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2021/04/08 20:28:52
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Quasistellar wrote: Think about this (slightly off topic) and laugh: a Myphitic Blight-hauler and a dark lance Ravager are the same points. Lol.
That seems pretty reasonable to me or at least not wildly off base.
I don't think its wildly off - but the difference is that the Ravager (probably Black Heart of Obsidian Rose) is very good for its 140 points - while the MBH feels a bit lacking, and probably should be 130. (This treads into Hellbrute territory and they don't have the 5++ - but I don't think anyone thinks they are priced especially competitively.)
Not that DG need help but still.
2021/04/08 22:20:03
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Maybe they're encountering it where it matters, I.E. where they actually play?
At some point you can't fall back on whatever meta you isolate to, because then no discussion is ever valid. If we want to discuss the direction the game is going in then it should be on the broadest terms possible.
2021/04/09 01:31:33
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Maybe they're encountering it where it matters, I.E. where they actually play?
At some point you can't fall back on whatever meta you isolate to, because then no discussion is ever valid. If we want to discuss the direction the game is going in then it should be on the broadest terms possible.
That's really reductionist, and it seems moderately offensive to tell people how the game plays where they play doesn't matter. People can still talk about the armies the field and face locally. Its not like its on some other planet where no one has anything in common. There will still be the same army books, weapons, and tactics, and what works against a space marine army in Finland will work against a Space Marine army in Seattle.
Chasing the theoretical tournament meta this week is an exercise in mild curiosity for most people, at best. What people actually turn up with at the local shop or club (when that happens) actually matters week-to-week. That doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss- its actually a lot more, because then it isn't solely around the Bestest Cookie Cutter list (or meta skew to counter said net lists), but a variety of units that people buy and put on the table.
Otherwise you get people yammering nonsense about how no one ever fields ravagers, and how to painstakingly calculate the number of melta weapons that sufficiently count as spam.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/04/09 02:09:08
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Maybe they're encountering it where it matters, I.E. where they actually play?
At some point you can't fall back on whatever meta you isolate to, because then no discussion is ever valid. If we want to discuss the direction the game is going in then it should be on the broadest terms possible.
That's really reductionist, and it seems moderately offensive to tell people how the game plays where they play doesn't matter. People can still talk about the armies the field and face locally. Its not like its on some other planet where no one has anything in common. There will still be the same army books, weapons, and tactics, and what works against a space marine army in Finland will work against a Space Marine army in Seattle.
Chasing the theoretical tournament meta this week is an exercise in mild curiosity for most people, at best. What people actually turn up with at the local shop or club (when that happens) actually matters week-to-week. That doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss- its actually a lot more, because then it isn't solely around the Bestest Cookie Cutter list (or meta skew to counter said net lists), but a variety of units that people buy and put on the table.
Otherwise you get people yammering nonsense about how no one ever fields ravagers, and how to painstakingly calculate the number of melta weapons that sufficiently count as spam.
What me ask you. Who’s opinion on game balance would you trust more? Causal Cory, who plays 4 games a year in his garage, or spike Steve who travels for tournaments and gets 100+ games a year?
The fact is trusting either has problems, but we have to weigh Steve’s ideas more due to statistically principles. Cory and could have been crushed once by a particular nasty Tyranid list using FW big stuff and therefore think the army is the most OP thing ever. More likely he played a netlist marine build and therefore thinks that army is OP, but is that any different than the Tyranid example? Steve/ competitive stats might look at the game in skewed light, but at least he has a large understanding of the game as whole, while Corey might only know his army/ whatever he plays again + what the internet tells him,
To me the whole “We shouldn’t listen to competitive players” mindset comes from people who don’t play the game much trying to justify their creditability. They take the reasonable point that some things are bad simply from a basic play level (that competitive players have a harder time understanding) and extend it as the only thing that matters. But at the end of the day if you play the game enough then it’s competitive concerns that matter to you.
So TLDR Listening to casual community some when it comes to game balance is fine. But, weighing their opinion as just as/more important than competitive statistics makes no sense.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 02:18:00
2021/04/09 02:24:47
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
That's really reductionist, and it seems moderately offensive to tell people how the game plays where they play doesn't matter. People can still talk about the armies the field and face locally. Its not like its on some other planet where no one has anything in common. There will still be the same army books, weapons, and tactics, and what works against a space marine army in Finland will work against a Space Marine army in Seattle.
Chasing the theoretical tournament meta this week is an exercise in mild curiosity for most people, at best. What people actually turn up with at the local shop or club (when that happens) actually matters week-to-week. That doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss- its actually a lot more, because then it isn't solely around the Bestest Cookie Cutter list (or meta skew to counter said net lists), but a variety of units that people buy and put on the table.
Otherwise you get people yammering nonsense about how no one ever fields ravagers, and how to painstakingly calculate the number of melta weapons that sufficiently count as spam.
I'm not intending to dismiss the experiences of other so I apologize if I came across that way.
Don't take Xeno too seriously on ravagers though.
2021/04/09 02:34:19
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Quasistellar wrote: Think about this (slightly off topic) and laugh: a Myphitic Blight-hauler and a dark lance Ravager are the same points. Lol.
That seems pretty reasonable to me or at least not wildly off base.
I don't think its wildly off - but the difference is that the Ravager (probably Black Heart of Obsidian Rose) is very good for its 140 points - while the MBH feels a bit lacking, and probably should be 130. (This treads into Hellbrute territory and they don't have the 5++ - but I don't think anyone thinks they are priced especially competitively.)
Not that DG need help but still.
I don't get it, it's a completely apples to oranges comparison.
One is T6, degrades, has a 4+ base save, but is more mobile and has safer range on its three anti-tank weapon shots. The other is slower, but MUCH more durable - no degradation, -1 damage, 3+ base save and T7, has an extra short ranged weapon, and has 4 S6 Ap-2 D1 melee attacks.
Other than the fact that they're both vehicles and both feature 3 S8 Anti-tank oriented shots, the comparison is essentially meaningless, but I would argue both bring some value to the table though I'd rather have the blighthauler as it will actually participate in the winning the game portion of the game, as opposed to the just killing stuff portion.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/09 02:41:50
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
2021/04/09 03:02:30
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
Which is just as true for tournament play. Not everyone enjoys the spam (and seven of the exact same unit is spam) and meta chasing of tournament play. You shouldn't have to build a cutthroat tournament list to have a chance of winning against a casual loyalist list, but right now that's where a lot of factions are. I don't care if heavy melta rifle Eradicators aren't "meta" in the tournament scene right now. They exist, and can evaporate any but the toughest vehicles from full range. That forces people to leave models they want to play at home because no one wants to pick that favorite model up before it's had a chance to do anything. Having your army choices dictated by the existence of a single unit isn't fun. If you enjoy tournament games that's fine, but it isn't what everyone wants to play.
2021/04/09 03:19:07
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
Which is just as true for tournament play. Not everyone enjoys the spam (and seven of the exact same unit is spam) and meta chasing of tournament play. You shouldn't have to build a cutthroat tournament list to have a chance of winning against a casual loyalist list, but right now that's where a lot of factions are. I don't care if heavy melta rifle Eradicators aren't "meta" in the tournament scene right now. They exist, and can evaporate any but the toughest vehicles from full range. That forces people to leave models they want to play at home because no one wants to pick that favorite model up before it's had a chance to do anything. Having your army choices dictated by the existence of a single unit isn't fun. If you enjoy tournament games that's fine, but it isn't what everyone wants to play.
...except that there are tons of units that can do that out there. I can make a unit of aberrants or acolytes out of the single worst codex (by competitive wr anyway) that can supremely reliably delete any vehicle you've got on the table, just as easily as heavy melta rifle erads.
You don't need a hyper-competitive list to take on an actually casual space marine list. You need a competitive list to take on a competitive marine list. The reason it seems like you do is, surprise surprise, the units that everyone owns from all the starter boxes of primaris marines are basically the competitive marine choices right now. If you actually go up against someone taking a wider slice of the many many many many options in the marine codex, they're perfectly easy to deal with with the fluff-bunniest of lists. i've beaten marines with my "take 1 of each aspect warrior squad, 3 storm guardian squads and an avatar of khaine and go from there" Eldar list, and that's...never not been a joke.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/09 03:35:58
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
MM is a part of what you can face, but is no more a gatekeeper than anything else can be in the game when your list leans too much.
I'm sure we'll see small point bumps in the future, but nothing that is going to take them out of the equation.
GW isn't exactly known for moderated changes all the time. I wonder what will be said if they sledge hammer meltas down. As is they are too cheap and useful, while some AT options like Missile launcher and Lascannon are too swingy and end up being too expensive so don't get a nod unless you have no other choice, like say Guard.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
For an overall discussion yes the larger community is more important but to the person who is playing in their local area, the world around doesn't mean as much. What he's saying is accurate as is what you are but to the individual what you will see will always be more important than a faceless boogeyman of what someone across the globe is dealing with in their games for instance. Where the truth is in what is broken clearly will usually eventually end up in your area, even if its not there already unless a community actively keeps it out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 03:39:05
2021/04/09 03:58:19
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
The thing is the "competitive" meta matters absolutely zero to GW. they want you to buy something, you only buy it for rules, you morons buy it...lather, rinse repeat. Ergo, pendulums gotta swing. Cuz what was once OP yesterday will be "trash" tomorrow and vice-versa.
Not an attack on anyone, but if you think GW cares what you think(comp, garage, whatever)....you're wrong. As long as you keep gobbling up every.single.release, they have absolutely no incentive to make it better for that style of play. Cuz it behooves them not to.
I will never purchase a model for the rules, irrespective of how OP it may be.
2021/04/09 04:02:25
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
Which is just as true for tournament play. Not everyone enjoys the spam (and seven of the exact same unit is spam) and meta chasing of tournament play. You shouldn't have to build a cutthroat tournament list to have a chance of winning against a casual loyalist list, but right now that's where a lot of factions are. I don't care if heavy melta rifle Eradicators aren't "meta" in the tournament scene right now. They exist, and can evaporate any but the toughest vehicles from full range. That forces people to leave models they want to play at home because no one wants to pick that favorite model up before it's had a chance to do anything. Having your army choices dictated by the existence of a single unit isn't fun. If you enjoy tournament games that's fine, but it isn't what everyone wants to play.
...except that there are tons of units that can do that out there. I can make a unit of aberrants or acolytes out of the single worst codex (by competitive wr anyway) that can supremely reliably delete any vehicle you've got on the table, just as easily as heavy melta rifle erads.
You don't need a hyper-competitive list to take on an actually casual space marine list. You need a competitive list to take on a competitive marine list. The reason it seems like you do is, surprise surprise, the units that everyone owns from all the starter boxes of primaris marines are basically the competitive marine choices right now. If you actually go up against someone taking a wider slice of the many many many many options in the marine codex, they're perfectly easy to deal with with the fluff-bunniest of lists. i've beaten marines with my "take 1 of each aspect warrior squad, 3 storm guardian squads and an avatar of khaine and go from there" Eldar list, and that's...never not been a joke.
......except you just compared two units that have to get into melee to do the job with one that does it from 24 away. It's a lot easier to screen out melee units than 24 inch range guns. It's not the existence of units that can reliably delete vehicles that's a problem, it's the ones that can do it with little counterplay. I have no problem with normal MMs or Eradicators, as they need to get close to do the job, it's the melta weapons that essentially get around the rules for melta that are an issue.
Agreed on your second point. The issue is that the best loyalists units are widespread and easily available, and therefore seen everywhere. Doesn't change the fact that they're everywhere.
2021/04/09 04:17:26
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
I speak not of a single local meta, but the aggregation of local metas among all players.. There are a lot more people in various local metas than there are in the high end tournament scene, and as such, they are the larger customer base and represent the vast majority of how people experience the game. GW should be aiming to provide the best experience for the various local metas 'in the wild', and the tournament data, while useful, is not going to represent those communities very well.
And this is maybe where a lot of disconnect comes from. If Marines aren't doing well in tournies against hyper optimized lists that's one thing. But if relatively casual, popular and common models in the most common faction are curbstomping the relatively casual common and popular models and builds of other factions, that's a big problem even if it's not manifesting at the tournament level, because that's how the game may be manifesting to the vast majority of players.
SM were, are and always will be boogieman in some form. At the moment that form is Dark Angels.
In casual games anything SM related that is at least barely optimized is still very powerful. Which isn't true for many of the other top factions: their effectiveness drops dramatically outside the lists that heavily rely on their cheesiest combos.
The era has not ended at all.
2021/04/09 07:48:25
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Racerguy180 wrote: The thing is the "competitive" meta matters absolutely zero to GW. they want you to buy something, you only buy it for rules, you morons buy it...lather, rinse repeat. Ergo, pendulums gotta swing. Cuz what was once OP yesterday will be "trash" tomorrow and vice-versa.
Not an attack on anyone, but if you think GW cares what you think(comp, garage, whatever)....you're wrong. As long as you keep gobbling up every.single.release, they have absolutely no incentive to make it better for that style of play. Cuz it behooves them not to.
I will never purchase a model for the rules, irrespective of how OP it may be.
This is factually not true - they have made a very clear effort to engage more with the competitive communities during 8th and especially in 9th.
It clearly isn't all they care about; nor should it be.
Not buying models for rules is the right idea though.
2021/04/09 08:14:27
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
I’d argue that whilst Competitive and Local-metas are both useful measurements of a codex’s/list’s/unit’s performance neither offer a complete view point.
By the nature of competitive play, I would expect those lists that do well in this environment to be optimised to perform as well as possible. I’d assume the selection of a faction(s) and the composition of the armies in this environment would tend towards the attaining the best possible performance dependent on what miniatures a player has access to (whether owning or borrowing). Like many optimisation problems whilst there doesn’t seem to be definitively a single best list consistently a small number of builds from limited range of factions often seem to be on top.
Depending on how competitive/ casual the local meta is we could (I’d say should) start to see different properties emerge. The more casual the environment the greater variety of factions and list I would expect to see. As the casualness of meta increases I would expect the performance measure being sort in any given army moves away from ‘absolute best possible of all factions available to the player’ to ‘solid enough to have a fun game’ through to ‘I just like the model/ these are the models I have/when I put the list together performance wasn’t an important factor’.
With performance no longer being the only criteria/lower performance being sort it/acceptable seems natural that a greater range of possible solutions should be able to provide it.
As others have brought an issue with Space Marines of late has been that this increase in breadth possible solutions hasn’t come that far down a power curve.
So to be a healthy game do you optimise it so that the maximum possible performance of each faction is equal accepting that this may come at the cost of variety contained with those solutions (i.e. optimise based on/for competitive play) or optimise it such that each army has a broad and varied selection of options that can offer a ‘good’ level of performance and accept that the absolute peak performance may differ (e.g. optimise on/for casual/ local meta). Yes, ideally you would do both, but given the complexity of the system in practical terms I don’t think that achieving a perfect solution to both is attainable.
I think the answer to this will vary from player to player depending on how important they think these two are.
Having played since the days rogue trader GW seem to err towards the latter category.
This isn’t to say that they there isn’t room for improving the balance (whether the absolute peak performance of a codex or the power/ variety curve of a codex) or that they shouldn’t pay attention improving the balance.
Compared to previous editions the annual points updates, and twice-yearly FAQ updates are a revolution and clearly demonstrate that they are listening and are doing.
In a way, yes the era is ended, but in others it hasn’t. Whilst in a competitive setting space marines of a variety of chapters are no longer topping the tables (as much), DA look to be in a good place and critically are still marines. Thus, Space Marines still have a subfaction which is likely to be table topping. In casual play marines are still very ‘solid’.
Then there is the entire preferential treatment with respect to models they are getting. Yes I play marines, but boy am I bored of the new models. There are so many armies who I feel are more deserving or in need of new/ refreshed models. Hopefully the introduction of the plastic SoB will have demonstrated to the bean counters at GW that giving a non-marine army a large refresh/ update is profitable. With Beast Snaggas on the horizon there may be hope yet.
2021/04/09 12:51:38
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Racerguy180 wrote: The thing is the "competitive" meta matters absolutely zero to GW. they want you to buy something, you only buy it for rules, you morons buy it...lather, rinse repeat. Ergo, pendulums gotta swing. Cuz what was once OP yesterday will be "trash" tomorrow and vice-versa.
Not an attack on anyone, but if you think GW cares what you think(comp, garage, whatever)....you're wrong. As long as you keep gobbling up every.single.release, they have absolutely no incentive to make it better for that style of play. Cuz it behooves them not to.
I will never purchase a model for the rules, irrespective of how OP it may be.
I bought a ton of the new CSM, because I adore the models and I've been looking to replace them for a long time. I didn't buy them for competitive reasons or rules ( lol, dem traits ). Where does that place me?
People constantly meme about having boxes on miniatures unassembled. People just like buying cool gak.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 12:52:35
2021/04/09 13:18:53
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Insectum7 wrote: The local meta is more important, it's just harder to get data for.
Maybe to the person who’s in it, but it doesn’t mean jack to everyone else who isn’t. So how is it generally more important than the larger competitive meta? as there are a lot more people not in local scene then are.
Right now people are being told all over the place that marines are OP. Will local metas change due to them not being at all OP in the competitive scene? Yeah, it’s just takes longer for them to adjust. We already seeing a lot more “how do I counter DG” type topics popping up all over the internet, and it’s likely we’ll see the same for drukhari. Unlike in real economics, the trickle down economy is very much a thing In 40k.
Which is just as true for tournament play. Not everyone enjoys the spam (and seven of the exact same unit is spam) and meta chasing of tournament play. You shouldn't have to build a cutthroat tournament list to have a chance of winning against a casual loyalist list, but right now that's where a lot of factions are. I don't care if heavy melta rifle Eradicators aren't "meta" in the tournament scene right now. They exist, and can evaporate any but the toughest vehicles from full range. That forces people to leave models they want to play at home because no one wants to pick that favorite model up before it's had a chance to do anything. Having your army choices dictated by the existence of a single unit isn't fun. If you enjoy tournament games that's fine, but it isn't what everyone wants to play.
...except that there are tons of units that can do that out there. I can make a unit of aberrants or acolytes out of the single worst codex (by competitive wr anyway) that can supremely reliably delete any vehicle you've got on the table, just as easily as heavy melta rifle erads.
You don't need a hyper-competitive list to take on an actually casual space marine list. You need a competitive list to take on a competitive marine list. The reason it seems like you do is, surprise surprise, the units that everyone owns from all the starter boxes of primaris marines are basically the competitive marine choices right now. If you actually go up against someone taking a wider slice of the many many many many options in the marine codex, they're perfectly easy to deal with with the fluff-bunniest of lists. i've beaten marines with my "take 1 of each aspect warrior squad, 3 storm guardian squads and an avatar of khaine and go from there" Eldar list, and that's...never not been a joke.
......except you just compared two units that have to get into melee to do the job with one that does it from 24 away. It's a lot easier to screen out melee units than 24 inch range guns. It's not the existence of units that can reliably delete vehicles that's a problem, it's the ones that can do it with little counterplay. I have no problem with normal MMs or Eradicators, as they need to get close to do the job, it's the melta weapons that essentially get around the rules for melta that are an issue.
Agreed on your second point. The issue is that the best loyalists units are widespread and easily available, and therefore seen everywhere. Doesn't change the fact that they're everywhere.
I dunno, I guess I've just played against eradicators enough at this point that I'm so used to dealing with them and it doesn't bother me that much. I play tanks against them, and I've played against the heavy rifle version as well as the normal version.
They show up, turn 2, and generally if you've got a vehicle that doesn't have any kind of additional defenses just straight T7 3+ they kill it, then you kill them. If you do, they don't. The last time I played against them, I had a grot megatank loaded up with rokkits, so like 160 points, big expensive target. Turn 1 it rolled up and killed 3 aggressors, turn 2 eradicators showed up and shot at it, missed twice, failed to wound once, one shot got saved by the invuln, and one shot did 1 damage because of ramshackle, they took 6 out of 9 wounds off and then he had to direct a whole bunch of his longrange firepower into the GMT to finally take it out.
You're gonna lose models in warhammer 40k, and there's gonna be units with antitank weaponry that shoot your stuff. I'd actually rather the units that come down to destroy my vehicles:
-cost a cp to use properly
-don't show up until turn 2 so I get a chance to make some points back with my vehicle
-have T5 3+ instead of a vehicle statline
-lose 1/3 of their firepower every 3 wounds
-have 24" range instead of like 48" range
-have to turn up 9" from a board edge so I can protect really vital assets by placing them in the center and screening for them
Melta doesn't work on suicide units in the 8th+ framework because GW hasn't been able to jam the idea that transports should make units move faster into their brains since 7th. It has never been a thing that worked in 8th in basically any faction, and it was due to get a buff comparative to much longer range, safer weaponry. They overshot by like 5 points with base eradicators, and when analyzing heavy erads initially people didnt realize they were another 5pts, and they bumped their cost up pretty quick. The vehicles that you can actually make the argument eradicators make unusable...were already bad before. High cost low durability mediocre damage vehicles like the quad-las predator, land raider, and big nid monsters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: SM were, are and always will be boogieman in some form. At the moment that form is Dark Angels.
In casual games anything SM related that is at least barely optimized is still very powerful. Which isn't true for many of the other top factions: their effectiveness drops dramatically outside the lists that heavily rely on their cheesiest combos.
1) I can take my pile of rogue trader pewter harlequins with completely random wargear and make a list with almost no effort at all that will style all over 90% of armies that exist in the game. Most of the top factions right now don't actually have that many choices to choose from. I guess I could be like...spamming Voidweavers on purpose to try and make my list shittier?
2) Dark angels are currently sitting at a 49% wr post-codex. Just, so we are clear on the numbers that are being shown right now. just under 50%. something like the twelfth or fourteenth most competitive faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 13:23:13
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/09 13:49:47
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
the_scotsman wrote: 2) Dark angels are currently sitting at a 49% wr post-codex. Just, so we are clear on the numbers that are being shown right now. just under 50%. something like the twelfth or fourteenth most competitive faction.
They're just a bit under 53% for March, but then CK are 66%. People finally realized that there isn't a lot of anti-tank out there. And by virtue of their success Thousand Sons are being dragged up unwillingly since they're caster whipping boys in CK soup. Asuryani sit high, because of Wraithseers in soup. Deathwatch is all but abandoned.
Of course this is all just a small snapshot in time and we're bound to see things fluctuate as more people start to play and learn the ropes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 13:50:49
2021/04/09 14:08:44
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Harlequins are overrated IMHO. They're perfect marines killers, so perfect anti tournament meta. In single random games they're not that powerful. They're not even particularly common and so not many players tailor their lists to counter them. Tailor your list against Harlies instead of SM and you will likely beat them with not much effort.
Looking at the ratings orks are very high, but they're in fact a mid tier army with a single build that is excellent in tournaments. Tailor against the greentide and the same competitive list becomes pretty mediocre because it's not powerful at all, it just benefits from the fact that people tailor against opponents that spam completely different profiles.
But I aknowledge Harlequins have an advantage over the majority of other factions: they just have 8 datasheets, which means any random collection would be reasonably close to their top builds anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 14:11:34
2021/04/09 14:22:41
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Blackie wrote: Harlequins are overrated IMHO. They're perfect marines killers, so perfect anti tournament meta. In single random games they're not that powerful. They're not even particularly common and so not many players tailor their lists to counter them. Tailor your list against Harlies instead of SM and you will likely beat them with not much effort.
Looking at the ratings orks are very high, but they're in fact a mid tier army with a single build that is excellent in tournaments. Tailor against the greentide and the same competitive list becomes pretty mediocre because it's not powerful at all, it just benefits from the fact that people tailor against opponents that spam completely different profiles.
No, the grot list is garbage. Just because it had a result at a tournament it doesn't mean it's good. Massed smashas are amazing on planet bowling ball tables, otherwise they're a liability. So those lists must be put into context. Orks have basically two builds: green tide and light/medium vehicles spam. Both are extremely skew and the average player won't likely play something like that. More likely a mix between both, which is the opposite of a competitive list.
And all those lists that placed in tournaments aren't really that powerful in a single random game, they all rely on the fact that meltas and other super powerful tools are largely wasted. Try to assault 12-18 smashas with 3x5 deathguard termies, you won't tag more than a single one per charge, maybe two as their footprint is massive.
Harlequins can be tailored. Bring lots and lots of mid strenght weapons and you'll melt them. Aggressors or even bolter firstborn guys can easily do the job. Of course if you spam anti elite and anti tank you're gonna struggle, as you're not tailoring harlies, you're tailoring other SM or custodes. Which makes sense as they're the most common faction to face in a random game. But then if harlies are the real bullies of your meta just tailor against them. Tailoring against orks is even easier, and I mean with both greentides and light/medium vehicles spam in mind, not just a single archetype.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/09 15:09:46
2021/04/09 15:21:13
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Racerguy180 wrote: The thing is the "competitive" meta matters absolutely zero to GW. they want you to buy something, you only buy it for rules, you morons buy it...lather, rinse repeat. Ergo, pendulums gotta swing. Cuz what was once OP yesterday will be "trash" tomorrow and vice-versa.
Not an attack on anyone, but if you think GW cares what you think(comp, garage, whatever)....you're wrong. As long as you keep gobbling up every.single.release, they have absolutely no incentive to make it better for that style of play. Cuz it behooves them not to.
I will never purchase a model for the rules, irrespective of how OP it may be.
True to an extent of course, in that all for-profit enterprise is ultimately at the mercy of its bottom line.
But grossly over simplified.
If they don't care about the competitive meta, why did they incorporate ITC style missions into the core game and higher TO's to be a part of their design team? You think they didn't track the hit count on the Warcom Metawatch articles? Think that tracking has anything to do with why we've seen four so far?
GW care about their bottom line- this is your argument.
They can't maximize their profits without catering to the competitive scene, the narrative scene, the store circuit, the garage hammer, and the new players all at the same time. Therefore they care about all of these things.
2021/04/09 15:38:57
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Blackie wrote: No, the grot list is garbage. Just because it had a result at a tournament it doesn't mean it's good. Massed smashas are amazing on planet bowling ball tables, otherwise they're a liability. So those lists must be put into context. Orks have basically two builds: green tide and light/medium vehicles spam. Both are extremely skew and the average player won't likely play something like that. More likely a mix between both, which is the opposite of a competitive list.
And all those lists that placed in tournaments aren't really that powerful in a single random game, they all rely on the fact that meltas and other super powerful tools are largely wasted. Try to assault 12-18 smashas with 3x5 deathguard termies, you won't tag more than a single one per charge, maybe two as their footprint is massive.
Harlequins can be tailored. Bring lots and lots of mid strenght weapons and you'll melt them. Aggressors or even bolter firstborn guys can easily do the job. Of course if you spam anti elite and anti tank you're gonna struggle, as you're not tailoring harlies, you're tailoring other SM or custodes. Which makes sense as they're the most common faction to face in a random game. But then if harlies are the real bullies of your meta just tailor against them. Tailoring against orks is even easier, and I mean with both greentides and light/medium vehicles spam in mind, not just a single archetype.
I get the impression you are discarding data that does not fit with your argument. Are you saying that competitive lists will not be successful in random games? There are bad match-ups out there, but that is also true at a tourney. Plus list-tailoring when you don't know exactly what you are facing can be a blind alley of list design. Part of the whole challenge of list design for a tourney is not knowing/controlling what you will face. You can guess and plan for "gate keeper" archetypes, but over-tailor for one and you get punished by another. That is why I do believe that tournament data is important. It needs to be analyzed to become information, but its what we have to work with.
In my little meta (before this latest lockdown) I certainly see Orks with Green Tide, others with lots of buggies and still others with lots of (counts-as) artillery. Indeed, the same guy can and does run all three. Harlies are powerful and draw from a limited model pool, so I am not convinced that there is a massive difference between a "competitive" and "casual" Harelquin list.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
2021/04/09 15:45:52
Subject: Re:An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
There is going to be little difference between a competitive and casual Harlie list, but the army is so finesse focused and punishing of mistakes that unless someone is ultra familiar with the army and very skilled in using it, they could easily crumble in a lower skill/casual environment.
As has already been stated, the army is very good at killing power armour but it folds vs other armies. It has a miserable time into Daemons, Orks and Admech and plenty of Necron builds give it a tough game too. And despite being power armour it tends to bounce off DG pretty hard as well.
Nazi punks feth off
2021/04/09 16:04:32
Subject: An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.
Blackie wrote: No, the grot list is garbage. Just because it had a result at a tournament it doesn't mean it's good. Massed smashas are amazing on planet bowling ball tables, otherwise they're a liability. So those lists must be put into context. Orks have basically two builds: green tide and light/medium vehicles spam. Both are extremely skew and the average player won't likely play something like that. More likely a mix between both, which is the opposite of a competitive list.
And all those lists that placed in tournaments aren't really that powerful in a single random game, they all rely on the fact that meltas and other super powerful tools are largely wasted. Try to assault 12-18 smashas with 3x5 deathguard termies, you won't tag more than a single one per charge, maybe two as their footprint is massive.
I definitely don't know the life of these lists. I have no idea what terrain was like, but I imagine the quantity of smashas outweighs the potentially limited firing lanes. All he really needs is sight to the objectives.
The grot list beat a crummy Necron list, UM with 30 heavy intercessors / 9 Erads / Bobby, SW with MMLFs / 3 Erads / TWC / BGV / WG, DG with 3 rhinos / shrouds / 3 PBCs / a bunch of PMs, Black Templars with 15 Crusaders / 16 BGV / 6 Erads.
He only lost to Custodes dread spam & scions.
Despite feelings about the list it appears he was able to beat some pretty serious lists and opponents.
Also people should take note of the variety of lists in the field. It's been quite something.
