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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




WoaH... 40K really needs a proper morale system... such an iconic unit as the Boys has been sent into oblivion mainly because morale hampers them in an extreme manner...and 9th edition is sort of an improvement over 8th... Wikes!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/06 18:06:46


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let me put it a different way.

You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.


Wat? A battalion can hold six troops and you want a patrol for the extra specialist mob anyways. You already have three HQs so you lose nothing by splitting, plus you could just drop the gretchin and just do one detachment for 0 cp.

Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.

Yes, once per game, before you know whether you might pass anyways. And even if you auto-pass the first 6, the next time you will attrition will eat half of the boyz you just saved.
The issue is not losing the unit, the issue is doubling the efficiency of your opponent's guns against a unit that is not very durable to begin when trying to run a "I've got more models than you have guns"-strategy.

Morale will haunt you all game, you can't just throw your "Get out of jail free!"-card away turn 1. You need it for when a nob needs to stick around to either smash something with a claw or switch off objective secured to flip an objective with the help of units that don't have obsec. Giving up the ability also means that your opponent can optimize morale losses without you interfering.

I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.

Actually one more on average, as each mob is left with three models when rolling attrition. If you roll a '1' for morale, you lose nothing. Meanwhile, your mob losing 12 boyz also would lose one model guaranteed and an extra 3.833 boyz.

I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.

You cannot spend more CP. Insane heroism is once per game and breakin' eads requires you to be within 3" of a WARBOSS or NOB and still causes casualties.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let me put it a different way.

You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.

Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.

I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.

I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.


Exactly why am I spending 4CP to get 6 units of 10 boyz? If I am taking that many boyz I am taking them in a battalion or brigade, not multiple patrols. Key take away though is that I am not going ot take that many boyz regardless of unit size because they are terrible for their points when compared to other units. If I want Choppy I go for Meganobz/Kommandos. If I want durable objective holders I go for Kommandos in cover, if I want cheap objective holders I go for MSU Kommandos or a unit of grots etc etc. There are few if any situations where a boyz unit carries out its job better than other competitive choices.

Also, your scenario would be killing 6 in each of 2 separate 30 Boy Blobz which cause you to basically auto-fail morale. Which you then have to spend 4 CP on to save or lose on average 10 more boyz. Compared to killing 2 Boyz in 6 mobz where each one has a 83% chance to pass morale. Statistically 1 should fail anyway which would then lose 1 to morale and 1 to attrition. Hence MSU is significantly more durable to morale than Big blobs.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
Wat? A battalion can hold six troops and you want a patrol for the extra specialist mob anyways. You already have three HQs so you lose nothing by splitting, plus you could just drop the gretchin and just do one detachment for 0 cp.


Right, right. I was going off your patrol comment. If I did that I'd probably go mechanized.

Painboss goes with MANZ. That with the bikes makes a little W3 oasis with a bunch of Ramshackle foiling most D2 and T5 W1.

Spoiler:
Warboss, MA
BM, KFF
Painboss

2x10 Shoota
2x10 Choppas
2 Trukks
2x10 Grots

7 Burnas, 1 KMB, Zzapcrump
Trukk

4 MANZ, Rokkits, Trukk Boyz
Trukk, Squighide Tires

5 Kommandos
Scrapjet
Rukk, Nitro
6 Bikes

7 Lootas, KMB, Smokygubbinz
Trukk

2x1 Mek Gunz


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I kind of like it because its very different - but intuitively I feel it just doesn't have enough teeth to meaningfully threaten anything. So it will be the close of turn 3 and you just won't have much of an army left, meanwhile you've inflicted scarcely any damage.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Crimson wrote:
 Galas wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?

Spoiler:





I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.


Yeah from the kommandos the ork re-scale is more like the tweaks csm received than primaris to regular marines.

Slightly smaller head, slightly less bowed legs, slightly bigger torso to make it more in scale with the arms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let me put it a different way.

You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.

Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.

I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.

I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.


Exactly why am I spending 4CP to get 6 units of 10 boyz? If I am taking that many boyz I am taking them in a battalion or brigade, not multiple patrols. Key take away though is that I am not going ot take that many boyz regardless of unit size because they are terrible for their points when compared to other units. If I want Choppy I go for Meganobz/Kommandos. If I want durable objective holders I go for Kommandos in cover, if I want cheap objective holders I go for MSU Kommandos or a unit of grots etc etc. There are few if any situations where a boyz unit carries out its job better than other competitive choices.

Also, your scenario would be killing 6 in each of 2 separate 30 Boy Blobz which cause you to basically auto-fail morale. Which you then have to spend 4 CP on to save or lose on average 10 more boyz. Compared to killing 2 Boyz in 6 mobz where each one has a 83% chance to pass morale. Statistically 1 should fail anyway which would then lose 1 to morale and 1 to attrition. Hence MSU is significantly more durable to morale than Big blobs.


Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 11:48:54


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."


Which is what i predicted sadly. MSU boyz sounds good but they are too expensive for what little they do. And at that size they aren't very hard to shift off an objective. To kill 10 Boyz hanging out on an objective takes 36 Bolter hits. To shift 5 Tac marines which cost the exact same it takes 60 Bolter hits.

Honestly, Boyz at 9ppm without at least a 5+ Save is just ludicrously over priced. Add in their morale issues and its just flat out stupid.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."


I think the only thing allowing this is Dark Eldar. You have Raiders and Ramshackle. With DE being the 'army to beat' still people are working ways to kill those boats. Those methods are all S6/S7 D2 weapons. The exact weapons that Ramshackle loves.

If the bottom falls out on DE somehow you're going to see people move away from so much sub S8 mid-range and buggies will get their faces pushed in.

I don't know how that will happen, but people are going to need to stop taking so many TVCs. A Forgefiend with cannons and plasma head comes real close to what a TVC can do for just a little more points and does almost twice as much as a TVC does to a buggy.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think the only thing allowing this is Dark Eldar. You have Raiders and Ramshackle. With DE being the 'army to beat' still people are working ways to kill those boats. Those methods are all S6/S7 D2 weapons. The exact weapons that Ramshackle loves.

If the bottom falls out on DE somehow you're going to see people move away from so much sub S8 mid-range and buggies will get their faces pushed in.

I don't know how that will happen, but people are going to need to stop taking so many TVCs. A Forgefiend with cannons and plasma head comes real close to what a TVC can do for just a little more points and does almost twice as much as a TVC does to a buggy.


Agree in theory but not convinced in practice. I think Buggies will kill this "tech to Autocannonesque profiles" - which may further cement DE dominance, unless buggies have the advantage over DE (not sure if someone's analysed that specific matchup, and its probably a bit early for there to be much data.)

The issue though is that there are so many forms of army that beat "I'm bringing all the melta, the end". If 20% of the metaspace becomes buggies that might be a trade off worth making - but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.

I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/07 15:53:00


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.


I'm hoping 'Herd the Prey' gets hit as well.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.


I'm hoping 'Herd the Prey' gets hit as well.


And yet none of that addresses the question of whether or not Boyz will be competitive. I think at this point we can safely say that they are not garbage tier, but they are definitely not top tier/competitive.

The last 3 Ork lists that placed had a combined total of.....0 Units of Boyz and/or Beast Snagga Boyz. Now, in fairness, 2 of the lists were piloted by the same Ork general. But it is rather telling that these guys aren't even taking troop taxes. They would rather lose CP and take other detachments without a troops choice because of how useless boyz are.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.


I'm hoping 'Herd the Prey' gets hit as well.


And yet none of that addresses the question of whether or not Boyz will be competitive. I think at this point we can safely say that they are not garbage tier, but they are definitely not top tier/competitive.

The last 3 Ork lists that placed had a combined total of.....0 Units of Boyz and/or Beast Snagga Boyz. Now, in fairness, 2 of the lists were piloted by the same Ork general. But it is rather telling that these guys aren't even taking troop taxes. They would rather lose CP and take other detachments without a troops choice because of how useless boyz are.


It won't be a long lived reign. Buggies that go second against multiple stratoraptors have an uphill battle ( hence my preference for traktorkannons ) and will have an easier time against suppressors and TVCs. But the biggest benefit is they can take DE, which is the strongest gatekeeper to victory. TS GK may present problems for buggies soon, too.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Going second also makes it easier to get those first turn charges. Since most enemies will be moving into the midfield.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.


Fair point. People seem to be coming around on the KFF a bit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 12:53:18


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.


Fair point. People seem to be coming around on the KFF a bit?


drive-by gangsta mek does seem fairly effective.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
drive-by gangsta mek does seem fairly effective.




I'm here for this. Someone should convert Zodgrod.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
drive-by gangsta mek does seem fairly effective.




I'm here for this. Someone should convert Zodgrod.


Sadly Zodgrod has a two-part head, so he doesn't fit on the MA body

MA big mek with ded shiney shoota (aka drive-by gangsta mek) is a great HQ to have around on its own, so spending 30 points for the one turn of 5++ is a good trade-of for losing the rather short-ranged tellyporta blasta.

The traditional KFF mek though? Hot garbage.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


It won't be a long lived reign. Buggies that go second against multiple stratoraptors have an uphill battle ( hence my preference for traktorkannons ) and will have an easier time against suppressors and TVCs. But the biggest benefit is they can take DE, which is the strongest gatekeeper to victory. TS GK may present problems for buggies soon, too.


Right, and when Buggy spam dies, Kommando and elite infantry orkz take over. Why take 5' movement boyz when I can take 12' movement Stormboyz who have an auto 6' advance move at the cost of a 50% chance to lose 1 model. Boy is 9pts and a stormboy with more than 2x the movement is 11ppm. And before you say "but meh trukkz!" except the aforementioned trukk boyz, to take a functionally useless except for transport ability ups the cost of a unit of 10 boyz from 90pts to 160. For 154pts I can take 14 Stormboyz, yes definitely not as durable as a trukk, but significantly better in terms of dmg output, especially since the Stormboyz can reliably move 18' turn 1 and have a 6' charge if your opponent is incautious enough to deploy on the line. Why take 9ppm boyz when I can take 10ppm Kommandos who get 3+ armor in cover and gain +1 to wound in cover. And those Kommandos can deploy 9' from the enemies deployment zone and move 6', leaving them with a 3' charge turn 1 if the enemy deploys on the line. failing that they can advance and charge since who cares about losing pistol shots and charge which gives them an AVERAGE charge range of 7.5' into the enemies deployment zone. Why take 9ppm shoota boyz who at best, in 9' Dakka range will average 1 hit per model at S4 when I can instead take 11ppm Burna Boyz who average 3.5 hits per boy at 12' range.

There just isn't a good reason to take boyz. Just about anything they can do can be done better for the same price or cheaper by a plethora of other units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Kommandoz and Stormboyz are great, but are subject to the rule of 3, will probably cost CP to bring to avoid boyz, and if they're big enough to be threatening - morale, too. Kommandoz forward deployed are in a pretty precarious position unless the opponent can't ignore cover. And the Blood Axe redeploy is currently before first turn is known ( unless I've read that wrong ).

The basic Kommando 10 man is 120. Boyz in a trukk are 160 like you said and has room for a Warboss. +1 to wound is great - if that model is near cover ( obviously grot once ). Those Kommandos won't likely be near a Warboss and the math of +1 to hit vs +1 to wound is really quite similar in output. So then you have infiltration vs 12" move and 3+ in cover versus T7 4+ W10 Ramshackle. Boyz in a Trukk will do a much better job holding objectives. And if you have buggies or other vehicles that Trukk becomes de-prioritized.

To me it seems clear that GW wanted the book to come together in a specific way, which when talking about Boyz either involves Trukks or layered saves ( KFF, Painboy, Breakin' Heads ) and the answer is not none, but all units participating in cohesive roles for a battle plan. People that just tax a couple units of Boyz into the backfield will probably be better off going your route.



   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




How do your Kommandos get to 120 points? Klaw, bomb squig, distraction grot, question mark? Seems a bit skewed to have all these things versus 10 naked Boyz.

I don't think GW had a plan for Boyz. I think they looked at the stat lineup and went "probably worth about 9 points". I don't think that's too unreasonable in the context of say Marine troops (Semper spits water all over the screen), basic Plague Marines and Sisters. It however seems overcosted in the context of DE and Skitarii. But there's a reason those troop units are usually kept MSU or just not taken.

The issue with Boyz is the same as its always been. Every faction can build an army to wipe 60ish T5 6+ save models a turn. In practice however it may not be able to do that and also destroy whatever is dominating the meta at the moment. This would be especially true if people moved to taking more multi-meltas etc because Buggies became a respectable portion of the meta. But right now they are not. I think a "Boyz-led" force running into "typical Ad Mech" is not going to go well. DE by contrast are more maneuverable than you, so should dictate engagements and kill you, at least once DE players factor in the Waaagh turn advance and charge.

This is why I doubt they'd make them 7 points - it doesn't make them any more interesting, but it doubles down on the skew. Because then I feel people would just run MSU boyz squads (lots of them), plus kommandos/storm boyz etc - and every army would have to be able to kill 50-60 Boyz a turn or almost inevitably lose due to having dozens of Obsec models flooding all over their objectives.

Its not impossible to imagine "new CWE" being really anti-buggies (blanket minus 1 to hit or something, cheap and plentiful lances). But then if "New Tau" get the damage output bonus of 9th, massed fire warriors could just murder Boyz.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






"Cost CP" isn't really an argument when generic stratagems are among the ones most used by orks. You need a small contingent of 5-6 CP to do certain things, but beyond that CP are rather useless for orks.
Rule of 3 doesn't matter much either, you can have 90 elite infantry models plus another 30 trukk boyz before you field a single regular boy or snagga boy.

I also don't want to pick apart everything, but that's not how you use warbosses, and even if you did, you ignored the costs for using one to babysit a mob of boyz. A warboss also can't disembark to follow after trukk boyz.

In general the whole scenario is very situational. Take the warboss and trukkboyz out of the equation and you end up with exactly what Semper was saying - a unit that is good at nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 09:17:31


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
"Cost CP" isn't really an argument when generic stratagems are among the ones most used by orks. You need a small contingent of 5-6 CP to do certain things, but beyond that CP are rather useless for orks.
Rule of 3 doesn't matter much either, you can have 90 elite infantry models plus another 30 trukk boyz before you field a single regular boy or snagga boy.

I also don't want to pick apart everything, but that's not how you use warbosses, and even if you did, you ignored the costs for using one to babysit a mob of boyz. A warboss also can't disembark to follow after trukk boyz.

In general the whole scenario is very situational. Take the warboss and trukkboyz out of the equation and you end up with exactly what Semper was saying - a unit that is good at nothing.


In my head it wouldn't be trukkboyz. It'd be a sort of mechanized infantry list.

There are good strats in the clans and there's more if you build a list to use them. The book is oddly short of them so I imagine in GW fashion we'll see more in a Charadon book.

Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?

Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.

   
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...I mean, yes, they got 3+ armor saves in cover, -1AP on their choppas, a way to manually trigger Throat Slittas, magical space marine infiltrate instead of regular deep strike turning them into a turn 1 tempo unit, and a bunch of other obnus bits and bobs and boyz lost a gak ton of their special rules...so Kommandos are amazing now.

It isnt rokkit science...

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in bh
Longtime Dakkanaut





They still suffer from being very easy to kill in melee, which for an infiltrate unit is a bad bad thing. But considering the whole package, they come out great.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:

Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?

Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.


Kommandos got an improved save in cover, a better wound bonus (Kommandos within 1" of terrain, rather than target being in cover), a way to get that wound bonus in the open, and a selection of improved special weapons--most notably the upgraded burna and bomb squig. And they got the same Toughness and choppa buffs that boyz got. On the flip side boyz have gotten heavily nerfed, losing almost all the abilities they previously used to be effective. There's a very significant difference between the two now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 14:25:58


 
   
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theyre limited by Rule of 3 but thats really literally it. If Kommandos were a troops choice you'd only always ever take them and never ever take boyz. The reason to take boyz is:

1 - you want to save yourself some CP (so you take a unit of trukk boyz)

2 - you already took your 3x10 kommandos, and youre doing a speedwaagh list so stormboyz arent a T1 tempo unit, and you want more choppas, so rule of 3 makes you take more boyz than your one-unit minimum

3 - youre going for a goofy skew list that actually uses foot mobs for board control so you might as well take large numbers of 10-boyz squads after your 30 kommandos



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hankovitch wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?

Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.


Kommandos got an improved save in cover, a better wound bonus (Kommandos within 1" of terrain, rather than target being in cover), a way to get that wound bonus in the open, and a selection of improved special weapons--most notably the upgraded burna and bomb squig. On the flip side boyz have gotten heavily nerfed, losing almost all the abilities they previously used to be effective. There's a very significant difference between the two now.


AND space marine infiltrate instead of deep strike, AND a discounted power klaw on the nob that eats up 1/2 of the points bump they got right off the bat, AND a 5pt mortal wound ability in the bomb squig, AND T5 in addition to 3+ in cover, AND boyz didnt just lose out on the various abilities that put them up over kommandos in effectiveness on their datasheet, but all the units that buffed boyz got significant nerfs - KFF big meks went to 6++, ghazzy doesnt give the +1A anymore, weirdboyz' da jump + evil sunz turn 1 tempo use case is significantly significantly weaker.

you can maybe make the argument that 'theyre still good despite all that' but you've basically got to argue the 'despite all that' part. Boyz are SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed compared to where they were before the codex. Very, very significantly nerfed. I'm of the opinion that they would be an obvious balance problem with AP-1 choppas and T5 plus all their old stuff, sure, but the trade-off was a huge, huge hit in power overall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 14:30:11


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Okay fiiiiiiine. I concede the point! No mas!


   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Kommandoz and Stormboyz are great, but are subject to the rule of 3, will probably cost CP to bring to avoid boyz, and if they're big enough to be threatening - morale, too. Kommandoz forward deployed are in a pretty precarious position unless the opponent can't ignore cover. And the Blood Axe redeploy is currently before first turn is known ( unless I've read that wrong ).

The basic Kommando 10 man is 120. Boyz in a trukk are 160 like you said and has room for a Warboss. +1 to wound is great - if that model is near cover ( obviously grot once ). Those Kommandos won't likely be near a Warboss and the math of +1 to hit vs +1 to wound is really quite similar in output. So then you have infiltration vs 12" move and 3+ in cover versus T7 4+ W10 Ramshackle. Boyz in a Trukk will do a much better job holding objectives. And if you have buggies or other vehicles that Trukk becomes de-prioritized.

To me it seems clear that GW wanted the book to come together in a specific way, which when talking about Boyz either involves Trukks or layered saves ( KFF, Painboy, Breakin' Heads ) and the answer is not none, but all units participating in cohesive roles for a battle plan. People that just tax a couple units of Boyz into the backfield will probably be better off going your route.


3 x 10 Kommandos, equipped how I like them (Bomb squig, PK, Distraction Grot),
3 x 10 Stormboyz W/PK
3 x 10 Trukk Boyz W/Trukkz

Just that is 1,200 Points. Add in the required 3 HQs and you are roughly at 1500pts. That is 3/4ths of a 2k point army that has ZERO regular boyz or Beast Snagga Boyz. And my tournament list finished with Mek gunz and Deffkoptas.

So yeah, rule of 3 I guess stops me from spamming 6 units of Kommandos like I did in 8th before rule of 3, but it doesn't really limit my ability to take elite alpha strike infantry. At no point do I need to fill in more boyz, in fact it would actually take away from my strategy of a super in your face, turn 1 alpha strike list.

And as for morale, the biggest unit is 10. If you force me into a morale check with 6 casualties, I at most lose 1 to morale and 1 to Attrition, that is it. Significantly better than 5 on a mob of 30.
Here is the math against T4. 12 attacks at +1 to hit is 10 hits, 5 wounds. +1 to wound is 12 attacks, 8 hits, 6.6 wounds. Against T5 its 3.33 wounds vs 5. +1 to wound is better. And the reason why Boyz in a trukk (Not trukk boyz) are bad is because its a 160pt unit that does nothing a cheaper unit can't do better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


In my head it wouldn't be trukkboyz. It'd be a sort of mechanized infantry list.

There are good strats in the clans and there's more if you build a list to use them. The book is oddly short of them so I imagine in GW fashion we'll see more in a Charadon book.

Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?

Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.


There are...basically zero good strats for a unit of boyz that wouldn't be better used on other units. Kommandos are NOT largely the same. They are a turn 1 alpha strike unit that can wound T7 on 4s with 30 attacks minimum. They got a bomb squig, they got a 3+ in cover...they are amazing, I honestly don't expect them to last long without a nerf for how good they are compared to the kraptastic stuff GW is pushing like beastsnagga boyz.

A boy is 9ppm, a Kommando is 11. The Kommando is a turn 1 Alpha strike unit that deploys in cover 9' from the enemy lines and if for some reason you don't go first it is a T5 unit with a 3+ save. Just for comparison so you understand, to shift 10 Kommandos (No nob) out of a piece of cover requires 20 Heavy Bolters. 20 Heavy bolters is 60 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds and 10 dmg. 10 Boyz compared to that require 10 Heavy Bolters, also the boy will be Incredibly lucky to get a charge off turn 2 (average 8.5 movement with advance per turn).

Tyel wrote:
How do your Kommandos get to 120 points? Klaw, bomb squig, distraction grot, question mark? Seems a bit skewed to have all these things versus 10 naked Boyz.
120pts of Kommandos is as you mentioned, Klaw, Bomb Squig and distraction grot. It is skewed since I am comparing an ELITE unit to a TROOPS choice unit. More so I am comparing a Unit of 10 Boyz in a trukk. They don't compare favorably at all.

Tyel wrote:
I don't think GW had a plan for Boyz. I think they looked at the stat lineup and went "probably worth about 9 points". I don't think that's too unreasonable in the context of say Marine troops (Semper spits water all over the screen), basic Plague Marines and Sisters. It however seems overcosted in the context of DE and Skitarii. But there's a reason those troop units are usually kept MSU or just not taken.
I think you are right. I think GW looked at T5 boyz with -1AP choppas and though "WOW! These guys are going to break the meta, better give them a points bump!" And thats where the problems started. Because then someone else said "WOW! 9ppm T5 boyz! I better nerf the KFF" and then "better nerf Ere we go" and then "Better Nerf Mob Rule" and then "Better nerf buffing characters" And before you know it, you went from "WOW! T5 Boyz!" to "Wow....T5 boyz suck". I do think that a T5 boy compares relatively close to a Plague Marine or a Sister of battle, but as you mentioned, nobody takes those units Which is what boyz are doing right now as well...not being taken.

Tyel wrote:
The issue with Boyz is the same as its always been. Every faction can build an army to wipe 60ish T5 6+ save models a turn. In practice however it may not be able to do that and also destroy whatever is dominating the meta at the moment. This would be especially true if people moved to taking more multi-meltas etc because Buggies became a respectable portion of the meta. But right now they are not. I think a "Boyz-led" force running into "typical Ad Mech" is not going to go well. DE by contrast are more maneuverable than you, so should dictate engagements and kill you, at least once DE players factor in the Waaagh turn advance and charge./quote]

But you don't need to wipe out 60ish boyz a turn anymore. In fact...there isn't a point to doing so anymore. Ork players were bringing 3-4 Big Blobz of boyz to tournaments (some even brought 5). If you didn't focus fire down a mob of 30 the Ork player would use 3CP to auto-regenerate up to 232pts worth of boyz and have them appear within 9' of the enemy...something I did more than once. If you let them get into your lines, you would get swamped with a horde of attacks and the +1 to attack AND the fight again strat. It was a bad day for someone if they got in.

But now? Lets say you took 5 Big Blobs of boyz. Instead of outright killing 60 boyz in 2 mobz you can instead kill 6 boyz in each of the 5 Mobz, you end up killing 55 Boyz thanks to Morale issues. And as I mentioned above, those boyz now pose little to no threat until at best turn 2 and even than they have to make some good rolls to get a turn 2 charge in. Assuming average rolls, turn 1 you move 8.5, turn 2 if you call WAAAAGH you move another 8.5 and you are now at 17' movement over 2 turns and if the enemy deployed on the line and never moved...that is still a 7' charge. 1 below average advance roll and you are looking at 8 or even a 9' charge turn 2 which is pathetically bad for a unit which is goign to cost you 270pts without even upgrading the nob.

Tyel wrote:
This is why I doubt they'd make them 7 points - it doesn't make them any more interesting, but it doubles down on the skew. Because then I feel people would just run MSU boyz squads (lots of them), plus kommandos/storm boyz etc - and every army would have to be able to kill 50-60 Boyz a turn or almost inevitably lose due to having dozens of Obsec models flooding all over their objectives.

Its not impossible to imagine "new CWE" being really anti-buggies (blanket minus 1 to hit or something, cheap and plentiful lances). But then if "New Tau" get the damage output bonus of 9th, massed fire warriors could just murder Boyz.


Skew would absolutely be a problem, especially when you bring in more stuff like Kommandos, I openly agree. But that is literally the only way to be competitive with how bad their morale is. You either overload the board with a horde of cheap T5 bodies or you lose turn 2. At 7ppm you could get 180 boyz for 1,260. That is honestly too much and would slow the game down a lot. But even at that size, killing 36 boyz would result in ...ready for this? 66 dead boyz turn 1. That is literally more than 1/3rd of your horde dead Turn 1 simply by killing 6 boyz in each mob. That is how cripplingly bad Morale is.

The other option to fix boyz would be to give them back their old Mob rule or give them a rule that says boyz can never lose more then 1 Boy to attrition or something equally daft. At the moment a Marine player with 3 man MSU squads can't even fail morale, and in 5 man units its only if you kill 60% of the unit, and then it only fails on a roll of a 6. Which means at 4 its only a 1/3rd chance to lose the last guy to morale, not exactly the same scale when on average a Mob of 30 will lose 5


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah on Kommandos, for some reason I thought the Distraction Grot was also 5 points like the bomb squig and klaw so the combo came in at 115, can now see its 10 so 120.

I think its fair to say 4-5*30 Boyz is dead. There's a possibility a supplement may change that (morale protection, return of the Greentide Strat etc) but as it stands its too fragile and too slow.

Moreover Boyz are also not obviously worth it at 9 points versus Kommandos at 10, Storm Boyz at 11 or Burnas at 11. Arguably this is a good thing - since its usually been the ohter way round. However it means its not clear why you'd ever want small units of Boyz until you were maxed out on these - and since maxing them out means taking 9 squads, its unclear why that would ever happen in a 2k point list. It could be that there was some weird morale sweet spot that exists with 20 Boyz - but I'm not seeing it.

I'm therefore going to keep saying that Da Jump with 30 Boyz is the only logical reason to A) bring 30, B) bring any outside Trukk boyz.
Because 20% of the time, it works every time. (Terrain and screening may apply, psychic powers are not be for everyone, consult your warboss etc etc)
   
 
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