being taken at all. I'd agree that it was a problem if people started taking less than 60 Boyz on average.

- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.

Expensive? Compared to what? He's 20 pts less expensive than a Cryptek with a canoptek cloak. Your change would make him better for green tide not worse, fitting three units within 3" of him is easy and will make him worth it for just supporting that, currently, he needs to support more elite units to be worth it. Could he go down 10 pts? Yeah it'd make him quite popular I believe, but 20 pts or your suggestion would force people to take him in every list I believe.

Nothing should be free, you are essentially removing choice by making upgrades free, you are basically forced to take them. If the option is bad lower it to 1 or 2 pts, whatever, don't make it free.

- lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save

Another already competitive unit, do you want to take 3x15 or something? Putting 5+ saves on everything should increase their price, not the opposite.

- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?

12" auras are really rare in 8th, I don't think the banner needs to be 12" more than any of the other 6" auras in the game.

- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.

I feel like morale needs an entire overhaul, it doesn't feel reasonable to me the way it works. Something GW should think about along with plasma for 9th edition.

- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.

You'd need to drop the price of Trukks a trukkload if you want them to compete with the lower price of Lootas and Boyz.

- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.

That's definitely not the feeling I've had playing against them, but if you're buffing Boyz and not touching Mek Gunz then I suppose it makes sense in the world you're living in.

HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. For Orks is specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!

- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.

How many HQs are we talking about here? It shouldn't take too much out of their SM update schedule to print the two or three HQs they need.

I've never seen a Stompa IRL so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with that model compared to the Gorkanaut.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
My personal list for orks
-Warboss is 10pts too expensive.

He's already competitive, what do you mean by too expensive? Do you want to spam Warbosses?

- boys back to 6 pts. As it stands right now, the backbone of most armies is composed by a green tide of...grot. Yes, grot, not orks.

AFAIK 90 Boyz is standard, not enough for you? It has nothing to do with Boyz being overcosted and everything to do with Battalions granting too many benefits IMO and I don't think 180 Boyz becoming the standard Ork list is good for anyone. I feel like Grots being spammed is at least better than them not being taken at all. I'd agree that it was a problem if people started taking less than 60 Boyz on average.

- painboy/doks concept is badly implemented. It is so expensive because the bubble can easily be extended to a large number of units. As a concept, I believe it would less exploitable and more efficient if the bubble was reduced to 3" and the save increased to 5+. It has a double purpose, make it useful for elite units and less exploitable for green tides so it can be costed appropriately. That way it could potentially fit in more lists.

Expensive? Compared to what? He's 20 pts less expensive than a Cryptek with a canoptek cloak. Your change would make him better for green tide not worse, fitting three units within 3" of him is easy and will make him worth it for just supporting that, currently, he needs to support more elite units to be worth it. Could he go down 10 pts? Yeah it'd make him quite popular I believe, but 20 pts or your suggestion would force people to take him in every list I believe.

Spoiler:

- a runt herd per grot squad should be free.
- nobs are mostly ok. I would give 1 gretching free per 5 instead of charging 4pts.

Nothing should be free, you are essentially removing choice by making upgrades free, you are basically forced to take them. If the option is bad lower it to 1 or 2 pts, whatever, don't make it free.

- lootas down to 15pts and 5+ save

Another already competitive unit, do you want to take 3x15 or something? Putting 5+ saves on everything should increase their price, not the opposite.

- nob waagh banner is another bubble that I would change. Increase range and reduce effect. A dok needs to be close to heal a patient but a banner can be seen from afar. Maybe a 12" bubble with an extra attack on the charge only?

12" auras are really rare in 8th, I don't think the banner needs to be 12" more than any of the other 6" auras in the game.

- killa kans needs to be able to deal with moral somehow. Shooting weapons need to double the shots to be worth anything on them.

I feel like morale needs an entire overhaul, it doesn't feel reasonable to me the way it works. Something GW should think about along with plasma for 9th edition.

- trukk needs officially to have more weapons back. I am looking at you rokkits. Drop price a bit.

You'd need to drop the price of Trukks a trukkload if you want them to compete with the lower price of Lootas and Boyz.

- fliers in general suffer from the same as buggies. 20% too expensive.

That's definitely not the feeling I've had playing against them, but if you're buffing Boyz and not touching Mek Gunz then I suppose it makes sense in the world you're living in.

HQ real problem is the "no model no rules" policy. For Orks is specially painful even from the lore prespective. Looting is embedded in the Ork DNA, like...literally!

- Stompa... It maybe controversial but I would stop production and remove it from the codex. Model is not up to the current quality standard.

How many HQs are we talking about here? It shouldn't take too much out of their SM update schedule to print the two or three HQs they need.

I've never seen a Stompa IRL so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with that model compared to the Gorkanaut.

Fair enough, let's discuss. I am on the phone so I will not spend much time on the layout. Sorry for that.

-Warboss. How many warbosses have you see out of 1 with the mandatory killklaw. It is only taken because of that specific relic. It's 90pts for an aura of charging if advanced.
Mind that I specifically talk about the warboss on foot. Compare it to the warboss on bike and there you have my 10pts adjustment.

- Boys. I am yet to play more that 22boys this edition. I could fit another 30 to jump them around but no more. I am not a fan of greentide. At 6pts (2vs1 space marine) I feel is the right price. Actually, 6.5 could be more accurate but that can't happen. I don't expect grots to go away if boys drop to 6pts, because as you point out, batallions are a thing. During the index era they were 6 and they were not breaking the game.

- Painboy. I am gettimg the feeling that you only play against greentides. Maybe we could then agree to keep the bubble to 6" 5+++ and force the whole within condition? I never liked the conga lining concept. It is a mechanic the I think should be addressed. Actually, my intention is making it relevant for a wider range of units and less exploitable (which is from were the overcost comes in mu mind).

- lootas are in a weird design space righr now. They are an all out or nothing unit. A sink of CP. They can be powerful if buffed accordingly. I personally don't like that sort of ultracombos. Have you seen any loota mob out of a bad moon detachment? If the souble tap stratagem wouldn't exist you would hardly ever see them. In that sort of world, 15pts and 5+(as any ork elite should have as min -also tankbustas-) seem reasonable. Would you agree that the problem comes from the stratagem rather than the unit itself?


- rundherd and nobs. There are pleeeenty of free upgrades anywhere you look. Can't agree on your view on enforcement. Have you seen any runtherder in 8th? Any at all?

- Banner is not competitive right now. Yes, it could be fixed by changing the price but my suggestion was more "fluff like". Banners in general (not only the ork one) are meant to be seem from afar. It should be different than an aura generated by an individual. If 12" is too much, maybe 9"?

- killakans and morale. Fair enough.

- they used to be 35 pts back in the old days. That might be too much. 50pts could be a good pricing for them (bshoota included).

- Flyers and buggies. Just compare what the do with the new admech vehicles, or with the new SM toys. Have you seen buggies in any competitive list? Maybe a dragsta or a scrapjet which are IMO the best of them, but certainly not spammed.

- Mek guns are fine. I would agree on an increase on the smasha though as it shadows the kustom mega kannons.

- HQs I am talking about is a Mega armoured warboss (since when a mek can aford it but not a warboss?), a big mek that is not forced to take the SAG or a mega-armour (as there is no alternative or generic big mek). A warboss on bike as we had since...always (or a big mek). Etc. All those are Index options currently but have 0 support in the codex.

- Stompa, I know it can be controversial and down to the personal taste. I would encourage you to check the mini.

Cheers

Hopefully we'll see MAWB and generic big meks if GW ever gets around to releasing Ork HQ options in plastic.

Maybe runtherds being moved from elite to be a part of a grot squad? They are already kind of weird in that they can only be taken if you take grots, they don't take up slots and they only really exist to buff grots. You might as well make them a squad upgrade for grots, like boss nobs are for boys.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hopefully we'll see MAWB and generic big meks if GW ever gets around to releasing Ork HQ options in plastic.

Maybe runtherds being moved from elite to be a part of a grot squad? They are already kind of weird in that they can only be taken if you take grots, they don't take up slots and they only really exist to buff grots. You might as well make them a squad upgrade for grots, like boss nobs are for boys.

at 30 CHF a pop?
And in monopose so hard that you can't even kitbash with massive operation like planning?

As for runtherds, considering they were once part of the unit propper....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Its not as dire as you make it out to be, and besides, if the army really does rely on a single buff on a single unit to get some meaningful damage output, then you might as well rework everything, because that's gak design.

It kinda is though. The buffs you noted don't bring the other units up to nearly to same level that Tesla Immortal are at now. And our HQs are already an enormous tax, nerfing MWBD just makes that even worse.

I agree, everything does need a rework because we do have gak design. But since we're not going to get that in CA, nerfing one of our few good units is not the answer. Tesla Immortals aren't even close to broken, they're just good. They're still footslogging marines, they still die in a stiff breeze and they're slow to mobilise.

Likewise, why are you suggesting a points hike for Wraiths? They're good, but the amount of of MW output in the meta means they're already not getting used. A points hike will kill them, especially if you drop the points on destroyers. Outside of extermination protocols, nothing in the necron book needs nerfing. Randomly cranking the points up on things like the DDA, which is already super swingy, is pointless (especially as it just counteracts the small savings made elsewhere.

My CA wishlist:

Immortals: leave as is, but make Gauss Blasters cheaper.
Warriors: 10 pts (-1pt)
Monolith: Like another 100 points off, and even then I doubt it sees much play.
Destroyers: down to 40, extermination protocols up to 2cp (30 points is too cheap, you'd just see 18 in every list)
Tomb blades: a couple of point shaved off would be nice. They're great on paper, but the abundance of D2 weaponry hurts them.
C'tan: all of them need a drop, they're basically impossible to make their points back with.
Flayed ones: down to 11/12pts (they're warriors with more attacks but without a gun and DS, not worth a huge amount more per model).
Lychguard: realistically I think they need another wound, but a 2pt drop would be a good stopgap.
Cryptek: down to 45-50 pts. Leave his wargear costs alone.
Wraiths: Leave them alone, drop the price of their upgrades.
T Vault: Down to 510 ish.
Ghost Ark: drop by 10 pts.
Scarabs: it'd be nice if they went to troops, but we wont get that in CA. pts are fine atm.
Spyders: god knows, half their cost tbh. Only way they'll see play.

And fix our god damned transports.

IanVanCheese wrote:


Likewise, why are you suggesting a points hike for Wraiths?

I didn't though?

Tomb Blades should probably not get a points increase. Otherwise Gauss immortals will continue to be the weaker choice.
All HQs should receive a price decrease, obviously.
Changing tesla still isn't really a nerf, as other units get to make more use of it instead of just Immortals + MWBD. As soon as your opponent brings something that's -1 to hit, or as soon as you advance, tesla suddenly becomes useless, especially if the unit is a vehicle, as they can't even use MWBD to compensate. That's not healthy design, imo.

And fix our god damned transports.

You see, that is something most armies could get behind