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Catastrophic read this thread, even when it was just about on topic. Nearly no one actually discussed why they think boyz are still (slightly) relevant.
So I will try and give a few cents (at least I tried, unlike some here who just want to talk about stuff unrelated), you take max 6*10 boyz IMHO these days (whici costs more than 1/4 of an army, which is a LOT).
There are obsec and are toughness 5. As goffs, with a +1 to hit source (and against vehicules with tankbusta strat) they can do some harm.
But they are very match up dependant, some armies will just go through 6*10 boyz so fast that the Obsec use (scoring primaries, keeping banners up, so on and so forth) will be too thin for 1/4 of your points. They also unlock a bataillon, incidentally.
If you need none of the above desperately, refrain from taking more than 0,1 or 2 mobs. Mob isn't even a good term as they will be 10, none more none less, because of how powerfull blast is against over ten models, and because 90 points for tissue paper resistance level units is a lot.
I voted "no" but I could be totally wrong. "No" for now would have been more accurate.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 11:29:10
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
1. Morale makes bringing multiple 30 man blobs too costly. Greentide in that form is dead as a competitive build.
2. (Debated) - the loss of Evil Sunz +1 to charge undermines Da Jumping one squad of say 30 into an enemies lines (there's also a higher chance of failing to cast - but with a reroll the odds of failing are still small). The counter is that Evil Sunz boyz never hit hard enough anyway, and the new Goth rules and +1 AP on Choppas means Boyz can at least scratch most things in a Waaagh turn. But Goths isn't all that desirable on everything else, and a 40%ish chance to work still means a 60% chance to fail which is too high to be consistently placing. There is a general sense that a weirdboy isn't worth it - although it could be argued Da Jump has scoring utility too.
3. If you are going to run MSU boyz, why not just bring 10 man Kommandos/Storm Boyz/Burna boyz instead. You lose Obsec, but gain movement or damage. You can get Obsec back with a Deathskulls Detachment. You miss out on Goth assault perks - but benefiting from those entails getting an M5" unit across the table.
4. Trukk Boyz may be competitive because reliably throwing Obsec units into your opponents lines turn 1 tends to be. However what seems to be emerging as "the Ork List" is Speedwaaagh vehicle spam, in which case Trukk Boyz are not obviously necessary. You'd rather bring 2 more buggies, 1 and a half dakkajets, 6-7 bikes etc. Grots can fill in - or you can just not bother with troops at all (who cares about CP when there are no wombo combo stratagems?)
5. Its maybe possible lists will look different if triple Kill Rig is as powerful as Reddit thinks it will be. Dakka however remains to be convinced.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Boys would be okey, if they could be run in 5 man sized squads.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
5. Its maybe possible lists will look different if triple Kill Rig is as powerful as Reddit thinks it will be. Dakka however remains to be convinced.
I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.
But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 13:11:57
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
Definte "a lot". We have already seen competitive lists with 9-10 buggies.
My experience is that you can usually fit 6-7 buggie sized models across the board.
Then you add 5-9 squigbuggies who don't give a zog about what terrain looks like.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
addnid wrote: I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.
But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn
True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.
But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?
.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?
.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.
I think I agree with Spoletta that on the long run, ork infantry should be the build that sticks for top spots, and buggy lists the noob smasher. But I have been wrong before, a lot, so perhaps I will be again. 9th most def is an infantry based game. At least with WTC maps offering so much to infantry.
For now, my games show me buggy lists are better, but I have a feeling things will change. My buggy lists can really be wrecked by well played ob sec strategies. I just don't have any opponent doing so ATMlol (despite having a very comp group).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 14:48:24
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Spoletta wrote: .... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.
Not all tournaments were allowing the new Ork codex since it isn't universally available which hits their numbers a bit.
Orks are definitely a 55%+ capable faction.
Do I fear the all buggy list? No, but I don't lean on twin volkite contemptors, which buggies laugh at. There are so many lists that lean on Sub S8 D2 ( WSVV, anyone? ) that just won't cut it. Diversify your bonds.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 15:00:32
addnid wrote: I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.
But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn
True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.
But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.
Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just run the killrig as part of a vehicle list?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?
.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.
I think I agree with Spoletta that on the long run, ork infantry should be the build that sticks for top spots, and buggy lists the noob smasher. But I have been wrong before, a lot, so perhaps I will be again. 9th most def is an infantry based game. At least with WTC maps offering so much to infantry.
For now, my games show me buggy lists are better, but I have a feeling things will change. My buggy lists can really be wrecked by well played ob sec strategies. I just don't have any opponent doing so ATMlol (despite having a very comp group).
I think you're gonna see squigspam lists leaning on the hog boyz and kill rigs and squigboss, buggy/flyer speedwaagh lists, and infantry lists showing up, but I think the infantry lists are going to be T1 tempo kommandos/stormboyz and a couple units of trukk boyz rather than green tides. kommandos and stormboys rock regular boyz socks, and with 3x10 of each plus your 2x patrols with trukk boyz you've already got like 1000pts on the board. Once you've got to your limit on those 3 'boyz but better' units I think you're basically like, set on how much S4 AP-1 T5 cheapo melee guys you need and you'll probably include some antitank/antielite point removal units like squigbuggies or tankbustas or wazboms that are mostly subfaction-agnostic (i.e. the options who already get native +1s to hit so they dont suffer for not being freebootas because youre going to want your infantry to be goffs or evil sunz maybe).
addnid wrote: I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.
But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn
True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.
But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.
Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just run the killrig as part of a vehicle list?
Mostly melee so it doesnt work with freebootas and would much rather be snakebites?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 15:22:15
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
As I see it the Kill Rig will want to be in a regular Waaagh, aiming for a first turn charge.
I mean I might be wrong, I've not played with one or against one - but it just seems logical based on the stats. You advance up, cast something, so now your wurrtower auto D3 lascannon hits and then you charge. With say Evil Sunz you'd be looking at 14+3D6 which should usually get you into something (given rerolls etc) barring a very negative deployment. Not even sure the Evil Sunz boost is necessary, and Goths is more choppy, but I think Rezmekka's is kind of nice to throw on a Squigosaur, so having one detachment like that isn't too bad.
I guess nothing really stops you just walking up and benefiting from Speedwaaagh, but they are not a good shooting unit.
Weirdly due to design decisions I don't think Snakebites helps at all. Because your T8 already and don't have the Squig Keyword (for... reasons?)
I'm sort of agnostic. On paper I think its a fairly ludicrous combo for 190 points. Equally however, I think you are just asking to be nuked with anti-tank fire from behind big LOS-blocking blocks of terrain. If you take 3 I think there's a meta issue that people just don't bring enough anti-tank. But if buggies become more common people may well start meaning more people do so.
the_scotsman wrote: Mostly melee so it doesnt work with freebootas and would much rather be snakebites?
It's not a squig, so that wouldn't do much either. It's power comes from the combination of melee, a lot of mortal wounds from psychic powers and the auto-hitting main gun, each one taken separately is nothing to write home about - the melee is comparable to that of a bonebreaker, the shooting to that of a buggy.
And it's still worthwhile to bring with a freebootas. During shooting its lobba benefits from a trigger +1 hit, and in combat it can be the one to trigger the +1 for all the other buggies.
The biggest issue is that it has huge bullseye painted on it, you are most likely unable to hide it and if there is nothing to eat all the high damage weapons in the enemy army, you will just be providing targets for otherwise unused guns. In a list like the one Tyel suggest, aiming every dark lance, melta or rokkit at the killrigs is a no-brainer.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Kill rig issue is that the charge phase is after the psy phase.
If it really wants to deliver the big MW nova, it needs to survive one turn in close proximity of the enemy. Even if you don't kill it, just bad touching is enough. Remember that in 9th you can't fall back and psy.
8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: 8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.
With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.
In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 20:12:51
Jidmah wrote: 8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.
With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.
In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.
GK are doing pretty well and will shut their psychic down hard as well TS. It also opens up a painful secondary for TS against Orks, so I welcome Kill Rigs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 21:00:59
I'm not sure why, but I've tried and read the TS codex to work out what a "good" TS list should look like and feel its just... double dutch. And GK put me to sleep.
So I feel GK and TS probably do have powerful lists... but I just can't ever seem to get a handle on them in my head. So I'll have to wait untill I run into them on the table. Or they start placing in tournaments and it becomes obvious.
Tyel wrote: I'm not sure why, but I've tried and read the TS codex to work out what a "good" TS list should look like and feel its just... double dutch. And GK put me to sleep.
So I feel GK and TS probably do have powerful lists... but I just can't ever seem to get a handle on them in my head. So I'll have to wait untill I run into them on the table. Or they start placing in tournaments and it becomes obvious.
This one also did WWWLW beating Admech thrice and Vahl Sisters and lost to DE. He took a small detachment in a crappier cult and it looks like just for the move debuff spell:
Spoiler:
+++ Feel the power of the Darkside!!!! (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [105 PL, 6CP, 17 Cabal Points, 1,999pts] +++
Thousand Sons lists are hard to read, because it's less about units and more about spells and relics ( but still about units though they don't have a deep bench ). Grey Knights seem to be the opposite oddly enough.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 22:47:10
Jidmah wrote: 8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.
With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.
In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.
Kill rigs have diminishing returns. Playing 3 of them doesn't really look like a good idea.
Frazzle is what makes or breaks them, and you can cast only one.
Well, you could pick frazzle on all three and have two of them smite...
But I'm not convinced that it's broken enough to carry an otherwise mediocre army list that it has little synergy with and spam three of them. It seems more like an powerful asset to mix in with a list that already synergizes well with vehicles an high toughness values.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/04 11:19:41
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: 8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.
With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.
In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.
Kill rigs have diminishing returns. Playing 3 of them doesn't really look like a good idea.
Frazzle is what makes or breaks them, and you can cast only one.
The multiple Frazzles are for when you start losing killrigs. One killrig gets shot to bits early, the second one gets through and does some damage, the third is overkill and is probably wasted points.
I agree with Jidmah though, the killrigs are best ran in a list that is already flush with high toughness, multi wound targets to ensure they don't get focussed down before they can do damage.
Back to boys though; I'll say a tentative yes.
Taken en masse to emulate green tide but in mobs of ten to mitigate morale, however at this point they conflict with kommandos and stormboys.
Or taken as trukk boys to compliment an already fast alpha strike list, however at this point they still compete with kommandos and stormboys, and also warbikers now.
I've found some success with the latter.
Boys have the potential to be competitive, however they step on the toes of units that do what boys want to do but better. If taking them as your mandatory troops choice in a patrol compliments the style of the list, then there's no harm in taking them. Likewise, if they compliment the list and you've not got the slots to take more kommandos/stormboys then take boys.
Spoletta wrote: Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.
See I disagree on this one. Buggies are good, a lot of our units are good/ok but boyz in my opinion don't fall in that list. Even MSU spam they aren't reliable enough to do much. As someone else mentioned, you could bring 6x10 Boyz units for 60 boyz or 540pts, over 1/4th your entire list before upgrades, give all the nobz PKs and its closer to 1/3rd. They don't hold up well under enemy firepower, even with their T5, but the kicker is the morale issues they have which means even if you survive you will likely be doing dmg to yourself from morale, and neither strat is worth wasting CP on to save 2-3 boyz.
In CC they are better than before thanks exclusively to their -1AP choppas, but they lost the +1 attack, they lost their good CP strats and they lost weirdboy buff for the most part because it doesn't make sense to waste warpath on a 10 man boyz unit when you can just give Fists to your warboss.
Thanks to all of that I honestly don't see them being worth taking as anything beyond Trukk boyz or backfield objective holders. In every game I've played so far they have under performed and aren't anything like their former selves where they can just swamp a target in attacks or have so many bodies that you can't shift them off an objective.
Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword....
I can't help but feel like the advance edition of the codex was like. A rough draft. Just so much weird gak in there.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword....
I can't help but feel like the advance edition of the codex was like. A rough draft. Just so much weird gak in there.
Did you know you can use your one per detachment specialist mob to increase the AP of all blast weapons on the blitza bommer by 1?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
