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Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






The catch is that blitz bomber doesn:'t have any blast weapons.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Stay on topic and don't be rude - ingtær.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 19:47:04


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





If I were going to build around boyz --

Spoiler:

Blood Axes

Big Mek KFF, Finkin' Cap
Warboss in MA, Trait Relic of choice
Weirdboy, Gitbonez, Warpath, Fist

2x30 Boyz ( one Madboyz )
2x20 Grots
Runtherd
15 Kommandos
3 MANZ, Rokkits
Painboy, Orderly
Snazzwagon, Souped Up
5 Stormboyz
3 Deffkoptas
4 Lootas, KMB Spanner
2x2 Traktor Kannons


Green Tide should score 14 ( 5, 3, 3, 3 ). ROD should be an easy 12.

But.... morale, right? Why are people talking about 10 man Kommandos / Stormboyz? Same problem. What happens when you have Grisly Trophies on and you lose a buggy or two?

The tools are there, but no one wants to use them. Throughout this thread people have stated how bad morale is and how little CP many Orks start the game with.

The list above starts with 10 or 11 CP. That's more than enough for Breakin' Heads and Auto-Pass for two rounds, which is all you'll need for the two blocks. You've got Blood Axes for the ability to fall back from combat and charge deeper in. Couple that with a lucky Madboyz and Get Stuck In you could see them pile-in 9 friggin' inches. If they're not killy enough them Goffs.

No Prisoners only gives up 8 if they can't clear the grots - 12 otherwise. Grind Them Down is a risk, but the options for them to do that involve reducing shooting to the mobs up front.

KFF and Doc just give a little more edge on survivability. Why not Snaggas? It costs me 1.4 points per boy for KFF and I have flexibility for 5++. If my opponent is heavy shooting like Admech then I'm popping KFF Boosta. If they're melee like DE or BA? I'll keep the 6++ in melee.

This puts me at 14 models from 20 Vanguard using Enriched Rounds, 5 from a full Squig Buggy unit, 11 from 10 Halberd Interceptors ( FNP basically useless ). What do Interceptors do to buggies? About 17 wounds - with a pre charge smite that's probably two buggies.

An alternative could be to use the same expectation for propping up morale, skipping the KFF & Doc, and going mechanized alongside buggies. Do note that this is a random musing and probably isn't the most optimized for this style of list. I'd wager it will win you games - maybe not top 10 at a GT though.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword....

I can't help but feel like the advance edition of the codex was like. A rough draft. Just so much weird gak in there.


Did you know you can use your one per detachment specialist mob to increase the AP of all blast weapons on the blitza bommer by 1?


I'm guessing they mean the Burna. I wonder if we'll have to wait another month for the FAQ....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 00:34:02


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






having played with Green Tide a few games...I'm never ever choosing it again as a secondary. It's soooooo easy for your opponent to lock you out of it by like. Turn 2.

Your opponent needs to kill 20 grots and 5 kommandos to lock your list out of Green Tide.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
having played with Green Tide a few games...I'm never ever choosing it again as a secondary. It's soooooo easy for your opponent to lock you out of it by like. Turn 2.

Your opponent needs to kill 20 grots and 5 kommandos to lock your list out of Green Tide.


Out of the 5 point, but not the 3. It really helps to go second as well so Kommandos can come on and score at end of round. I would anticipate one round at 5 ( at some point in the game ) and 3 for 3 more rounds then none in the last. Even if you're only 4x3 you're still at 12, which seems easier to maintain than engage sometimes.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






The problems with this list:

Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.

Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.

Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.

Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.

Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.

Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.

2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...


All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/05 06:53:31


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Perhaps its my ignorance, but how are you getting across the table? Because it seems like the bulk of those units are not doing anything until turn 3 (still a significantly risk if you go with strategic reserves etc) - which means most good armies will just be able to take them to bits on their terms.

I'm not sure you'd expect to get dramatically more points from Greentide than you would from a standard engage on all fronts. Killing 20~ boyz, 20 grots and 5 Kommandos shouldn't prove that much of a challenge.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

If you want a horde list go for as many 5 man squads you can get and make the Deathskulls. Tankbustas, stormboyz, kommandos, burnaboyz, maybe lootas, then some gretchins. Cavalry guys, both regular and characters, will be the heavy hitters.

60ish infantry orks in 5 man squads, gretchins, 9+ squig riders, 3+ squig rider characters can be a solid back bone of an horde oriented ork list. Meganobz only with Tellyporta.

If you really want 60 boyz, go for 6x10 instead of 2x30. Same with gretchins, take multiple min squads instead of 20+ man blobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 10:48:30



 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?

   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Crimson wrote:
So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?

Spoiler:




 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Galas wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?

Spoiler:





I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword...
That is equal parts bizarre and completely unsurprising.

 Crimson wrote:
I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.
Yeah I thought they'd be bigger.

They work quite well. Surprising them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/05 12:14:03


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Crimson wrote:
So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?


Essentially what you get for those 2 extra points is very much worth 2 extra points, but the basic boy is not worth 9. In the end you have a 110 points unit which is outperformed by kommandoz, stormboyz and warbikers because they can form cheaper units with similar punch. They also can't be trukkboyz.

I'm currently trying to make them work as traditional battlewagon boyz, but my games with them so far haven't been stellar. They play like pure slugga&choppa nobz units, which have never been something to write home about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/05 13:33:39


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 koooaei wrote:
The problems with this list:

Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.

Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.

Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.

Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.

Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.

Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.

2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...


All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.


- Madboyz would get the BRB autopass. I didn't intend on redeploy, but worth noting - thanks.
- Painboy wouldn't roll on D2 weapons. If a TVC hit the unit I'd roll on the mortal wounds and let the rest ride. He exists for Vanguard, Sisters, melee in general, etc. If people are putting D2 guns into boyz with koptas, kannons, and wagon then I'm either really dead or doing well ( ).
- MANZ would tellyporta
- Snazz wagon was more, because that's the one I have ( ), but the secondary goal is to also take some heat off mek gunz
- Grots serve the Green Tide, keep crap out of the back field. They're so low on the priority list that they should go untouched.
- Mek Gunz are a hide, pop-out, and die unit. Math dictates that a full unit of laser chickens should shoot them, which means 2.7 D3+3 wounds. It will take the first two to kill one and the third was insurance. AC chickens will be -1D, so, they want to go all in as well. If they want to put that energy in and chance leaving a gun on the table then that's a risk they take.

   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
The problems with this list:

Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.

Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.

Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.

Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.

Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.

Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.

2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...


All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.


- Madboyz would get the BRB autopass. I didn't intend on redeploy, but worth noting - thanks.
- Painboy wouldn't roll on D2 weapons. If a TVC hit the unit I'd roll on the mortal wounds and let the rest ride. He exists for Vanguard, Sisters, melee in general, etc. If people are putting D2 guns into boyz with koptas, kannons, and wagon then I'm either really dead or doing well ( ).
- MANZ would tellyporta
- Snazz wagon was more, because that's the one I have ( ), but the secondary goal is to also take some heat off mek gunz
- Grots serve the Green Tide, keep crap out of the back field. They're so low on the priority list that they should go untouched.
- Mek Gunz are a hide, pop-out, and die unit. Math dictates that a full unit of laser chickens should shoot them, which means 2.7 D3+3 wounds. It will take the first two to kill one and the third was insurance. AC chickens will be -1D, so, they want to go all in as well. If they want to put that energy in and chance leaving a gun on the table then that's a risk they take.


- A single 2 CP autopass is not a reliable way to fix Morale
- People WILL be putting D2 shots on your Boyz if their D2+ weapons are shooting <S8t whilst also making your painboy useless as a compensation
- Tellyporta with a 9" rerolling charge is still not realiable
- Green Tide is a bad secondary that forces you to take the worst unit in the codex at a 20 size, at this point you're doubling down on being bad
- Mek Gunz only make sense as Freebooterz to trigger the armywide +1 to Hit. Nobody is scared by 45 points unreliable shooting unit that dies to anti-infantry weapons so there's no way anybody decent would shoot with "full laser chickens" units at them>

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/05 15:05:44


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
Perhaps its my ignorance, but how are you getting across the table? Because it seems like the bulk of those units are not doing anything until turn 3 (still a significantly risk if you go with strategic reserves etc) - which means most good armies will just be able to take them to bits on their terms.

I'm not sure you'd expect to get dramatically more points from Greentide than you would from a standard engage on all fronts. Killing 20~ boyz, 20 grots and 5 Kommandos shouldn't prove that much of a challenge.


Engage is 2 for 3 and 3 for 4. Green Tide is 3 for 2, which is covered by grots. Killing 20 Grots you can't see is a challenge all it's own let alone dealing with Boyz in front.

Evil Sunz would make it a bit faster, but if I'm not engaged until turn 3 I'm way ahead on primary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

- A single 2 CP autopass is not a reliable way to fix Morale
- People WILL be putting D2 shots on your Boyz if their D2+ weapons are shooting <S8t whilst also making your painboy useless as a compensation
- Tellyporta with a 9" rerolling charge is still not realiable
- Green Tide is a bad secondary that forces you to take the worst unit in the codex at a 20 size, at this point you're doubling down on being bad
- Mek Gunz only make sense as Freebooterz to trigger the armywide +1 to Hit. Nobody is scared by 45 points unreliable shooting unit that dies to anti-infantry weapons so there's no way anybody decent would shoot with "full laser chickens" units at them>


- Why isn't it a reliable way to fix morale? Orks have CP to burn and little to use it on most of the time. What it isn't is a reliable way to fix morale for 90+ boyz.
- People are way overstating D2 shooting. Let's look at popular lists for D2 shooting:

- I think a problem people have in their games is that they're too worried about connecting units immediately. Dropping MANz nearby into cover and not charging until the next turn is a valid useful play.
- Green Tide gives me a lot of cheap wounds that could be scoring one or two secondaries and keeping enemy RODs out of my backfield.
- Anti-Infantry weapons are generally shot ranged ( relatively speaking ). You aren't ever shooting them with those guns in a Hammerhead deploy and you're going to struggle to be in range and outside charge range of boyz on other deployments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 15:47:24


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
If I were going to build around boyz --

Spoiler:

Blood Axes

Big Mek KFF, Finkin' Cap
Warboss in MA, Trait Relic of choice
Weirdboy, Gitbonez, Warpath, Fist

2x30 Boyz ( one Madboyz )
2x20 Grots
Runtherd
15 Kommandos
3 MANZ, Rokkits
Painboy, Orderly
Snazzwagon, Souped Up
5 Stormboyz
3 Deffkoptas
4 Lootas, KMB Spanner
2x2 Traktor Kannons


Green Tide should score 14 ( 5, 3, 3, 3 ). ROD should be an easy 12.

But.... morale, right? Why are people talking about 10 man Kommandos / Stormboyz? Same problem. What happens when you have Grisly Trophies on and you lose a buggy or two?

The tools are there, but no one wants to use them. Throughout this thread people have stated how bad morale is and how little CP many Orks start the game with.

The list above starts with 10 or 11 CP. That's more than enough for Breakin' Heads and Auto-Pass for two rounds, which is all you'll need for the two blocks. You've got Blood Axes for the ability to fall back from combat and charge deeper in. Couple that with a lucky Madboyz and Get Stuck In you could see them pile-in 9 friggin' inches. If they're not killy enough them Goffs.

No Prisoners only gives up 8 if they can't clear the grots - 12 otherwise. Grind Them Down is a risk, but the options for them to do that involve reducing shooting to the mobs up front.

KFF and Doc just give a little more edge on survivability. Why not Snaggas? It costs me 1.4 points per boy for KFF and I have flexibility for 5++. If my opponent is heavy shooting like Admech then I'm popping KFF Boosta. If they're melee like DE or BA? I'll keep the 6++ in melee.

This puts me at 14 models from 20 Vanguard using Enriched Rounds, 5 from a full Squig Buggy unit, 11 from 10 Halberd Interceptors ( FNP basically useless ). What do Interceptors do to buggies? About 17 wounds - with a pre charge smite that's probably two buggies.

An alternative could be to use the same expectation for propping up morale, skipping the KFF & Doc, and going mechanized alongside buggies. Do note that this is a random musing and probably isn't the most optimized for this style of list. I'd wager it will win you games - maybe not top 10 at a GT though.


KFF is useless, will only cover a unit or two and won't do much. You have 2 blocks of 30 boyz. You say "i'll just use CP to save them from morale!" ok, well that is all well and good for turn 1, turn 2 you just burned 4 CP to save 2 units from losing morale which left your grotz exposed, and you only need to kill 3 of them to force a 5/6th morale check. God help you if they kill the runtherd first, because than your little guys are running on 2s, and if they peg 10 models, its on 3s. To put it bluntly, you are going to lose a lot of models to morale turn 1, and if they go first you wont score your objectives.

You have no alpha strike/threats except the 1 blob of kommandos, 5 Stormboyz and 3 Deffkoptas. Since your Blood Axes you won't be benefiting much from CC bonuses which means your opponent can do what he wants turn 1 as far as target priority. You also have no shooting worth a damn, and spending 10pts on "souped Up speshul" its useless. That is literally 10pts spent to get 2 extra shots from your main gun at S5, Ap-2 and 2dmg. That works out to 0.66 extra hits a turn. beyond that you have 4 mek gunz in 2 batteries which leaves them with a 50/50 chance to lose both if 1 dies. (You are better off using auto-pass on mek gunz than boyz). and 4 Traktor kannonz aren't much of a threat beyond plinking wounds. 4 of them against a vehicle works out to 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and at -2AP that is about 6dmg a turn to a sub T8 vehicle. And the lootas? yeah, they are irrelevant for the most part. My comp list would steam roll this list turn 1, and the only way you would get points out of the game would be if you went 1st.

 Crimson wrote:
So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?


Jidmah covered it pretty well. A beastsnagga at 11pts is better value than a Boy at 9pts. The problem is that you then have to build around beast kulture, IE beastbosses instead of warbosses. Next, they still have the same damn morale issues as boyz but its more damaging now that the models are 11pts each. You can't use the majority of the codex with Beast Boyz, specifically the only competitive use I have for boyz right now, which is Trukk Boyz, can't be done on Beastboyz. And finally, and most importantly, while a Beastboy at 11pts is better value than that Boy at 9...the boy isn't worth 9 to begin with. With how crippling Morale is for boyz, they could go back to 7ppm and they still wouldn't be an auto-spam/include.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:

KFF is useless, will only cover a unit or two and won't do much. You have 2 blocks of 30 boyz. You say "i'll just use CP to save them from morale!" ok, well that is all well and good for turn 1, turn 2 you just burned 4 CP to save 2 units from losing morale which left your grotz exposed, and you only need to kill 3 of them to force a 5/6th morale check. God help you if they kill the runtherd first, because than your little guys are running on 2s, and if they peg 10 models, its on 3s. To put it bluntly, you are going to lose a lot of models to morale turn 1, and if they go first you wont score your objectives.

You have no alpha strike/threats except the 1 blob of kommandos, 5 Stormboyz and 3 Deffkoptas. Since your Blood Axes you won't be benefiting much from CC bonuses which means your opponent can do what he wants turn 1 as far as target priority. You also have no shooting worth a damn, and spending 10pts on "souped Up speshul" its useless. That is literally 10pts spent to get 2 extra shots from your main gun at S5, Ap-2 and 2dmg. That works out to 0.66 extra hits a turn. beyond that you have 4 mek gunz in 2 batteries which leaves them with a 50/50 chance to lose both if 1 dies. (You are better off using auto-pass on mek gunz than boyz). and 4 Traktor kannonz aren't much of a threat beyond plinking wounds. 4 of them against a vehicle works out to 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and at -2AP that is about 6dmg a turn to a sub T8 vehicle. And the lootas? yeah, they are irrelevant for the most part. My comp list would steam roll this list turn 1, and the only way you would get points out of the game would be if you went 1st.



Grots won't typically be visible, so I imagine you'd use Rukks for that if you have them, which one would kill a bit less than 4 so I'll lose another 3.5. They're still scoring GT unless you commit more and every shot you put across the table is keeping me going up front. Runtherd isn't ever going to be an option to shoot.

Again, Snazz is what I have so that's the upgrade I took to burn points.

I don't think alpha is the goal or need. It's making you work hard to trade. I will gladly spend the 4CP to make you work harder for it. Green Tide might be an anchor that I can trade for more power mid-table, but that isn't really the point of the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For gaks and giggles - Goffs

Spoiler:
BM, KFF
Warboss MA
Makari

2x29 Boyz
10 Grots
10 Kommandos
5 MANZ, Rokkits, maybe Trukkboyz
Trukk
Painboy
3 Koptas
Rukk, Nitro
5 Stormboyz
4 Lootas, KMB
2x3 Mek Gunz


Makari keeps the Gunz safe and more problem units to deal with.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 03:49:06


   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.

I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 05:03:07


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.

I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.


Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






6*10 is less vulnerable to morale and is much more flexible scoring-wise.
Lootas are an odd choice - especially for goffs. I'd probably just go for another buggy instead - especially since you actually own one.
Big mek is better off being upgraded to megamek with shiny shoota. He adds this needed ranged support and is still decent even for goffs - you own meganobz anyways - the only difference between a megamek and meganob is kff/tellyporta slapped on top.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 06:48:17


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.

I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.


Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.


Not really. A unit of 30 suffering from 6 casualties will fail morale on a roll of 2+, which then causes another 5 casualties from morale. If that unit of 30 takes further 6 casualties to drop to 13, you will lose another 1 from morale and another 4 from attrition unless mob rule kicks in. In this worst case 12 unsaved wounds killed 22 ork boyz.
The same 6 casualties to a unit of 10 will cause just 1.5 casualties from morale and is simply wiped out the next time getting shot without adding extra damage to your opponent's weapons and potentially making some overkill disappear.

So splitting them into 10's means you suffer a lot less from attrition and is essentially the same/better as getting a free breakin' eads on each of your mobs. Also, free nobz do not just add extra wounds and attacks, but a PK is usually still a better place to sink points than most kustom jobs. If you want to kill something you just pile multiple boyz units onto one target. Interruption is an issue, but you can mitigate that by just barely keeping most of the second mob out of engagement rage to force your opponent to direct most of their attacks towards a mob that has already fought. Then again, even with a mob of 30, you most likely won't be fighting with more than 10-12 models anyway because of the 1/2" rule.

If you are still not convinced, what benefits does a mob of 30 actually have? Unless you are running goff, there is essentially no stratagem support for boyz and the painboy/kff combo is dead anyways since morale will kill more boyz than saved by those two.
On the other hand, there is a boatload of argument for bringing small units - they can be in multiple places, can perform multiple actions, hold multiple objectives, are less affected by chokepoints, less damage from blasts, can't be blended by single high volume of attacks unit. There are surely more, but you get the idea.

It's also worth pointing out that Semper is giving advice for winning in a highly competitive environment, while you seem to be aiming for more of a casual-competitive game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 08:01:59


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Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent. The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.

Arguably however Trukk Boyz are now a more reliable (and, especially if you think the weirdboy isn't doing anything else, dramatically cheaper) method of doing the same thing.

Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.

I think the bigger problem is just that killing lots of Boyz remains not especially difficult even with the bump up to T5. A 5++/6+++ will undoubtedly help - but still. You also can't really hide 30 boyz. (Not really convinced you can hide 20 grots unless terrain is especially conducive to it, or your opponents list is very static.)
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.

I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.


Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units.


To expand on Jidmah's post the base 9E morale rules are heavily flawed in favour of MSU, and can have very unintuitive outcomes for Orks especially. The one most obvious problem is that morale punishes survival over loss. Combat attrition gets stronger the more models that don't die, rather than how many that do. For example:
If a 30-strong unit loses 14 models in a turn it only loses 2 or 3 models on average to attrition.
if a 30-strong unit loses 5 models and fails morale it can expect at least 4 more gone to combat attrition.

There's probably still a case for large units of Boyz outside highly-competitive games, such as when you want to make the most from Da Jump or a Tellyporta. But I'd be reluctant to use more than one, as their usefulness is capped by how often you can use stratagems like Insane Bravery to keep them running.
   
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Tyel wrote:
Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent.

I don't want to pick this apart, but just getting off Da Jump and the first turn charge is 58.33% * 47.84% = 27.91%. Or in other words, it will fail in three out of four games, before you even consider screening or terrain.

So no, that is not a viable strategy by any measure, no matter how competitive your meta is.

I don't think there is any reason to run 30 boyz outside of crusade.

The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.

I have just proven that bringing 30 boyz is less survivable than bringing 3x10.

Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.

They will shoot every mob to cause six or more casualties and then wipe the one that is in the best position. You then take your once-per-game stratagem so save 5 boyz and will be at full mercy of morale for the rest of the game. Or you just take units of 10 and ignore morale.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 09:27:33


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Save a CP to reroll on Da Jump and you are up to an 83%~ chance to cast. I don't disagree that 40%~ is unreliable though.

Basically I think footslogging boyz risk being too slow to do anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 09:20:24


 
   
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Tyel wrote:
Save a CP to reroll on Da Jump and you are up to an 83%~ chance to cast. I don't disagree that 40%~ is unreliable though.

Basically I think footslogging boyz risk being too slow to do anything.


Well, many armies come your way to get objectives, so you don't have to do that 24" slog across the board anymore. However, boyz lack the ability to actually take down those units you meet in mid-field because they either are faster, get the charge on you and shred them, or they are extremely durable and despite taking some casualties from the improved choppas, they will endure and kill too many boyz in return.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Save a CP to reroll on Da Jump and you are up to an 83%~ chance to cast. I don't disagree that 40%~ is unreliable though.

Basically I think footslogging boyz risk being too slow to do anything.


Well, many armies come your way to get objectives, so you don't have to do that 24" slog across the board anymore. However, boyz lack the ability to actually take down those units you meet in mid-field because they either are faster, get the charge on you and shred them, or they are extremely durable and despite taking some casualties from the improved choppas, they will endure and kill too many boyz in return.


Yeah my kommandos bounced on skitarii infantry so badly last time, even with the +1 to wound... So boyz ? Hah, they would have done NOTHING. Boyz really didn't need to go up to 9. I agree with Semper, even at 7 I am unsure about how many I would currently bring (but they will never revert back to 7 ppm anyway, 8 ppm is the best we can hope GW does for us ork players).

Infantry for other armies has improved so much in such a short amount of time, ours kind of just sucks in comparison, even with T5 now... Sisters, ad mech, druka, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, the list goes on and on and on (mind you I am not only talking about basic infantry)...

GW will eventually find a way to make beast boyz comp, of that I am sure. Regular boyz ? Hmm, time will tell

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/06 12:42:00


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 Daedalus81 wrote:


Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.


30 blobs are the definition of vulnerable to morale. kill 6 models and the unit fails morale on a 2+ and then suffers 5 more casualties on average, thats 5 dead boyz or 45pts to 1 morale check. conversely, that means if you spend 2CP on the strat, you saved 45pts....greentide pre-codex would theoretically bring back up to 232pts, and usually brought back 20-25 for 160-200pts...of course that was for 3CP. A unit of 10 Boyz have to lose 4 models to have a 50% chance to fail, assuming they do they only lose (on average) 1 to morale and then 5/6th chance to lose 1 more. The big difference? Even assuming you fail all 3 Morale checks on all 3 10 man blobs you would then only lose 5.5 Boyz to Morale while the enemy had to kill 12 on their own. That is a significantly better exchange rate then the big blobs, and if they go for the 6 dead to get a 5/6th chance to fail morale, they end up killing 18 models themselves and the units suffer 6 dead to Morale on average even with the failing attrition on a 1 or a 2. So to summarize, MSU orkz are significantly less vulnerable to morale than a single big blob, and you benefit from more nobz and most importantly....there is no benefit to running big blobs anymore except for maybe Warpath...but even then, I would rather take fists and put it on the warboss.


Boyz in Trukkz are also useless. Trukk Boyz are good though But those are 1 unit per detachment, The only reason Trukk Boyz are competitive is because of their alpha strike potential. The Trukk Moves 12, the Boyz hop out 3', move 5, advance D6 and then can Charge 2D6 on a WAAAAGH turn 1. that works out to a 23-38' threat range, with the AVERAGE being 30-31.

A Unit of Boyz in trukkz as opposed to trukkboyz has ZERO alpha strike potential except as a fringe deploy on the line in the open unit. 3' disembark, 5' move, D6 advance, 2D6 charge, possible threat range of 26' which is enough to cross no mans land, but it averages 18.5 which is 5.5 less than required to get stuck in. And that unit costs 160pts without any upgrades. For the same price I could take 14 stormboyz and have a guaranteed 18' move/advance at the cost of possibly 1 Stormboy, and then have a threat range of 30 and an average of 25.5 add in the reroll charge and it gets a bit better but, but the point being that you have an alpha strike capable unit as opposed to boyz in a trukk which don't really.

Tyel wrote:
Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent. The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.

Arguably however Trukk Boyz are now a more reliable (and, especially if you think the weirdboy isn't doing anything else, dramatically cheaper) method of doing the same thing.

Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.

I think the bigger problem is just that killing lots of Boyz remains not especially difficult even with the bump up to T5. A 5++/6+++ will undoubtedly help - but still. You also can't really hide 30 boyz. (Not really convinced you can hide 20 grots unless terrain is especially conducive to it, or your opponents list is very static.)


Da Jump as you and Jidmah mentioned is not a reliable delivery system anymore. The chance of casting went down, the chance of charging went down and Evil Sunz lost their +1 to charge so as mentioned its at best a 40%ish chance to succeed. In a competitive game, you don't do this as a planned tactic unless you are out of all other options due to the massive chance for failure.

As for morale, I don't think it is overstated at all, in fact I think its understated. The Turn 1 Scenario is the worst case scenario for morale, but what would really happen if you had 3 blobs of boyz and 1 da jumped and failed its charge would be this. Da Jumped boyz unit would get annihilated. Every single boy in the 1st unit would be destroyed because the threat of a 2nd turn charge is far too great. Sadly for the Ork player, you just lost 270pts for no gain except as a "distraction carnifex". And then with whatever fire power the opponent had left he would target the boyz units and dish out enough dmg to likely trigger morale checks, preferably 6 casualties. After that they would reach out and touch things with heavy weapons. Honestly, if the Da Jump didn't go off perfectly its almost a guaranteed turn 1 loss. Assuming average rolls, you end up losing 30 boyz in the da jumped mob and any other blobs you have lose 11 each. So in the example above you lost 52 Boyz turn 1 for zero gain.

The problems with boyz are many and varied.
1: Price, they have gone up 50% in points since 6th edition.
2: Durability, for that 50% increase in price, they only gained T5, they still have 6+ armor and 1 wound.
3: Morale, with the change to morale, there is no realistic way to field Mobz of boyz.
4: Durability Buffs, The KFF giving a 6++ is a fething joke, if it was a FREE upgrade for a Mega Mek than maybe, but even then it would be a questionable upgrade as opposed to taking a warboss.
5: Dmg Buffs, Boyz lost a lot of inherent buffs. +1 to attack for 20+ models is gone, Warpath got harder to cast, Ghaz is no longer really worth taking which loses another +1 attack, they also lost a meaningful buff from their HQs. I don't want to wade through the codex but I think there is about 7+ different ways to give boyz +1 to hit in CC...but they already hit on a 3+
6: Stratagems, we lost Green Tide, We lost fight twice, we lost mob up, we lost basically every great stratagem for our army in general, but boyz specifically got hit hard.

As I said somewhere else, you could literally lower the price of Boyz to 7ppm and Beast Snaggaz to 9 and it wouldn't break the game. But you would see a few skew lists trying it out and the resulting catastrophic morale losses would be hilarious.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Let me put it a different way.

You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.

Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.

I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.

I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 17:59:27


   
 
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