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 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.


Absolutely correct. I should have specified.

Yep, I foresee nothing but MSU orkz. What is even more pathetic is that if Orkz were allowed to take mobz of 5....we would. I'd gladly take a full brigade of troop choices of 5 model beast snagga units or even just regular boyz. Congrats to GW for taking the ORIGINAL Horde faction and destroying any chance of playing horde. good work guys.

 Tomsug wrote:
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Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!

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 Jidmah wrote:
Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!


The pushing around part? Not so much. The hilarity that usually ensued? Absolutely! I remember walking into index 8th with a Kommando and Boyz horde and my opponents just laughing at the fact that I had all those models to deploy Or late in game when you are trying to rush things and your opponent starts just pushing your models in the general direction they need to be in It was annoying for sure but it was also a bit funny. I just am not a fan of GW nerfing boyz in general. Why couldn't they have just given us the Warbike treatment. Buff it but reduce maximum unit size to 20 or something. I mean, you could have still done a truly massive horde by taking multiple detachments but something better than making large mobz a physical nerf to your own army would have been preferable.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.


Absolutely correct. I should have specified.

Yep, I foresee nothing but MSU orkz. What is even more pathetic is that if Orkz were allowed to take mobz of 5....we would. I'd gladly take a full brigade of troop choices of 5 model beast snagga units or even just regular boyz. Congrats to GW for taking the ORIGINAL Horde faction and destroying any chance of playing horde. good work guys.


Two or three 10-model units running alongside each other to activate Mob Rule could be a thing. That's still a horde, just in a different form. Plus you mitigate blasts, get more Nobz, and multiple charge rolls are more reliable than one.

Full size units can still ignore morale, there's just a CP tax on it now. I think we'll still see single mobs of 30 around.

 Jidmah wrote:
Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!


Amen. This codex has me seriously looking at starting Orks for the first time because it cuts down on on time-wasting BS. Don't need 120+ basic infantry to get started, lots of rules streamlined.

I'm also really liking how there are some more meaningful differences between Ork horde and Tyranid horde now. The ones that ignore morale are easy to kill, and vice-versa.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:23:12


 
   
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 xttz wrote:


Two or three 10-model units running alongside each other to activate Mob Rule could be a thing. That's still a horde, just in a different form. Plus you mitigate blasts, get more Nobz, and multiple charge rolls are more reliable than one.

Full size units can still ignore morale, there's just a CP tax on it now. I think we'll still see single mobs of 30 around.


20 and 30 is not a horde. And "Mob Rule" is arguably the biggest nerf to the entire codex :( Horde style is at a minimum 120 Models. Horde style is you take so many models your opponent doesn't have enough Dakka to kill it fast enough. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't for everyone but it was a cool thing to do with orkz. I get that GW really wanted to minimize horde play style because its a barrier to entry for some and its hard to play against...but just limit unit size and give orkz corresponding buffs instead of fething nerfs.

Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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I actually sometimes liked playing a green tide for the fun of the horde. one of the funniest moments I had was against a space marine player in a tournament who had never played against orks. I got a 9 inch charge off with box cars, after the consolidation all 30 in, then i explained number of attack (ghaz was nearby goffs) and literally rolled several buckets of dice against the marines (who still almost lived) I will still probably play green tide in some open war missions for laughs and am practiced enough that a 180+ ork boyz list i can knock out a movement phase piloting it in under 5 min but looks like that skill will be atrophying this edition.

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6*20 is still an horde, and at 20 models you don't really suffer from morale. They killed 10 boyz? Oh no, I'm gonna (sometimes) lose a couple more!

Somehow there's this misunderstanding that after 10 comes 30, but there's actually 20 other possible numbers between them.

Find the size you prefer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:11:09


 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
Yep what Jidmah already said is true. 100 S4 bolter hits (assume AP-1 for ease) was 50 dead orkz, now its 33.3 dead orkz.

But I do want to point out 1 thing.

Old Orkz:
Big mek with KFF and 30 Boyz = 300pts

New Orkz:
Big Mek wtih KFF and 30 Boyz = 355pts

30 S4 Bolter HITS Vs both>

Old Orkz: 15 wounds and 10 dead Orkz. LD 20 no problems carry on.
New Orkz: 10 Wounds and 8.33 dead Orkz. LD -1. 5/6th chance you fail morale. lose 1 model, 21ish left, roll for morale and 3.5 more die. Total, just about 13.

The only way New boyz become more durable is if you completely ignore morale. To kill 30 old boyz with a 5++ it took 90 S4 hits. To kill 30 NEW boyz with a 6++ it takes 108
And here is the final shenanigans. To kill those guys with intercessors, this is your kill/point ratio Old Orkz: 4.5pts to kill 1pt of Orkz. New Orkz: 4.56pts to kill 1pt of orkz. And again, that excludes Morale.

So in general Orkz are less durable now for more points thanks to the triple whammy of price increase (minor), KFF nerf (Medium nerf) and Morale nerf (MAJOR NERF).



There's a finite number of shots on the table. When we do these math hammer exercises we always just assume something exists unmolested, is in range, has LOS, and can produce the required shots - that isn't reality though.

In any case - for more direct comps - 26 old boyz and KFF are ~270. 30 new boyz are 270.

100 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 22.2
100 * .666 * .333 = 22.2

The new boyz have no KFF, but are equal in losses. Except that you're not putting the cost of the KFF into the losses. You don't get to cover a lot else when you have a 30 man fully within. In reality you paid 10.4 points for each of those old boyz under KFF. The real loss is difficult to measure, because that KFF could go cover something else and that's another area math hammer fails.

Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.

An Ork force that leads with trukks and buggies and then reserves a 30 block until turn 2 or 3 gives the opponent a difficult unit to take out after they've taken losses and that ork unit is by no means useless while it throws up a banner or grabs octarius data twice by using a lateral jump to reposition them for the second grab ( and with good positioning the shaman shouldn't have to move much for the next cast ).

   
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Spoletta wrote:
6*20 is still an horde, and at 20 models you don't really suffer from morale. They killed 10 boyz? Oh no, I'm gonna (sometimes) lose a couple more!

Somehow there's this misunderstanding that after 10 comes 30, but there's actually 20 other possible numbers between them.

Find the size you prefer.


Its not lose 10 and than lose some to morale. Even with another unit nearby its lose 6 and have an 83% chance of failing morale. Lets look at it from a competitive stand point, Turn 1 Marine player kills 6 models in those mobz, assuming none are in teleporta or completely out of LOS. 5 will fail morale on average. That means he has killed 36 boyz from straight shooting and than managed to incidentally kill another 16-17 from Morale. Hell, lets reduce that, and say only 3 mobz were in LOS, thats still 8-9 dead boyz on top of the 18 he killed. I would argue losing 72-81pts from morale in a single turn a significant nerf when compared to last edition, to get a single mob to fail morale you needed to kill 13 at a minimum and hope there wasn't another mob nearby to take leadership from.

Morale wouldn't have been such a huge issue if Orkz had some kind of leadership mechanic to minimize its impact...like say...a Warboss or nobz unit nearby which can inflict 1MW to stop them from fleeing. Nope, instead we get a 2CP stratagem that lets you kill D3 boyz after they fail morale to stop them from fleeing, and guess what? On a unit of 20 boyz which loses 6 and has to take a morale check...You lose the same fething amount.

I'll flat out say it, the guys who wrote the ork codex had no idea wtf they were doing. Nothing synergizes correcty, situational buffs are ruined by how rare the situation is, buffs are barely anything and the nerfs are incredibly damaging. MSU orkz is going to be the only way to play orkz in the near future, that includes vehicle playstyle as well. You aren't goign to see many people running 3 Mek gunz in a single unit and god forbid if you bring Killakanz for whatever reason

MSU orkz which heavily favors the new models are going to be our competitive builds, specifically the new Squig riders. Warbikers and Koptas come out ok from this new edition as well.

 Tomsug wrote:
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instead of three units of 30 boys, you take 9 units of 10 boys. Mitigates morale, undercuts Blast weapons, hits plenty hard thanks to the upgraded offense, lives a bit better due to the upgraded toughness, and gives you more options in terms of MUS things, like actions, charging in different directions, etc.

Also, more free Nobs!

And if you want to use a brigade, the "nerfs" feed right into it … need lots of Troops options? 6 units of 10 boys please! I was taking them anyway! 3 heavy support choices? Hi, Mek Guns! Let me stick y'all 10" from the board corners to block Deep Strike units for virtually no cost, fill up required Heavy Support slots while I'm at it, and if you kill anything? Nice bonus! And I get HOW many Fast Attack slots? WOO HOO!

The heck with doom and gloom. You're Ork players! Take the stuff you like and throw 'em at a fight!
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.


A subtle effect worth pointing out is that Insane Bravery must be used before rolling morale (and is obviously single-use). However Breakin' Heads is multiple-use and lets you roll morale first, so you have a chance to pass before spending any CP.

   
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Vigo. Spain.

Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.


Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.

 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.

2 things.

1: I actually agree with you, the problem is that we have already had like half the codexs released and nobody else has anywhere near the morale issues as the orkz do. I have a sneaking suspicion Nidz will as well and that will be it. So yeah I agree, but since nobody else is suffering this way its a clear and present FETH YOU to orkz.

2: You've lost more Marines in 5 games of 9th to Morale than all of 8th....that is to say...you lost 1 model? Marines didn't lose models to morale in 8th unless something terribly wrong happened. And in 9th...you have to try really hard to fail morale. MSU Marines which is about 95% of Marine comp builds means you have to lose 3/5th of the unit to even have a chance at failing. LD8 on an elite unit is great, LD 7 on a horde unit is....crap. Its a helluva lot easier to kill 6 Ork boyz even at T5 and almost guarantee a failed morale check than it is to kill 3 Marines and have a 1/6 chance to fail morale.

21 S4 AP- hits to kill 6 Ork boyz, 36 hits to kill 3 Marines. And now those 6 Ork boyz cost the exact same as those 3 Space Marines.

 Tomsug wrote:
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I don't have the book yet as my box is delayed, but in the leaks Breakin' Heads is not once per game. If you don't want to gamble on 1 in 6 then you can auto pass, once. It's up to you to use the tools available. I have to use auto pass morale as Necrons all the time. Get used to it.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't have the book yet as my box is delayed, but in the leaks Breakin' Heads is not once per game. If you don't want to gamble on 1 in 6 then you can auto pass, once. It's up to you to use the tools available. I have to use auto pass morale as Necrons all the time. Get used to it.


The BRB strat is once per game, the new ork one is 2CP and it kills D3 boyz...or about what you would lose to morale anyway. Sacrificing 18-27pts at the cost of 2CP isn't really a good strat in my opinion.

 Tomsug wrote:
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 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 06:36:24


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SemperMortis wrote:
Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.


I think you can make something interesting or at least viable with the Bad Moon Klan trait. Two shots at 24 range even if they hit on 5+ is still fairly respectable, the equivalent of a single shot at 3+ which is what most troop units sport at that range and the three shots at 12 is still fairly good. Plus the extra little point of AP on a 6 to wound is always nice to throw around. The fact that this trait affects all dakka and all heavy weapons make it so that you up a bit the game of some other ork weapons carried by boys like big shoota and rokkit. That seems like an interesting idea to to me. It's not cutting edge competitive, but its far from looking like suicide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 07:10:39


 
   
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epronovost wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.


I think you can make something interesting or at least viable with the Bad Moon Klan trait. Two shots at 24 range even if they hit on 5+ is still fairly respectable, the equivalent of a single shot at 3+ which is what most troop units sport at that range and the three shots at 12 is still fairly good. Plus the extra little point of AP on a 6 to wound is always nice to throw around. The fact that this trait affects all dakka and all heavy weapons make it so that you up a bit the game of some other ork weapons carried by boys like big shoota and rokkit. That seems like an interesting idea to to me. It's not cutting edge competitive, but its far from looking like suicide.


I appreciate your optimism, but that kind of shooting isn't even in the ballpark of "fairly good", but pretty much completely worthless. 6.66 S4 AP0 hits really don't threaten anything (1 damage to marines, 3 dead guardsmen, almost no damage to anything durable) and is definitely not worth 90 points. I know this specific problem very well, because my plague marines are also armed with S4 AP0 bolters which rarely amount to anything ever.

If you are already running bad moons for other reasons, a 30" rokkit might be useful for a unit dedicated to camping your home objective, but outside of that I really see no reason to ever bring shoota boyz.

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 Jidmah wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.


You know a book will be decent when half the people say it is totally OP and the other half say it is trash.

   
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Haha, true.

Personally, I'm very happy with the book, outside of the boatload of rules oversights. But those will be FAQed and then not affect me for the next three years or so.

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Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.


You know a book will be decent when half the people say it is totally OP and the other half say it is trash.


I think overall the book is not terrible, its just ork troops are now bad. Gretchin are likely still the worst troop in the game which might have been ok when they were 3 points per model, but now its 5 points and they gained 1 toughness, lost 1 armor and got a morale debuff. personally i'll be running mostly ourrider detachments since outs strategems are pretty terrible so i have the cp to spend and I think squig buggy and biker armies will do well

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 12:59:10


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SemperMortis wrote:

Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.


Whether or not it does the same is up to other battlefield modifiers and dice.

   
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Shoota Boyz are bad. You can squint, but hard maths just laughs.

It may be thinking like a Space Marine - but the problem is the Boy is massively geared to punch things, even with a Shoota.

Lets imagine you call a Waaagh, because you are probably going to for the relevant 2 turns. So your regular Shoota Boy has 3 attacks. Considered base, he does twice as much damage to a Marine with his fists as he does with his Shoota in 12".

By contrast, the 4 attack Choppa Boy does 12 times as much damage with his Choppa as he does with his Slugga. So the Choppa boy gives up almost nothing by advancing to charge - while the Shoota gives up a third of his damage output.

In terms of output, the Shoota shooting and charging would expect to do 0.5 wounds to a Marine - while the Choppa does 0.7222 if he shoots his Slugga too, or 0.666 if he doesn't. At 40%~ this is an obvious and significant capability gap, which would perhaps make more sense if the Shoota boy did more damage from shooting (so could contribute at range, or in earlier turns) - but he doesn't. Using the Shoota as a pure shooting unit is horrible - doing just 0.166 wounds to a Marine. On an Intercessor thats less than an 18% return - utterly awful.

But things then get worse.

Its hard to quantify the +6" range for Bad Moons. But lets go with optimal circumstances where it won't matter (because throwing 2 shots at something in excess of 18-24 away is obviously meaningless). So you get 3 shots off with the -1AP on 6s to wound. This ups your shooting damage by 7/6. But as we said, 2/3rds of a turn's damage output versus Marines is from assault and you get no bonus there at all. So in an optimised turn of shooting and charging, your Bad Moons Shoota Boy is just 5.5% better than a regular non-Clan Shoota Boy.

You can tell where this is going - our friend the Goth Choppa Boy. Rather than 0.7222 wounds on a SM for shooting and charging, he gets 1.166 due to 6s being an extra hit and going from S4 to S5. (Or 0.66->1.11 for just assault) That is a 61% increase in output over the regular boy. (If we assume you would ditch the Slugga for advancing and charging, its a 66% uplift). These are not remotely comparable boosts.

We are at a possible 1.16 wounds to a Marine - versus just 0.5277 for the Shoota Boy. If you want to try and avoid combat, a Bad Moons Shoota Boy has to fire 17 times to roughly expect to do equal the damage to Marines caused by one 4 attack Goth Choppa on the charge. You could argue this is special pleading - but surely its pointing out the impossibility of Shootas ever achieving anything worthwhile *as Shootas*.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.


Whether or not it does the same is up to other battlefield modifiers and dice.


Conveniently going around the point being made. Ork boyz in anything but MSU aren't going to be a thing except in extremely rare niche cases. T5 does not magically make boyz durable just like AP-1 to choppas by itself doesn't make boyz great in CC. The Morale issue by itself destroyed the durability buff of T5, the KFF debuff wasn't as impactful but its points increase teamed with its nerf from a 5+ to a 6+ means its functionally useless. And here is the kicker, you can sit there and defend morale to the heavens because you can spend 2CP to make boyz ignore morale once a game or you can spend another 2 CP to make them suffer D3 mortal wounds and than pass morale but its not honest. And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.

 Tomsug wrote:
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I don't think I am?

AP1 does make Boyz better in melee.

Why not Snaggas?

- Boyz can come in 30s instead of 20
- When S5 will be overkill or not as useful as more bodies
- When you want to save 20 to 40 points on a single unit

A 6++ means you have 23.3 models, roughly. That 20 models is 220. You could instead have 28 boyz, which eclipses that invulnerable save.

20 Snaggas do 13.3 to marines. 28 Boyz do 14.

I do not know if the days of 120 to 150 boyz are gone, but I will bet that some people will find use for a 30 boy mob.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think I am?

AP1 does make Boyz better in melee.
Cool, This is known as a strawman argument. My wording was
AP-1 to choppas by itself doesn't make boyz great in CC
And AP-1 to choppas DOES NOT make ork boyz by itself "GREAT" in CC. 20 Boyz atm is 80 attacks, 53.3ish hits, 26.6ish wounds and 8.8 dmg vs Marines. 17.7 New Orkz (Same price) is 53.3 attacks, 35.5 hits 17.7 wounds and 8.8dmg vs Marines. Hooray its the same. AP-1 equals out for Orkz with the Price increase and the loss of +1 attack for 20+ models. So in smaller units its slightly better but it has to be because you can't take 30 choppa boyz anymore thanks to the nerfs to Orkz. Da jump them turn 1 or Deep strike turn 2? Good luck, you have about a 47% chance of getting that charge off, and if you fail? Congrats you just lost a 270pt unit for no benefit except as a distraction carnifex/bullet sponge.
Going to walk them up the board instead to save on CP? Still not going to be big units because a competent opponent will just trigger the 83% morale failure by simply killing 6 boyz which isn't that hard to do.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why not Snaggas?

- Boyz can come in 30s instead of 20
- When S5 will be overkill or not as useful as more bodies
- When you want to save 20 to 40 points on a single unit

A 6++ means you have 23.3 models, roughly. That 20 models is 220. You could instead have 28 boyz, which eclipses that invulnerable save.

20 Snaggas do 13.3 to marines. 28 Boyz do 14.

Another Strawman. I didn't say "Why not Snaggas" The actual question was
And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I do not know if the days of 120 to 150 boyz are gone, but I will bet that some people will find use for a 30 boy mob.
The days of 120-150 boyz might not be over, but the days of 30 boyz in a mob are absolutely over. Its a giant liability at this point.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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On beast snaggas I bought a couple of the new boxes so have 40 of them to play with once built and will be converting some older boyz. that said a 22% increase for +1str and ignore wounds on a 6 is questionably worth it. I have not put it on the table to try so will not call it terrible until i try it a few times but initial impression is probably not worth it in most lists. ap-1 for choppas is certainly somethign they gave orks but if i could have mod rule back to lose the ap-1 i would take that trade in a heartbeat

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Maybe the new orks should be run like DG, multiple detachments with grots or cheap msu as troops, and maxing out on the specialists stuff and characters. Something like a killer kan doesn't look that great even at the 40 odd points it costs, but when it is run alongside multiple other vehicles it could work, at least as long people don't take the anti vehicle secondary.

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SemperMortis wrote:


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.


There are still reasons to take larger mobs, primarily they're based around objectives. Namely Green Tide and Smash em Good or whatever the 'kill more in melee' one is called.

Fewer, larger units can make it a lot easier to score those secondary points. I definitely agree with you that I think "ghazzy surrounded by 200 boyz sitting under a kff with an attendant dok" is probably not a tournament winning setup, but I think you will see a competitive skew list making excellent use of kommandos and 'I've got a plan ladz' trait from blood axes doing some nasty nasty control gameplay business. Between dead sneaky, ive got a plan ladz, infiltrating kommandos and da jump, blood axes can have waves and waves of cheap T5 bodies basically popping up like daisies all over the battlefield. don't know if it'd be worth taking 30, for the gameplay you want to do you probably want 20-man boyz mobs and your kommando mobs are gonna be 15 of course. But it's still 100% something people are gonna make use of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 14:30:03


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SemperMortis wrote:

Another Strawman. I didn't say "Why not Snaggas" The actual question was
And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.


*sigh*

It's a math hammer failing to take a full KFF and apply it only to a single unit. That's not how it would work - especially not now that it covers far more ground. And you kind of just totally ran by the point that boyz are cost efficient enough that they don't need to 6++ to make up for what Snaggas have.

We've done enough math hammer so I won't bother diving into the rest. If one is willing they can construct whatever scenario they think proves their point.

   
 
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