Switch Theme:

Every Release is Broken  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

ERJAK wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


You don't need to do that, we've had 10 Codex releases in 9th, 2 of them have been OP, 3 of them have been appropriate to the power curve, and 5 of them have been just slightly below curve or worse.

If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.

Just for the lols, let's look at Primaris for this edition: Bladeguard Veterans, Chaplain on bike and Eradicators are good. The turret, the bunker, the bikes, the tank, the land speeder, the fight last dude, the thick Intercessors, the punchy Intercessors, the buggy, the thick Intercessor Captain all range from meh to sidegrades to what you already had access to before. And no, the units to which you sidegrade aren't OP broken either.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/21 12:46:50


 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






a_typical_hero wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


You don't need to do that, we've had 10 Codex releases in 9th, 2 of them have been OP, 3 of them have been appropriate to the power curve, and 5 of them have been just slightly below curve or worse.

If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.

Just for the lols, let's look at Primaris for this edition: Bladeguard Veterans, Chaplain on bike and Eradicators are good. The turret, the bunker, the bikes, the tank, the land speeder, the fight last dude, the thick Intercessors, the punchy Intercessors, the buggy, the thick Intercessor Captain all range from meh to sidegrades to what you already had access to before. And no, the units to which you sidegrade aren't OP broken either.


It's almost hilarious really. Countless people keep on claiming that GW keeps bringing out new units that are the absolute best, and that it's a conscious strategy. And yet, the vast majority of new releases since I started paying attention to it (early 2000s) have been mediocre. There is no indication whatsoever of intentional power creep, let alone making units overpowered to sell the new stuff. In that case, Raiders, which have been around for decades, wouldn't have become the new hotness.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.

   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.

Agreed. It seems they did a pretty good job on avoiding the obvious mistakes on this one. I'm sure the Chicken Littles will find something else to freak out about though.

BrianDavion wrote:Ya know, I'm thinking a "take unit X that every know knows is 'just alright' and cherry pick facts to prove it's OP" thread could be hilarious.

Isn't that what this is?
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





@ Dolnikan

The reason Raiders are the new Dark Kin hotness is its easier to stick good rules on an existing something than give the Xenos any new toys, as at a guess they havent got anything new new for a decade or so, maybe the planes

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.

We know for a fact there used to be executive meddling to push an OP model for sales (this specifically happened with the Wraithknight). That executive is no longer making decisions for the company...
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






BrianDavion wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.



Ya know, I'm thinking a "take unit X that every know knows is 'just alright' and cherry pick facts to prove it's OP" thread could be hilarious.


You can create the amusement of that thread by going to the search feature and typing in user "xenomancers"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.

We know for a fact there used to be executive meddling to push an OP model for sales (this specifically happened with the Wraithknight). That executive is no longer making decisions for the company...

Yep, very poor integrity on the part of their business leadership for that one. Which is a shame since it's a beautiful model with interesting fluff, I'd love to see it balanced in the future to be a "stronger wraithlord" with a reasonable cost (and weapons) to boot. Well, at least it makes for a good display piece on the shelf in 8th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 20:00:37


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Beast Snaggas represent a fairly significant new Xenos release. First new models I'm going to buy for my Ork army in over a decade.

   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

I think there are a few lists that don't have her but she does definitely seem way too cheap for everything she does.

Could it be that some lists don't have her just because the player hasn't acquired her/painted her up yet?
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Void__Dragon wrote:
I think there are a few lists that don't have her but she does definitely seem way too cheap for everything she does.

Could it be that some lists don't have her just because the player hasn't acquired her/painted her up yet?


Well that applies to me. I have zero of the new models so obviously none appears in my lists

(and no it's not due to how good/bad she is. All my model budget goes to AOS as general plus until GW sorts spray can issue to EU I'm loathe to paint more models to my favourite painted army worried different shade of basecoat would affect final result. White is hard enough to paint without starting to change process)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 06:58:11


2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.


that'll remain just long eneugh to sell out of a second production run of her
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.
Except... She's not. She's popular but she's a good unit for WWSWF.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Lammia wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.
Except... She's not. She's popular but she's a good unit for WWSWF.

Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 20:39:55


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm looking forward to the time when it will be appropriate for me to field Morvenn; she won't be joining my Order of Battle until at least three Crusade forces come together.

It's going to take forever; I may end up losing my patience and just playing a Strike Force matched play battle just to get a feel for her. I just know that if I stick to my guns and wait until it suits the story, it will feel like so much more of an event.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As for the original topic, I'd argue that the new SoB was received with about as much fanfare as a wet fart. Most everything in there was a downgrade or sidegrade. A few good units, still strong competitively, but the internal balancing in it was so bad. Like so bad that people are forgetting that the castigators and flag cheerleaders haven't been released yet.

 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.


Their new strategy seems to be release new models with whatever rules because people will buy them anyway, then later on the line, maybe when sales slack off, then make them good so sales pick up.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Altima wrote:
As for the original topic, I'd argue that the new SoB was received with about as much fanfare as a wet fart. Most everything in there was a downgrade or sidegrade. A few good units, still strong competitively, but the internal balancing in it was so bad. Like so bad that people are forgetting that the castigators and flag cheerleaders haven't been released yet.



the flag cheerleaders are pretty obviously intended for crusade. and the catigator is as good as any only tank right now (IE not very) still the rest of the new stuff was solid.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 04:49:23


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Jarms48 wrote:
Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


keep in mind damage isn't the only thing here, both Gulliman and Morvenn have a nice force multipling aura. does the new snakebite char do that?

(Morvenn is also subfaction agnostic so that's a big plus to her in my book.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm glad to be validated 9 months later regarding Necrons. I said the day the book released that it was an underpowered, overcomplicated and uninspiring codex, and that was compared to Marines - whom people now consider mediocre.

For what it's worth I think Marines, Sisters and Death Guard are all really good. Some of the SM subchapters ain't great but with access to that many generic datasheets and strats you can cry me a river. Dark Eldar and AdMech have broken the game and Orks are probably too strong too. I would rather every codex be on the same level as Necrons than AdMech. There comes a point when it's just silly and the game is over by turn 3 and oh no it's 7th edition all over again
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Grovelin' Grot




Everyone losing their minds about the 4 mortal wounds. It triggers on 6s, on 3 attacks.

That's an average of 4 mortal wounds every 2 turns. 8 mortal wounds in an entire game if you get turn 2 charge and immediately get another charge next turn.

So if he gets a charge against a character he should kill them, but so would a 95 point warboss with DKK.

If he charges your average space marine unit they're probably dead, but most ork units will do this, plus then he's there with his pants down and gets mowed down by multimeltas, or any S8 shooting, or a dedicated melee unit.

And that's a single good character in a codex that saw near universal nerfs.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


Both. Well, maybe not quite "inherently broken" but I think there are a number of serious issues beyond points values. Command Protocols are stupidly restrictive and complex compared to other army-wide special rules, for example. The structure of our Codex makes getting a decent amount of characters difficult. Our Core and Dynastic Agent restrictions make synergy difficult. Things like Doomsday Blasters/Cannons still being D6 shots and D6 damage is a problem. These problems wouldn't be so bad if they'd signalled a trend for other 9th edition Codices but yet again GW have shown a complete inability to develop a design philosophy and stick to it for more than a handful of books. If everyone got minor buffs after jumping through some hoops as their army-wide rules that would be fine but we've seen everything from DG contagions to SM doctrines and DE PfP just be things you get without trying. Same with needing to think about which characters you include, or whether it's worth adding a Patrol to squeeze more in. But most of the other books put many of the support characters in Elite, unlike Necrons.

There are a lot of units that can be fixed with a points drop but the core problems need errata to fix. The biggest issue is those core problems are some of the tings that really determine the army's character.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Honestly, I think that named character is just too expensive. Even if you are already playing snakebites, running the regular Beastboss on Squigosaur with relic and a decent warlord trait seems like a much better option since it performs better against many more different opponents.

Essentially you are paying a lot of extra points for a lot of damage that is likely to end up as overkill. The main advantage seems to be being able to throw about orkyfied quotes of Captain Ahab all game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 09:31:07


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.
Sisters aren't Marines. I'd be wary of costing them the same because they look like similar buff bots. In truth, Idk what people do with Vahl's buff in most lists. There's nothing in most lists that do better with her presence. The one exception I've seen is the 20 Gurl BSS...
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Jarms48 wrote:
Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


Damage -1 vs damage halved.
3+sv base vs 2+sv base
a S6 heavy bolter and 2 krak missiles that reroll BS2+ hits and wound rolls vs a BS5+ 18" range Thump Gun
4+ save vs mortal wounds vs not.
RR1s to hit and wound and 1 unit RRs all hits and wounds, vs +1 to hit in melee

Gosh I wonder why morven might be a bit more expensive than mozrog, it's a good thing the only thing that determines value for point cost is how much damage something does in melee.
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


I asked one of my most regular opponents about this last night. he plays Necrons almost exclusively and comes over often to chuck some dice and down a few brews. points cost reductions could do it, a lot of issues as it often does, but reworking some mechanics would help. I would like to see reanimation proticals work even when the unit os wiped. theoredically the models are just repairing and getting up not needing other members of the unit to be doing repairs. leave casualties on the board and add something like normal repair protocols on the turn the get knocked down and on a 6 even later in the battle they get back up.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine




 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


I asked one of my most regular opponents about this last night. he plays Necrons almost exclusively and comes over often to chuck some dice and down a few brews. points cost reductions could do it, a lot of issues as it often does, but reworking some mechanics would help. I would like to see reanimation proticals work even when the unit os wiped. theoredically the models are just repairing and getting up not needing other members of the unit to be doing repairs. leave casualties on the board and add something like normal repair protocols on the turn the get knocked down and on a 6 even later in the battle they get back up.

It does feel "wrong" in some ways to have resurrection protocols work even if the whole unit is wiped, the idea being that you are supposed to give each faction/unit certain weaknesses for an opponent to exploit. However, it seems that memo only got sent to half the codex writers, as Marines/Sisters/Ad-Mech seem to have a writer who every time a new model/book comes out asks themself "what weakness(es) should I try to fix in the faction today".

But it would fix the game to game points cost issue of warriors they have had for at least two editions, which is they either are too cheap if your opponent can't even do 10 wounds in a single activation or they are too expensive if your opponent can do 20+ wounds very reliably.

Side note: Thanks to this thread I want to hear "Every Release is Broken" to the tune of "Everything is Awesome".
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




For Reanimation it would also be good to allow it after taking casualties from any source (except possibly Morale) rather than only from an attack. It just seems really odd that a Warrior destroyed by a Volcano Cannon can stand up just fine but if it's next to an exploding Land Speeder they have no chance. Or that Smite just destroys them, especially given the Necrons are a race that fought and won a war against a race of psychic powerhouses.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: