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Longtime Dakkanaut




Boyz are now 9ppm (1pt increase). They gained T5 and -1AP Choppas. Shoota boyz got worse in my opinion.

Now, what they lost. No longer gain +1 attack with 20+ models, Ere we go got nerfed to re-roll both dice, Mob Rule got heavily nerfed, so killing 4 boyz is a 50% chance to cause the unit to fail morale and lose 1+1/6th of your boyz. KFF got nerfed to a 6+ save, Endless Green Tide is gone so you can't respawn a mauled squad. Fight twice is gone.


Personally I think with all these nerfs, boyz are dead as a unit competitively, but I would like to hear what the community thinks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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There is little to compare to Trukk Boyz.

People were complaining about rokkits being heavy, but Trukk Boyz get +1 to hit on top of doubling their previous shots. I haven't seen the limitations on specialist mobs, but if you can take more than one such unit they'll be quite popular. Bad Moons even more so.

Goffs score an extra hit on 6s now with AP1, and +1A and +1 to hit from the boss, so, a larger unit melee unit is quite dangerous.

It is also likely they have the TBB keyword.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
There is little to compare to Trukk Boyz.

People were complaining about rokkits being heavy, but Trukk Boyz get +1 to hit on top of doubling their previous shots. I haven't seen the limitations on specialist mobs, but if you can take more than one such unit they'll be quite popular. Bad Moons even more so.

Goffs score an extra hit on 6s now with AP1, and +1A and +1 to hit from the boss, so, a larger unit melee unit is quite dangerous.

It is also likely they have the TBB keyword.


Right, but if you kill 6 of those boyz they basically fail their morale test and lose 1/6th of their remaining models. And at 9ppm its no longer "meh" that is actually a significant loss.
Those goffs are also now less reliable on the charge thanks to the nerf to Ere we go.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.
   
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 alextroy wrote:
Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.


besides 8th edition made morale mitigators a bit too strong, it was a safe bet GW was gonna revisit them

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Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.
   
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As long as Gretchin continue to receive chain nerfs, Boyz will have to have a place.

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I think they will be taken in competitive lists since orks only have 3 troops, one of which (gretchins) is pure garbage. For someone the fact that a unit is part of a competitive lists makes that unit a competitive one. I disagree with that concept and I think that boyz will just be a little bit more than a tax unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.


It's actually a big improvement for vehicles since they don't care about the penalty. Now they fire 2x or 3x. There's an actual downside for rokkits which affects tankbustas: now they cannot deep strike and fire with no penalty. They went from 1 shot at BS5+, exploding 6s and full re-rolls against vehicles from deep strike to D3 shots with blasts, BS6+ and +1 to hit against vehicles. Sound a pretty harsh nerf to me. Not to mention that they can't even be enhanced with exploding 5s (More Dakka) or double tap (Showing Off) as all the shooty stratagems they can get are pretty bland now. I honestly don't see camper boyz with rokkits a viable thing. Maybe camper kommandos with a rokkit can work since they have a much better save in cover and can also fire a bomb squig.

But don't compare boyz with wyches as the latter are real killing machines, boyz are not.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/20 07:06:50



 
   
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They will definitely stick around as troops tax/obsec units, even if it's just two mobs of trukk boy in two patrol detachments/spearheads. Disembarking after moving and flipping objectives because you got more ladz than the enemy is very juicy.

Large mobs are dead for sure, but it is possible that tide just jump to brigades/multi detachment setups and flood the board with 120+ boyz in units of 15-20. Losing 2-3 boyz to moral isn't that problematic.
The only problem I see for boyz is that beast snaggas boyz might just be better at the MSU game because of their extra rules, free klaws and better stratagems.

Shoota boyz? Dead on arrival IMO. For 100 points you get some objective campers with a rokkit, but they aren't durable enough to fulfill that role - even with just two or three casualties the risk of failing moral is already there.

So, not really voting one or the other

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 08:08:46


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 alextroy wrote:
Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.


Boyz were dominant in Ork lists, not because they were good, but because most other things were bad. As far as reliable, pre-codex, Reliably you would get 10-15 boyz out of a mob of 30 into CC. 15 ork boyz with choppas in CC would get you 60 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds and 6.6 dmg to a Marine.

Those same 30 boyz now cost you 270pts (30pts more) they now have massive morale problems, they lost their ability to re-roll one or both dice on the charge and now have to reroll both. They lost +1 to attack with 30+ models. So now if they likewise get into CC they are 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 7.5dmg. But getting those into CC will be significantly less reliable and thanks to morale those boyz are still about as bad durability wise as before.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.


On average an Ork boy with a rokkit is significantly worse because they also lost the rule DDD. If you moved (which orkz will inevitably due, especially with 24' range) a roll of 1-2 results in 1 shot hitting on 6s. Straight away worse than the old rule. On a 3-4 you get 2 shots, which is slightly worse than the old rule and finally only on a roll of 5-6 is the result better. here is the math for infantry.

Old Rokkit:
1 Shot, 0.39 hits.
New Rokkit:
1 Shot, 0.16 hits
2 Shots, 0.33 hits.
3 Shots, 0.5 hits.

So 1/3rd of the time its 41% as effective, 1/3rd of the time its 16%ish less effective and 1/3rd of the time its 22% better. So overall, for infantry its a nerf.

On Tankbustas, no kulture Vs Vehicles.

Old Rokkit rule:
12 shots = 4 hits, 8 rerolls 2 DDD, The 8 rerolls become 2.66 extra hits another 1.33 DDD The 4 total DDD = 1.33 more hits and W/rerolls another 0.89 more hits. Grand Total: 8.88 hits.
New Rokkit Rule.
12D3 shots = 12, 24 and 36. The +1 to hit cancels out the -1 for moving which again they will have done. So you get
12 = 4 hits
24 = 8 hits
36 = 12 hits.

So again, 1/3rd of the time its significantly worse, 1/3rd of the time its marginally worse, and 1/3rd of the time its better but not by as much as the worst result is worse lol.

So yes, its a nerf. The only time its not is when those tankbustas don't have to move. And we can theorycraft the hell out of that, but the fact is that I can't remember the last time I had tankbustas standing still, hell, I can't remember the last time I had tankbustas surviving past turn 2.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Additional food for thought -

Old Boyz under a KFF vs Bolt Rifles
10 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.2

Boyz now - no KFF
10 * .666 * .333 = 2.2



10 Old Boyz in melee vs marines with A bonus
40 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 4.4

10 Boyz now
30 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 5

10 Boyz with Waagh and Boss
40 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 8.33



   
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 Jidmah wrote:
They will definitely stick around as troops tax/obsec units, even if it's just two mobs of trukk boy in two patrol detachments/spearheads. Disembarking after moving and flipping objectives because you got more ladz than the enemy is very juicy.

Large mobs are dead for sure, but it is possible that tide just jump to brigades/multi detachment setups and flood the board with 120+ boyz in units of 15-20. Losing 2-3 boyz to moral isn't that problematic.
The only problem I see for boyz is that beast snaggas boyz might just be better at the MSU game because of their extra rules, free klaws and better stratagems.

Shoota boyz? Dead on arrival IMO. For 100 points you get some objective campers with a rokkit, but they aren't durable enough to fulfill that role - even with just two or three casualties the risk of failing moral is already there.

So, not really voting one or the other


I mean snaggas can be competitive...but when ork boys themselves are picked because grots suck and shoota boyz are never picked that's not what i'd call an unit standing on its own merits...
Indeed its the same with CSM cultists, they are not picked because they are good or workable, but rather because they are cheaper than CSM...

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Immediate thoughts?

T5 is a significant improvement. Orks can shrug off S4 attacks pretty well as they are.

AP -1 on Choppas helps them against Marines and other typically well armoured goons. Is it a straight balancer to Marines having 2 wounds now? Nah. Not one for one. But it’s still an improvement they previously lacked, which increases the damage they do, and indeed the whiffability of your opponent’s dice.

What’s whiffability? The propensity of the dice to declare “screw you, we’re going to ignore statistics because we can”. Rough (crap) example?

You bag 10 wounds on the Marines in combat (nice round number for demonstration purposes). He rolls them bones, and gets 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,5,6. As Choppas are right now? He saved 7 of those wounds. With the -1? Oh dear..he failed 7. That -1 changing average success to pretty big disaster.

What I’m interested in seeing (and I’ll need someone who can actually math hammer properly) is comparing equal point units of Boyz.

Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.

Put like that, it really doesn’t sound a lot. And in isolation of what else might comprise a given army, it seems a frankly laughable difference.

But appearances are of course deceptive.

I suspect we might needs copies of the two books in hand to really pick through it, but as a direct, in a vacuum, comparison? Strikes me that for a relatively small point increase, the new Boyz stat line is just a better deal due to hitting harder and taking a bit more oomph to kill.

And seriously, if someone actually capable of math hammer could weigh in, with explanations, I’d be very grateful

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.


They can't have a 5++ bubble anymore though and they're also much more vulnerable to morale. So in practise they were probably more resilient before, when they were T4.

2x30 boyz with pks on nobz are 500 points, 560 if we add a Big mek with a KFF. Now the same number of boyz cost exactly 560 points but with no invuln and more vulnerable to morale. Do you really think they're more resilient now that they gained T5?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 08:04:44



 
   
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Depends on what one can do with the rest of the points available to your army.

This is why I’m asking for math hammering.

Keep it exactly equal points. So to use your example, compare what the 560 in the current (previous?) Codex and what it buys you, to how many Boyz you end up with in the new Codex.

From there, start working out what sort of punishment it takes across both examples to take them all out, and try to extrapolate that into how many turns or enemy models dedicating firepower it would take to achieve each.

It’s also why I suggested factoring in how hard they hit. There’s little point in being hard to take down if you hit like a half empty pillow swung by an asthmatic five year old.

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Of course, but notice that if they are actually easier to delete they won't hit (much) harder. We're talking about footsloggin melee oriented squishy dudes after all.

Pure numbers on paper mean nothing, really.

Like the 120 attacks they have on paper. In real life those attacks are actually 40, due to restrictions on the fight phase, even if the 30 man blob manages to suffer no casutalties before making the charge.

Considering all the leaks boyz seem very very weak now, that's taking into account the entire codex. That's why I consider them basically a tax for fielding a legal detachment. Grots are pure garbage and not everyone will have the snaggas in day 1.


 
   
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It really all depends.

Let’s say, purely for arguments sake, that when you get into combat you’ve got those 40 attacks available.

With the AP-1, the Boyz are objectively better off - and likely enough so to more than offset their points increase.

Now, how many Boyz does one need to start with to reasonably ensure you get self same 40 attacks? I genuinely do not know.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends on what one can do with the rest of the points available to your army.

This is why I’m asking for math hammering.

Keep it exactly equal points. So to use your example, compare what the 560 in the current (previous?) Codex and what it buys you, to how many Boyz you end up with in the new Codex.

From there, start working out what sort of punishment it takes across both examples to take them all out, and try to extrapolate that into how many turns or enemy models dedicating firepower it would take to achieve each.

It’s also why I suggested factoring in how hard they hit. There’s little point in being hard to take down if you hit like a half empty pillow swung by an asthmatic five year old.


I don't think we are ready for mathhammer yet - the codex has massively been shaken up, and it's safe to assume that every army working right now will be in shambles afterwards.

So essentially you would be comparing the 8th edition army to an army that will never be.

In any case, if you do that, you need to factor in morale. The old mob rule and da boss is watchin' pretty much made orks rarely lose more than 2-3 models from morale, while the new boyz can start failing tests with as little as 2 casualties.

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80 T5 Orks require 33% more S4 hits to kill, 19% more S5 hits, 11% more S8/9 hits, 11% less S3, 6,7 and 10 hits than 90 T4 Orks.

80 neo-Goff Boys do 42% more damage on the charge to MEQ, 17% less against GEQ than 90 Goff Boys currently do.

I think green tide will be great in casual games, Drukhari and AdMech have good counters which will probably mean it's not going to go more than 4/1 at GTs.

If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 09:52:02


 
   
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I think folk would be happier if like current/old Codex Boyz, having enough of them meant no failed leadership.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think folk would be happier if like current/old Codex Boyz, having enough of them meant no failed leadership.


Not sure, I'm more happy with GW taking away incentives to bring mobs of 30. The green tide is not a lot of fun to play or play against.

It's probably also healthy for the game if most units don't ignore morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.


Uhm, you just need to kill 4 to have a 50% chance to fail a moral test which will then kill an additional model and 1/6th of the unit. If your opponent brings units of 20, a failed morale test will kill about 3 additional orks.

So smart targeting can essentially negate the T5 buff fully.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 10:05:14


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 vict0988 wrote:
80 T5 Orks require 33% more S4 hits to kill, 19% more S5 hits, 11% more S8/9 hits, 11% less S3, 6,7 and 10 hits than 90 T4 Orks.

80 neo-Goff Boys do 42% more damage on the charge to MEQ, 17% less against GEQ than 90 Goff Boys currently do.

I think green tide will be great in casual games, Drukhari and AdMech have good counters which will probably mean it's not going to go more than 4/1 at GTs.

If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.


going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain

on the original topic I think all things considered the thing I believe will hurt ork boyz the worst is the morale. When playing against orks for large units I really will be only taking out 7 ork boyz before deprioritizing them since the morale mechanic should take care of more than a few extra shots. I will only come back to shoot at them is no other targets are a threat or say they are likely get a charge next turn on something squishy and I can't just walk away from them with their low movement.

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 Blackie wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.


They can't have a 5++ bubble anymore though and they're also much more vulnerable to morale. So in practise they were probably more resilient before, when they were T4.

2x30 boyz with pks on nobz are 500 points, 560 if we add a Big mek with a KFF. Now the same number of boyz cost exactly 560 points but with no invuln and more vulnerable to morale. Do you really think they're more resilient now that they gained T5?


I mean, they can have a 5++ bubble, it does cost you 2cp per turn but depending on what you want to protect that may be worth it. I'm still finding I'm including KFFs in some of my lists.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:

going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain


Going from 4+ to 5+ is 16.7% difference but 33% decrease in power. The math is still off because to make up for 33% decrease you need 50% more attacks. That is how math works.

EDIT: I didn't take amount of models into account.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 13:56:20


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I can see the 33% claim from a result standpoint, but definatly not taking 50% more shooting

50% more attacks needs more explanation then "how math works"

In the old T4 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T4 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots, 13.2 hits, 20 x .66 Those 13 hits then wounding on 4's (13.2x.5) so 6.6 wounds. ap-1 so no save. 6.6 dead orks

In the new T5 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T5 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots hitting, 13.2 hits (same as above). those hits now wound on 5's , (13.2 x .33) means 4.4 dead orks.

so when you take into account the full attack sequence the space marines do 33% less casualties on the orks in this situation


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I think they'll be competitive purely for the trukk boyz (once they fix the wording) and nothing else since Snaggas outcompete them on foot and Grots are functionally useless.
   
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jullevi wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain


Going from 4+ to 5+ is 16.7% difference but 33% decrease in power. The math is still off because to make up for 33% decrease you need 50% more attacks. That is how math works.


Its 33% because you are comparing 80 T5 bodies to 90 T4 bodies.

I.E. you need 240 S4 hits to kill the former, and 180 to kill the latter. 240/180=1.33.

Not really sure on the doom and gloom. Green Tide was boring before - but I think the reasons it "works" (i.e. your opponent has bought a hard anti-power armour, i.e. 2+/4++ save models) will continue. Lists that want to maintain the style will probably gravitate towards 90 Kommandos/Storm Boyz - but you could still see 45-60 boyz on the table backing them up if you want to go all in.

As some have said - the perk now is you don't need to worry about taking 30 in a blob, in the hope that 20 are still alive when you make contact for that extra attack. You might want to keep one such mob for Da Jump, but its not mandatory. You can bring mobs of 15-20 and most will get to swing their choppas if they make a successful charge rather than sitting in the back cheering.
   
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As Jidmah pointed out, Ork boyz are LESS durable than they were before. Good work GW.

Orkz face off against a 10 man intercessor squad because the Marine player was being weird that day.

10 Marines = 20 shots, 14ish hits,

Old Orkz: 14 hits turns into 7 dead Orkz. Mob down to 23, doesn't give a damn, keeps on muckin about.

New Orkz: 14 hits turns into 5 dead Orkz, Mob down to 25, Mob likely fails morale, loses 1 boy, down to 24, Now rolls attrition, fails 4 more rolls on average, congrats you are now down to 20 models you have lost 3 more boyz that cost more under the new rules than you did before.

Ork units w/ Morale in general are going to be in a really bad place this edition. Christ Mek Gunz have a 50% chance to fail morale now after losing 1 model.

Orkz are going to go through a paradigm shift. Going from massive blobs of boyz and "speshulists" to Elite MSU builds, because if they aren't in the smallest units allowed they will get gutted by Morale.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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 G00fySmiley wrote:
They were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same.

Wounding on 4+ means you wound 3/6 times, 4s, 5s and 6s on a 6-sided dice. Wounding on 5+ means you wound 2/6 times. If it takes 12 bolter hits to kill 5 T4 Ork Boys, you will need 18 to kill 5 T5 Ork Boys. 12*3/6=18*2/6.

6.6 dead Orks... 4.4 dead Orks.

6,6/4,4=1,5. You need 15 Intercessors instead of 10 Intercessors to kill as many Orks as you would have previously.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 13:59:27


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Right so, 23 boyz and 20 boyz.


23 * 4 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10

20 * 3 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10

You lost 3 extra boyz and still do the same damage. And, again, if you have a warboss -

20 * 4 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 16.7

I wonder why GW got rid of mob rule....hmmm...

   
 
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