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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

20-30 S8 AP-2 (or -3 if boomboyz) D3 hitting on 4s is certainly good for 170 points. And a chance of dealing a few mortal wounds for an additional 5 points eventually. Problem is it's hard to even let them fire once at full potential. 4 shots and re-rolls is OP territory and too much dice rolling. Tankbustas simply needed to fire without the penalty of their heavy weapons to be competitive.

They were competitive when they could arrive by deepstrike/outflank, even with 1 shot per model + DDD + re-rolls against vehicles which is basically the equivalent of +1 to hit vs vehicles and D3 shots with blast, plus easier access to a cumulative AP bonus (boomboyz or a even just few hits if bad moons).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 12:43:55



 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Karol wrote:
I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
20-30 S8 AP-2 (or -3 if boomboyz) D3 hitting on 4s is certainly good for 170 points. And a chance of dealing a few mortal wounds for an additional 5 points eventually. Problem is it's hard to even let them fire once at full potential. 4 shots and re-rolls is OP territory and too much dice rolling. Tankbustas simply needed to fire without the penalty of their heavy weapons to be competitive.

They were competitive when they could arrive by deepstrike/outflank, even with 1 shot per model + DDD + re-rolls against vehicles which is basically the equivalent of +1 to hit vs vehicles and D3 shots with blast, plus easier access to a cumulative AP bonus (boomboyz or a even just few hits if bad moons).


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.

Ask a marine player how hard it is to have a shooty unit with 30" range stand around as a stationary gun turret all game shooting at full capacity.. Or you play them as the other shooty subfaction, Freebootas, and you trigger Competitive Streak to get them +2 to hit so they dont care about moving and shooting at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 14:45:29


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.




Yep, and taking it fully literally, the literally dudes/dudettes with pointy ears (i.e. "The Elfs") are usually pretty pants. There's basically 1 or 2 Aspect Warriors who are really good/OP who get spammed, and nobody runs the others. And I'm not sure of a time when Guardians actually have had anything to make them as desirable as comparable line troops like Guardsmen or Fire Warriors (not that those are desirable now obviously).
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I'd like to point out that "The Elfs" are not on topic. Don't fall for the troll bait every time, guys.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 the_scotsman wrote:


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.



10 bustas in a trukk cost 240 points, including the transport. Two scrapjets are 180 points but they're way more resilient overall, have comparable firepower, can move and fire without penalties and have some decent close combat ability. If we consider three scrapjets, 270 vs 240 points, there's really no competition.

Destroying a trukk and then 10 t-shirt save guys is trivial and that's what happens if the ork player goes second, trukk can't be hidden (unless it's Freebootas) otherwise it needs to move next turn and the crew fires with a penalty, while hiding the buggies is possible. If ork player goes first and rolls poor or even average on the D3 shots, those 240 points of stuff would still be disappointing, since they won't have a second chance.

To make trukk bustaboyz work you need first turn and to roll high on the D3 shots. Other rokkit platforms are far more reliable, that's what makes them a gamble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 17:54:21



 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So the average of a tankbusta hitting with rokkits...
Tankbusta average while moving is 2/6
Tankbusta average while stationary 4/6
Overall average for tankbustas is 3/6

Deffkopta average hitting with rokkits is 8/6

tankbustas are 17pt each, so three tankbustas per deffkopta, by points, and you get..

(3) tankbustas average while moving - 6/6
(3) tankbustas average while stationary - 12/6
(3) tank bustas overall average - 9/6

When using power levels, you get 10 tankbustas or 3 deffkoptas for power level 8, which gives you...

(10) tankbustas average while moving - 20/6
(10) tankbustas average while stationary - 40/6
(10) tankbustas overall average - 30/6

(3) Deffkoptas average - 24/6
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

9 tankbustas have basically the same cost as 3 deffkoptas which is the min squad: 9D3 shots with +1 to hit against vehicles vs 6D3 shots with no penalties if the models move.

9 stationary tankbustas targeting a vehicle get 9 hits on average, 3 koptas firing at the same target get 4 hits instead. Against a non-vehicle tankbustas get 6 hits on average. 9D3 also means up to 27 shots, while koptas can only fire 18 at most.

Tankbustas have clearly more potential but it's harder to max it out. And koptas also have native deep strike, better movement, better melee ability and they're more resilient.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 20:41:20



 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:

unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.

   
Made in us
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




So my primary opponent over the last year has been my dad, I play a bunch of different armies and he plays four and early on we made the agreement that we would play 8th codexs against 8th codexs and 9th codexs against 9th codexs. The design philosophy is a radical change when it is between the two editions. So far, Orks have done poorly against even 8th codexs like Guard.

To me it feels a lot like the 8th edition Tyranid codex where they got worse versions of other factions rules with stipulations on how they can be used. For example look at Ramshackle, a simple -1 Damage on attacks. Something that my Death Guard get standard but for Orks it only effects weapons S7 and lower....How many multi-damage weapons do you know of that are S7 or lower? The only weapon that I have found in my dad's armies is the autocannon, which is not exactly a meta weapon right now.

I know that there are some gems in the Ork codex but as someone who played Green Tide Snakebites, not exactly a powerful list, or a Deathskullz Dread Mob I am not exactly thrilled. I do look forward to playing some Squighogs and Killrigs alongside my Squiggoths but they do not seem like they are going to be terribly competitive and I basically have to buy a brand new army.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.


Not really, the main reason why they were comparable to other clans at all last edition was because of +1 to charges from deep strike and a good psychic power. I tried the whole advancing and charging part for my buggy lists quite a bit and it's not a huge boost at all.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Karol wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.


Can you please just stop with your Elf hate fetish holy gak. Do you even play AoS or are you just assuming everything with pointy ears is OP broken.
Craftworld have sucked to play from an enjoyment perspective theres nothing fun in spamming the one or two overtuned unit in the codex while the rest rots on the shelves.
Drukhari were fine in 8th, harlequins were actually bad in 8th until they got their PA
Ynnari are a meme at this point.

On-topic : I think DDD being gone is great for the flow of he game, playing against orks is already super painful because of how many "non-interactive actions" they are resolving during their turns (mainly moving stuff around). Adding rerolls on top of that just turned the game into a snoozefest, especially when playing less experienced players that are often faced with decision paralysis (not blaming DDD for that part).

I think most of the outcry thats been going on about the orks is because it changes how theyve been played for a long time for a way that is less lore-accurate. I can sympathise with that, im not an ork player myself but having my CSM outclasses by cultists feels terrible. My only hope is that the ork codex at least brings you guys some fun ways to play them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 14:28:28


Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/03 15:20:01


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Waaagh da Sun Elfs.

I guess we'll see on the Orks. I think there are some dud entries - but I'm still convinced by the specialist green squig tide, and all the buggies*.

*Footprint and terrain seems likely to be a bigger problem than anything with the units themselves.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.


You don't need ghaz. You can achieve a close enough result with just one waaagh.

   
Made in au
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meh, orks lost all their interesting rules for a generic stat buff. Whatever.
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.


It's not right to take shootaboyz and call their shooting "ork shooting". Why not take a skrapjet or a blastajet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause the things you say are more of a shootaboy'z problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 13:27:44


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Karol wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.


Idoneth deepkin are bottom tier. You're full of gak, as always, and completely off topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.



10 bustas in a trukk cost 240 points, including the transport. Two scrapjets are 180 points but they're way more resilient overall, have comparable firepower, can move and fire without penalties and have some decent close combat ability. If we consider three scrapjets, 270 vs 240 points, there's really no competition.

Destroying a trukk and then 10 t-shirt save guys is trivial and that's what happens if the ork player goes second, trukk can't be hidden (unless it's Freebootas) otherwise it needs to move next turn and the crew fires with a penalty, while hiding the buggies is possible. If ork player goes first and rolls poor or even average on the D3 shots, those 240 points of stuff would still be disappointing, since they won't have a second chance.

To make trukk bustaboyz work you need first turn and to roll high on the D3 shots. Other rokkit platforms are far more reliable, that's what makes them a gamble.


....wouldn't 3 skrapjets have 9d3 5+ to hit rokkit shots +3 4+ to hit rokkit shots vs 10d3 4+ to hit rokkit shots from the tankbustas? so 7.5 rokkit hits against vehicles vs 10 for 30 more points? in terms of durability you're most likely right, and I do think overall 3x skrapjets are better, I'm just trying to figure out if there's something I'm missing in terms of antitank firepower.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 13:56:56


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.


You don't need ghaz. You can achieve a close enough result with just one waaagh.


No, you really can't. Speedwaaagh ironically is a strictly shooting buff, regular Waaaagh allows the army to advance and charge, so you literally can't achieve a similar result with just 1 waaagh.

If you get just the speedwaaagh....the only real benefit over how they are currently worded is you might sneak in a few extra dakkashots with advance. So keeping shooting after advancing wouldn't have been broken or OP. You could take a Speedboss and give him the "fasta den yooz" warlord trait which allows ONE unit to advance and charge but at that point you are kneecapping your warlord for this minor buff. So again, the only benefit would be moving 16' advancing 7 and than getting dakkarange on 9' Keeping in mind they already can go 16 and Dakka 9. So you gain an extra 7' of movement to get a different unit into Dakkarange at best.

If you take the regular waaaagh and you advance and shoot before charging...its 10 S5 shots at BS5 no AP. averages out to the aforementioned 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and 0.74dmg to a Marine. So again, not broken. Unless you really think 75pts of Warbikers killing an 18pt Marine before charging is "broken" in which case may I refer you to the plethora of other units that do more than that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:


It's not right to take shootaboyz and call their shooting "ork shooting". Why not take a skrapjet or a blastajet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause the things you say are more of a shootaboy'z problem.


Because its not just an ork shootaboyz problem, they are just the most glaring problem with the current "buffs". I mean hell, they could have just given orkz regular Rapid Fire rules and it would have been better for the most part. Dakka Weapons in general aren't great. The Scrapjet you mentioned comes out ok but not because of the new Dakka rules, but because GW changed its primary weapon and gave it an extra D3 shots (went from 2D3 to 3D3)

A heavy Bolter went from D1 to D2, big shoota's which were always the Ork equivalent went from Assualt 3 to Dakka 5(3).

Keeping in mind the fact that a Big shoota was never worth 2pts let alone 5 it gained an extra 66% dmg output at half range. A Heavy Bolter gained 100% dmg output at all ranges.

A single Heavy Bolter against a T4 3+ save 2 wound target is 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg on average.
A single Big Shoota at Half range is 5 shots, 1.66 hits, 1.11 wounds and 0.37dmg. to equal the same dmg output as a single Heavy bolter you need 3.6 of them, all within half range. If you don't get within half range its 3 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds and 0.22dmg which means you need 6 to equal the dmg of 1 heavy bolter.

Against softer targets like a guardsmen the heavy bolter is less effective, 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds and 1.38 dmg for 1.38 dead Guardsmen.
The Big shoota at half range is 5 shots, 1.66 hits, 1.11 wounds and 0.74dmg So 2 Big shootas at half range is about equal to 1 Heavy Bolter at all ranges. At any range longer than 18 its 3 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 wounds and 0.44dmg so you need 3.13 Big shootas to inflict the same dmg.

So again, its not just shootaboyz suffering from this "buff" its most ork weaponry that was changed to the new Dakka weapon type. I was hoping GW would realize how pathetic most ork shooting is and buff it to at least be threatening, boy were we wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 14:51:43


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Big shootas are great with speedwaaagh, I have no idea what you're complaining about.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
Big shootas are great with speedwaaagh, I have no idea what you're complaining about.


Sure, and I didn't add that in just like I didn't add in super doctrines for marines which gives the heavy bolter +1 AP. Same effect.

big shootas are not "Great" with the speedwaaagh, they are ok with the speedwaaagh. To get the same dmg potential as a Heavy bolter at 36' range, even during a Speedwaaagh you have to shoot 4 big shootas. 12 shots, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.3 dmg Vs the Heavy bolter's 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg

A heavy bolter is a 10pt upgrade for Marines, a Big shoota is a 5pt upgrade for Orkz. So just in terms of cost for weapon upgrades the Big shootas are 2x more expensive.

The gist of the entire argument is that GW did not buff Ork weaponry enough to compete in the current meta's especially when compared to how buffed Imperial weaponry got.

Heck, look at anti-tank weapons. When thew new melta rules came out Marine/imperial players were saying "just wait for your codex" in regards to the disparity in dmg. Well, we now have the codex. A Multi-melta gained an extra shot and +2dmg at half range. It averages 5.5dmg per unsaved wound. What did Orkz get? Our rokkitz became heavy and D3 So we lost mobility but gained an average 1 extra shot per rokkit, they remained flat 3D. Compare that to Eradicators in general, Against a T8 3+ model a unit of 3 eradicators with heavy rifles and MM is 155pts I can take 9 Tankbustas for the same price.

Eradicators = 4 shots with Heavy Rifles and 4 shots with MM. each is 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds. At max range its right about 12dmg
Tankbustas = 18 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds and 9dmg.

None of that includes penalties to hit from moving, nor does it include stratagems, chapter tactics kultures etc. And between the 2 units, which do you think is harder to shift? Both are T5, both have 9 wounds but the Eradicators are 3+ while the tankbustas are 6+. Those Tankbustas are supposed to be glass cannons, they dish out a lot of dmg and than die. But for some reason the Gravis Marines with way better durability are putting out a lot more dmg while also being tankier.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Scrapjets in Speedwaaagh get a 70% return versus Intercessors, rising to 95% if you can get Freebooterz off.

Not sure it would work outside of Planet Bowling Ball due to base sizes, but I would be interested to see what a list like this would do:

Freebooterz - Patrol+Outrider
Wartrike
Big Mek with Mega Armour+KFF
11 Grots (5 points spare - could take a grot oiler instead just because you can)
9 Scrapjets
6 Squigbuggies
3 Dakkajets

If your opponent can't LOS everything from the Scrapjets it seems like their stuff is just going to die in droves.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 xttz wrote:
That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.


5 Assault intercessors vs 10 Boyz.

Intercessors get 21 attacks turn 1, 14 hits and kill about 5 boyz on average. (4.6)
10 Boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg for 2.5 dead Marines.

Morale Phase. Marines auto-pass because LD 8 - 2 = 6.
Orkz are LD7 - 5 = 2. 66% chance to fail, lose 2 more models to attrition and failed morale check.

6.6 Dead Boyz = 59.4
2.5 Dead Marines = 47.5

thats a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction (BTW orkz aren't melee focused, go read our codex) with 5pt DAKKA weapons don't shoot or Melee as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






A skrapjet deals around 6 wounds to a t7 3+ vehicle on a speedwaaagh but without freeboota +1 to hit. It's fast, cheap, durable and has access to 5++ and -1 to hit.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 xttz wrote:
That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.

Orks are not a melee focused army.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


Orkz are the Soviet style horde faction. Where a Space Marine can use a super elite bolt gun and hit its target regularly, Orkz instead take 5 crappy shootas and accomplish the same task.

You are literally on a website called DAKKA DAKKA which is an ORK term meaning shooting/guns. Ork units are supposed to be 1 for 1 inferior to other factions units but ork units are supposed to be extremely cheap to make up for this. Where you can take 1 tank I can take 3 etc. The problem is GW keeps forgetting this and worse, when they do remember, they only remember the "Orkz units are inferior" part and not the "extremely cheap" part. Look at the Loota as an example of how codex creep has ruined the concept of this. A loota in like 4th - 6th was an ok unit, it had literally 3-4x as much fire power as imperial counterparts but it also hit 3-4x less, it was fluffy, fun, and competitive but not overbearing. Since than, other factions weapons have matched ork firepower potential and even surpassed it while also being significantly more reliable in terms of shooting. Case and point, look at how a loota even with our "buffed" dakka weapons compares to a Chaos havoc armed with an auto-cannon. The Marine actually point for point hits about the exact same but he is also SIGNIFICANTLY more durable with 3+ armor, and prior to our new codex he was also T5 compared to our T4. Its not a leap of logic to see that GW has forgotten how to write rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
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