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I don't think the thing is about beautiful or not beautiful, that's subjective. Beautiful women (or men) look angry when they are angry, and this new Lelith is indeed angry.

All Wyches are supposed to be beautiful, even if Lelith is the most, but that doesn't change that they are in the middle of a death battle vs their enemies.
Lelith, when you play her ingame, is not in the arena trying to seduce the spectators, she's in the middle of the war. She's one of the best duelists in the galaxy, but that's just context, not the real situation of a wh40k battle.

Also she changed in the fluff, after she beat Yvraine and joined her cause, maybe she's just more emotional than before.

As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

 Denegaar wrote:
I don't think the thing is about beautiful or not beautiful, that's subjective. Beautiful women (or men) look angry when they are angry, and this new Lelith is indeed angry.

All Wyches are supposed to be beautiful, even if Lelith is the most, but that doesn't change that they are in the middle of a death battle vs their enemies.
Lelith, when you play her ingame, is not in the arena trying to seduce the spectators, she's in the middle of the war. She's one of the best duelists in the galaxy, but that's just context, not the real situation of a wh40k battle.

Also she changed in the fluff, after she beat Yvraine and joined her cause, maybe she's just more emotional than before.

If shes not in the arena why is she not wearing shoes? Presumably the arenas are flat sand for the most part. The battlefield is covered in debris and wreckage. Maybe shes angry cause she jabbed her foot on those thorns on her base.

 Horla wrote:
As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

Blood of the Phoenix (Drukhari vs Craftworlds) had a Campaign Book included. I guess this one will have it too.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Karol wrote:

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Dark eldar are elves in a sci-fi universe. And I've never seen muscular elves, let alone females.

I second those ones who don't like the model's legs. I can accept the face, which isn't actually bad at all IMHO, but the legs are definitely too thick for a character that is supposed to be super fast thanks to her inhuman reflexes. Lelith has nothing to do with wrestlers or MMA fighters.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Have you confused Eldar with Space Marines here?

 Da Boss wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Have you confused Eldar with Space Marines here?

Have you ever paid attention to Eldar lore or other Eldar models that show a lot of skin?

A baseline space elf is taller, stronger and more well-defined musculature wise than most humans. And this is before being an Aspect Warrior or a Wych or using Psychic amplification of any sort. They're not as bulky as an Astartes or Ork of course, but they're still fething strong and have a lot of lean muscle.

Karol wrote:

Marin 794881 11014922 wrote:
Naa, her legs and body is to thick, she is thicker than the sister with power armor. Old model was also ripped without being thick.

Friend you are a bulgarian. Don't you remember how female wrestlers or female weight lifters look like, or even MMA fighter. Anyone who thinks she is too big and too squat looking, hasn't seen much female contact sports. And dark eldar are suppose to be even more buff then human, with no fat and super muscle just like orcs.

Are you comparing humans with fantasy space race ?
There is no reason to believe aeldar and human muscles are the some and need the some quantity. Aeldar bones are much lighter and thinner and that means Lilith muscles are probably 2x bigger than space marine.
Also aeldar fighting style is dependent on speed and not MMA style trading blows and wrestling, so your comparisons is pointless. This Lilith could probably suplex Gulliman.

Marin 794881 11014953 wrote:

Are you comparing humans with fantasy space race ?

Considering the esthetics of the model are judged by humans yes. People say she is fat and too muscular. I go to , well not right now, to a sports school and I can tell you there is nothing out of ordinary with her size. now if she was lifting up an outrider bike and overhead throwing it, without any sort of augumentation or force field or magic helping, there would be problems. But right now the model seems good to me. The hair is plastic level of ugly though. I don't know what it is with GW models and hair. The one I have seen made in metal or resin have a good natural, or maybe I should call it organic, look to it, the plastic hair on GW models makes the models look worse in majority of times. And in all times when it looks good or okey GW slaps some horns or something on the model to make it sure the whole thing looks ugly.

This Lilith could probably suplex Gulliman.

to paraphrase a man much smarter then me, give me a big enough leaver and I will suplex a humanoid the size of Gulliman.

Old, it's kinda strange because if you look at some of the new hedonite female sculpts it makes the problems even more obvious. The new model looks like a butch human. The model doesn't sell me onto her story as one of the most graceful and deadliest combatants in the galaxy if you compare the new model with her old artwork, model and lore.

Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

They're not as bulky as an Astartes or Ork of course, but they're still fething strong and have a lot of lean muscle

Exactly- LEAN MUSCLE. Like the old model.

I picked the old one but it’s not even based on looks for me. It’s based on the fact that we FINALLY get a non-marine Xenos release, and it ends up being a model literally NO ONE was asking for from a codex that has done nothing but loose units since 5th edition. Classic GW and they can fetch right off with this.

Give DE a lost character back? Or possibly give them a brand new one? Nah feth those guys. We’ll give ‘em “Schwarzenegger Lilith” instead.

Lelith is supposed to be beautiful and elegant. It's two of her main defining features (next to being deadly). She's not only the best pit fighter but also the courtesan to the ruler of Comorragh. Audiences are smitten by her beauty and purposely bared flesh. How do you square that with what we've seen from the new sculpt?

It's not about body shaming or unattainable beauty standards, but what was an established character now apparently changed in a major fashion for no reason.

Yeah her ENTIRE schtick was "Look at me, I am so beautiful and skilled I can fight in the arena with no armour and hooks in my hair and I don't have a single scar on my body because I am that good and (pre-retcon) without sullying my body with silly drugs."

 Horla wrote:
As someone who hasn’t been around for years, do these dual-faction boxes normally just contain models or are there mission packs/fluff included with them too?

Nah, it's just a blatant means to either force people to pay many times more than they ordinarily would to get new sculpts for The Second Class Citizen factions, or it's a way to basically create a quasi-MLM structure where GW sells directly to a bunch of scalpers who then parcel the minis out and try to make a profit off them.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah her ENTIRE schtick was "Look at me, I am so beautiful and skilled I can fight in the arena with no armour and hooks in my hair and I don't have a single scar on my body because I am that good and (pre-retcon) without sullying my body with silly drugs."

Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

the_scotsman wrote:
Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

Ah, fair enough! I just had it in my head they retconned that, not been following DE closely since the launch of 8th. Thank you!

The face just turns me off on the new model. Looks to me like a trailer park meth queen in a psychotic rage because the quickie mart at the entrance to the park is out of her favorite ice cream.

The old one's face was cool, intense, focused and made her role as a disciplined, highly trained and professional fighter more believable.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

It is true that if you lay off supplements and no longer take shots, you start getting fat. Everyone knows it that is why you have sports camps durning summer, to not have a 3 month gap in taking them. But still I really don't think she is fat. She is build like a female wrestler or weight lifter would be build. Ain't no gymnast that is for sure, but she is too old for doing that anyway. Practicaly no one stays doing that over mid 20s.

Thread is actual comedy gold! Could be satire on angry nerdy losers

Eldar don't age like humans, and Dark Eldar especially, due to them replenishing their souls. She's not going to radically transform over the handful of years that the Gathering Storm plotline takes place over.

Eldrad is crystallising mainly due to his extreme, even by Eldar standards, age (he was around before the fall after all) as well as still utilising his psychic abilities.

You haven't see how people look after they go off cycle. I have seen dudes that were big like walls, turn in to 140kg blobs of fat over 6 month this very year, just because they stoped taking shots and supplements. Even a month after cycle you can see difference, you just can't keep up the big and lean muscle mass without help, there is no way going around it. Even if you have perfect genetics, and are huge, this just does not work, and she is a female on top of that. a few months on a ship with less torturing being done, less drugs, and she no longer looks like a crossfitter and more like a regular brawler.

Karol wrote:
You haven't see how people look after they go off cycle. I have seen dudes that were big like walls, turn in to 140kg blobs of fat over 6 month this very year, just because they stoped taking shots and supplements. Even a month after cycle you can see difference, you just can't keep up the big and lean muscle mass without help, there is no way going around it. Even if you have perfect genetics, and are huge, this just does not work, and she is a female on top of that. a few months on a ship with less torturing being done, less drugs, and she no longer looks like a crossfitter and more like a regular brawler.

So it's unfit, out of shape Lelith? Gee, thanks GW.

I'm not convinced by that argument. The new Ragnar didn't have a pot belly because he's overdone the feasting back at The Fang. That would be silly. I think you're reading too much into a sculpt that just looks like GW just got it a bit wrong...

Karol wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Oh hey, lets have the background of this character advance. We'll have her join a new faction, follow a new patron god. Won't that be interesting?

So what effect will this have on the design of her model?

Well... her hair is chunkier now..?

It is true that if you lay off supplements and no longer take shots, you start getting fat. Everyone knows it that is why you have sports camps durning summer, to not have a 3 month gap in taking them. But still I really don't think she is fat. She is build like a female wrestler or weight lifter would be build. Ain't no gymnast that is for sure, but she is too old for doing that anyway. Practicaly no one stays doing that over mid 20s.

Her HAIR. I literally made no comment on her being fat. Her HAIR isn't as finely sculpted on the new version.

I don't think GWs train of thought when modelling miniatures is that intrincate, they just follow some kind of marketing strategy.

They slightly reimagined Lelith being a little thicker, angrier and showing less bottoms... I don't think wearing pants just abolishes all the character lore. The Lelith art on the boxset is also not how most people imagine her.

Like with Drazhar, it's probably going to be better once people gets to see the model live, and not in 3 photos.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The amount of muscles are fine, and the "squat" appearance is just the perspective of the photo. People tend to forget that Eldar are fething JACKED, 7 foot tall murder machines made of nothing but muscle. Old Lelith is rockin' a mighty set of abs.

Where the sculpt falls apart is the right arm and the face. The face mainly because it doesn't fit her character in the slightest. The thing that sets Lelith apart is her completely stoic, calm and confident demeanour and that face sculpt does not capture that in the slightest. The right arm just looks unnatural and doesn't fit in with the rest of the pose and sets the entire silhouette and flow of the model off. I could actually deal with the face and overall model otherwise, but that right arm positioning actually ruins it.

Well-put. The images I've seen of the model in profile do look a lot better, but the arms definitely aren't doing her a lot of favors. Like, I'm trying to figure out what series of movements causes that particular hair swoop and arm/face positioning. It kind of seems like she's jumping up onto the rock, stabbing someone with her left-hand knife with no power coming from the rest of her body, and getting ready stab some other dude that she isn't looking at. (Her focus seems to be on the guy she's killing with her left hand despite only having the strength of a single arm behind the attack.) I'm rambling, but I agree that they ought to have done something different with the arms. Maybe there will be an impaler arm option that looks better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Lelith has not been retconned to do drugs. The fact that she had the combat drugs rule in the index was evidently considered a mistake, as they replaced it with a differently named rule in the codex ("a different league" or something, basically gives the effects of combat drugs but you get to switch whenever you like.)

Ah, fair enough! I just had it in my head they retconned that, not been following DE closely since the launch of 8th. Thank you!

Lelith's struggle with drug addiction and the PR around it is a whole thing, really. She wasn't on drugs when the first DE codex came out. Then they FAQ'd it to say that she was because, "Otherwise she'd be the only wych in the galaxy not doing drugs!" In the 5th edition codex, she was off of drugs again with fluff explicitly saying she was so good she didn't need them. I forget where she stood in the 7e codex, but as of the 8th edition codex she doesn't do drugs, but she's so gosh darn athletic she gets a special rule that kind of simulates combat drugs.


Also, quick note on the comment above about wearing shoes. Commoraghn arenas are sometimes sand, but they're also sometimes broken glass, razor wire, or absolutely anything else the drukhari might think is fun that day. So if Lelith can dance across that nonsense without hurting herself (and she can), she's probably fine on a battlefield too. My headcanon is that she's so used to fighting bootless that putting on shoes would actually throw off her carefully honed movements.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Her HAIR. I literally made no comment on her being fat. Her HAIR isn't as finely sculpted on the new version.

Its bigger though. And really, while I find some of the lore discussion interesting - I think its misplaced.
Because a model, she's a wych with bigger hair. So bigger=better. Like Drazhar has become an Incubi with more bling.
And unfortunately I think that results in a boring model. I don't think she's bad, just dull. A missed opportunity.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Also, quick note on the comment above about wearing shoes. Commoraghn arenas are sometimes sand, but they're also sometimes broken glass, razor wire, or absolutely anything else the drukhari might think is fun that day. So if Lelith can dance across that nonsense without hurting herself (and she can), she's probably fine on a battlefield too. My headcanon is that she's so used to fighting bootless that putting on shoes would actually throw off her carefully honed movements.

That, or she just can't find any shoes in size "hobbit."

yukishiro1 794881 11015173 wrote:

That, or she just can't find any shoes in size "hobbit."

If she does a lot of fighting in the area on gravel, then her feet should be rough and cracked like wooden bark. Don't really need shoes with feet like that.


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Crispy78 794881 11015128 wrote:

So it's unfit, out of shape Lelith? Gee, thanks GW.

I'm not convinced by that argument. The new Ragnar didn't have a pot belly because he's overdone the feasting back at The Fang. That would be silly. I think you're reading too much into a sculpt that just looks like GW just got it a bit wrong...

Well he did have that other dude with him in some of the books, that wore a decommissions mish mash of power armour and termintor armour to fit in to it. Ragnar even says it in one of the books that he was the first marine he could ever describe as fat.

I don't think she is fat. She is the right shape to me an MMA fighter or a female wrestler, minus the hair maybe. And if she can't do DE version of omnadrenin, because of the whole Inari think, there could be muscle mass drop.