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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Disgusting Resilient does't help them against D1 weapons anymore.

"But they have two wou..." ... all Marines* have 2 wounds. That was a given.


Yes, and toughness 5. So what you wanted to say is that plague marines are in fact more resilient due to small arms weapons both compared to before and compared to other marines, just don't like it for arbitrary reasons.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?
This is the same company that decided to showcase how tough Plague Marines are by somehow making them more vulnerable to D1 weapons, so should we be surprised?

They became 33% more durable against D1 weapons by going from 1W to 2W, there was never a 2W FNP Plague Marine unit.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

My point is all Marines got W2. It's not something unique to Plague Marines. If it were, I wouldn't bring it up.

All Marines overall got more resilient, but the specialist rules for resilience that the Death Guard have didn't make them any more resilient against the things they should be resistant to.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point is all Marines got W2. It's not something unique to Plague Marines. If it were, I wouldn't bring it up.

All Marines overall got more resilient, but the specialist rules for resilience that the Death Guard have didn't make them any more resilient against the things they should be resistant to.


Except for the extra point of toughness they have over all other marines, of course. And for the few weapons that actually kill both kinds of marines equally well, I doubt that you will find any support in the fluff showing that plague marines shrug them off while marines get riddled with bullets and die.

The one truth is that a plague marine are more resilient than a regular marine when it matters, and that's all that counts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 11:05:14


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I feel like this pole was a bit premature. now that we see the big picture between the ponts cost increase, the loss of mob rule, our only protection for large mobs (kff) being nerfed to 6++ and 2CP for a 5++ one turn vs shooting and then burning up i think its safe to say ork boyz are now a tax on the codex. I'll be modding some boyz to snagga boyz at least the punch better and even then probably not worth the points just a little better.

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delete


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote:
Why are you running 30 man blobs again?


Skew. Light vehicles don't appreciate chip damage. Giving something to draw out that incidental fire will keep buggies and trukks alive.

Also, a Da Jump play as well as Weirdboys cast 1 more with 20 Boyz near.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 13:51:46


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Oh, I agree, if you are trying to play competitively, you won't be running 30 boyz mobz anymore. At best you are going to be fielding MSU ork boyz, and more likely than that, Boyz are going to be 3x10 (Including free Nob) tax units taken to satisfy the troop requirement in order to get as many of the new squig riders and warbikes as you possibly can.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
delete


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote:
Why are you running 30 man blobs again?


Skew. Light vehicles don't appreciate chip damage. Giving something to draw out that incidental fire will keep buggies and trukks alive.

Also, a Da Jump play as well as Weirdboys cast 1 more with 20 Boyz near.


Three squads of 10 boys should draw small arms fire just as well as one unit of 30, I'd think. People might think of them as being less dangerous, and in a way they are, having lost the +1 attack that they used to have, but picking up -1 AP instead … 30 attacks at AP -1 vs 40 at AP- comes out close to the same, but, you get a few more options with the Multiple Small Unit (MSU) approach. (also three times as many Power Klaws.)

You don't get as many lads to Jump, true, but I'm not sure if the +1 to cast is still in there. I haven't seen a spoiler for the Weirdboy yet, but I *hear* that it's gone. Need a codex on hand to know for sure.
   
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yes, the wierdboy lost the + to cast for models so the jump is harder to pull off. you forgot to mention the morale issue too lots of losses that way now. also boyz lost being able to have a melta bomb

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
yes, the wierdboy lost the + to cast for models so the jump is harder to pull off. you forgot to mention the morale issue too lots of losses that way now. also boyz lost being able to have a melta bomb


And the bones relic only helps with witch fire spells apparently. To me da jump is dead. Fists of gork on the other hand pairs super well with brutal but kunning (can the fist of gork extra attacks generate additional attack if the FoG extra attacks don’t go through ? Can’t remember the druk jurisprudence exactly that made the cut in the core rules).

I don’t see myself player ork psychers much though, at least not for now. I want instead big mek mega armour with one shot KFF and the relic shoota. The rest of the hq slots are best used for our melee warbosses IMHO.

But I am certain that some players will make great use of our psychic spells. Just not me

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 20:44:39


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A Weirdboy is potentially getting 2 casts for 70 points. Yes you'll probably want to keep a CP to reroll that Da Jump roll if necessary - but that's hardly apocalyptic for an 83%~ chance to have it go off. The idea this is dead seems... incredible to me.

(Edit, initially said 3 casts which seemed a bit bananas, someone was claiming they knew 2 and could cast 2 base, rather than 1+1 for having 20 models in 12" casts. Still very potent for very few points.)

I just don't really get the negativity. My reading of this book is that its taken an army that was +/- there anyway, and just made it significantly better. We live I guess in the shadow of DE and Ad Mech, and I'm not sure its going to be quite as obnoxious as them - although I could be wrong. I think its better than anything else released so far.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 21:26:32


 
   
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The army overall is efficient, but some things have become very unreliable, for example non witch fire psychic spells.

Warbikers, snagga riders, the hq sguigriders, are just really underpriced ATM, so a lot of other things will get pushed gradually as players find what doesn’t work, what works and what works even better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 22:17:08


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 G00fySmiley wrote:
I feel like this pole was a bit premature. now that we see the big picture between the ponts cost increase, the loss of mob rule, our only protection for large mobs (kff) being nerfed to 6++ and 2CP for a 5++ one turn vs shooting and then burning up i think its safe to say ork boyz are now a tax on the codex. I'll be modding some boyz to snagga boyz at least the punch better and even then probably not worth the points just a little better.


I feel like that is a very premature take.

All the changes look harsh, and they are, but boyz have been the heart and soul of ork lists since the beginning of time. They die and droves, and will continue to, but if they are getting shot to gak then something else is getting in. And if enough boyz get then praise Gork and Mork!

In 9th units get obliterated- boyz are no exception! The opposing army (in my experience) always kills a ton of ork stuff- you just have kill more! (and I guess hold lame objectives, but whatever, orks are good and holding the enemy back long enough to score)

 
   
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I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:05:13


   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.


Absurdly good....like it was last edition, or the edition before that when it was a 4+ Cover save? And if you want to take the Morkanaut KFF you now have to pay CP to get a super heavy detachment for it.

Also, that stratagem to buff it to what it currently is albeit with a bigger footprint...yeah its a once a game stratagem and after that turn it blows up the KFF so you can't use its 6+ again either. And just to add insult to injury, they increased its price by 10pts.

You are fundamentally wrong across the board with the KFF. Its a massive nerf to a unit that didn't need it. Hell, I used my KFF Big mek to guard my Mek Gunz artillery park...which are also no longer a thing thanks to unit size restriction and Morale becoming unbearable for large units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.


you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:


you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.


And its a once a game stratagem GW went well and truly out of their way to remind players to feth off when it came to HQ selection regarding Big Mekz with KFF.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
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 G00fySmiley wrote:
you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.


So it does. I still think it's a worthwhile investment. It makes it so 8MM shots go from killing a trukk to not killing a trukk. Getting advantage on trades early game will let you outlast the opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
You are fundamentally wrong across the board with the KFF. Its a massive nerf to a unit that didn't need it. Hell, I used my KFF Big mek to guard my Mek Gunz artillery park...which are also no longer a thing thanks to unit size restriction and Morale becoming unbearable for large units.


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 13:57:30


   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Artillery parking lot is already gone by denying mek gunz to act like individual units once deployed. This, plus bad morale and rule of three means that it's extremely unlikely to see more than 3 mek gunz in a list now.

6++ KFF now is pure garbage.

Morkanaut could easily have it but since it's LoW now we'll see way less nauts on the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 19:41:18



 
   
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I might go and add Skulls from the ol Box O Skull bitz and upgrade my now extinct 'Ard Boyz into Beast Snaggaz.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.


I get it. You don't like change, but individual models that are quite tough on their own also under a KFF warp how you can approach the game.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.


I get it. You don't like change, but individual models that are quite tough on their own also under a KFF warp how you can approach the game.


Nu orks aren't really tough tho, they are brittle hard, as in if you wound them they still die in droves, and just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them still doesn't turn the orks into anything other than brittle. If we still had the old wound chart, then yes ork boys would'be more tough but overall...

As an aside, you can do something similiar , and ironically better with CSM dark apostle ilusion prayer and cultists, pay only 5 pts more with disciples to guarantee 2+ prayers and have a better overall profile than a mek with KFF.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them

Can we all stop with the 1/6th? Saying they got 1/6th less effective is no more true than saying Ork Boys got 25% more durable because T5 is 25% higher than T4.

S4 wounds T4 3/6, S4 wounds T5 2/6, that makes S4 weapons 33% less effective against Boys and makes Boys 50% more durable against S4.
   
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Cheaper T4 bodies with cheaper sources of 5++ or native 6++ are certainly more durable than more expensive T5 bodies with more expensive sources of 6++.

Not to mention vehicles that counted as individual units once deployed. The same models are now basically just taken solo, for a good reason.

Overall the army looks less durable than before, but I mean this about units that existed in the previous codex. Some of the new stuff looks pretty tough and in some cases even significantly undercosted and it's thanks to them that now orks can be considered more durable than before on average. New stuff hasn't been released yet, so at the moment I can't consider it.


 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them

Can we all stop with the 1/6th? Saying they got 1/6th less effective is no more true than saying Ork Boys got 25% more durable because T5 is 25% higher than T4.

S4 wounds T4 3/6, S4 wounds T5 2/6, that makes S4 weapons 33% less effective against Boys and makes Boys 50% more durable against S4.


That are some serious mental gymnastics right there.
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less, just because you count from the other angle makes your statement not any more accurate.

And indeed thanks to the new wounding chart since 8th there has been virtually no effect on S3 weapons aswell. Bolters still in many cases ignore the armor of the boy aswell.
So no my statement still stands.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less...

One sixth of what? 50%/33%=/=17%=/=83%.

The difference between wounding on 2s vs 3s and 5s vs 6s is not the same, the absolute difference is irrelevant to how much tougher they are, only the relative difference matters. Your 1/6 nonsense only serves to confuse.

1/4 and 1/6 are equally irrelevant if you want to understand how T5 changes the durability of Boys.

   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less...

One sixth of what? 50%/33%=/=17%=/=83%.

The difference between wounding on 2s vs 3s and 5s vs 6s is not the same, the absolute difference is irrelevant to how much tougher they are, only the relative difference matters. Your 1/6 nonsense only serves to confuse.

1/4 and 1/6 are equally irrelevant if you want to understand how T5 changes the durability of Boys.



Once again:

 Jidmah wrote:


Mork, can we please stop this discussion, it makes my brain hurt.

When you hit T4 100 times with a bolter, you deal 50 wounds. When you hit T5 100 times with a bolter you deal 33.33 wounds. Compared to before, you now deal 33.33/50 = 66.66% damage now. This a decrease of 16.66 wounds or 33.33% less damage taken.
When you have 100 T4 wounds, you need 200 bolter hits to wound all of them. When you have 100 T5 wounds, you need 300 bolter hits to wound them all. 300 hits are 300/200=150% of what you had to shoot before, so you need 50% more shots than before to kill them.
Both numbers are right, they are just different perspectives on the same thing.

If you are comparing efficiency you need to multiply either value for new boyz by 8/9 = 88.88% because their efficiency dropped per point. Ork boyz now cost 9/8=125.5% of what they have costed before, an increase of 12.5%.

Seriously, it's just percentages.


So yes, vit0988 is right, but they suck at explaining it.

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Yep what Jidmah already said is true. 100 S4 bolter hits (assume AP-1 for ease) was 50 dead orkz, now its 33.3 dead orkz.

But I do want to point out 1 thing.

Old Orkz:
Big mek with KFF and 30 Boyz = 300pts

New Orkz:
Big Mek wtih KFF and 30 Boyz = 355pts

30 S4 Bolter HITS Vs both>

Old Orkz: 15 wounds and 10 dead Orkz. LD 20 no problems carry on.
New Orkz: 10 Wounds and 8.33 dead Orkz. LD -1. 5/6th chance you fail morale. lose 1 model, 21ish left, roll for morale and 3.5 more die. Total, just about 13.

The only way New boyz become more durable is if you completely ignore morale. To kill 30 old boyz with a 5++ it took 90 S4 hits. To kill 30 NEW boyz with a 6++ it takes 108
And here is the final shenanigans. To kill those guys with intercessors, this is your kill/point ratio Old Orkz: 4.5pts to kill 1pt of Orkz. New Orkz: 4.56pts to kill 1pt of orkz. And again, that excludes Morale.

So in general Orkz are less durable now for more points thanks to the triple whammy of price increase (minor), KFF nerf (Medium nerf) and Morale nerf (MAJOR NERF).


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
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Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 15:54:14


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