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2021/08/10 00:04:59
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2021/08/10 00:15:34
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.
The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.
Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.
That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.
And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.
If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.
So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.
What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.
Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.
Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.
Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.
All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.
An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.
The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.
Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.
That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.
And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.
If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.
So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.
What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.
Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.
Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.
Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.
All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.
Yeah, unfortunately the 40k arms race is rarely kind to any faction that aren't space marines or imperials of some sort. Xenos do seem to be shafted a lot when it comes to mainline infantry weapons.
2021/08/10 00:59:34
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Insectum7 wrote: Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.
Odd, from what I have gleaned, Immortals are in a rather good spot, warriors aren't in such a bad place either, but big blobs require more investment to work and MSU of Immortals have been favored since they are more flexible. Eldars though are in a tough spot.
2021/08/10 01:49:07
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Insectum7 wrote: Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.
Odd, from what I have gleaned, Immortals are in a rather good spot, warriors aren't in such a bad place either, but big blobs require more investment to work and MSU of Immortals have been favored since they are more flexible. Eldars though are in a tough spot.
They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:
It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.
koooaei wrote: For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...
Lol, that's one weird of a coincidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:
It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.
That's not unreasonable from a fluff to game performance. Space Marines were depicted as generally better than Necron Warriors in pretty much all field and about has tough as Immortals, better then them in close combat, but less powerful at range on a one on one basis. Right now, these general observations are reflected in the game. Orks always were inferior to Space Marines and while orks are represented as about as dangerous as Space Marines in close combat, they are much less heavily armored, less disciplined and significantly dumber. This is also rather well represented in a one to one basis. Ork boyz punch a little bit harder than Space Marines, but are less tough than the much more heavily armored Space Marines. Orks have benefited well from "power creep". They gained better choppa, an extra point of strength and toughness from 7th edition. Eldars, especially Eldar Aspect Warriors, suffered from stat creep.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 06:59:33
2021/08/10 06:56:54
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.
For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...
The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
2021/08/10 10:11:47
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.
For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...
The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.
Aaaaaaaand now an immortal is 1W while a marine is 2W, because of course they are
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/08/10 11:59:17
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.
For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...
The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.
Aaaaaaaand now an immortal is 1W while a marine is 2W, because of course they are
I mean, the immortals have a lot of ways to stand back up again after and T5 3+ is pretty nice when you have a decent chance at least 2-3 immortals in a squad stand back up again to be rekilled (re-reanimated?)
2021/08/10 12:02:57
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Tyel wrote: I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."
Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.
I think Choppa boyz might have been reasonable at 9ppm if GW hadn't gutted them with horrific morale problems. I think 8 would have been better personally, and if they are really fixed on keeping morale as a MAJOR issue for orkz, 6. And I am being serious. Turn one if you kill 6 boyz, which isn't hard to do you lose 1 more to morale and than 4 more to attrition. I lose almost as many to morale as I do to you shooting them. At that point, if they cost more than 6ppm they won't be competitive. Is 6ppm way to low for a T5 model with S4 and 2 attacks? Absolutely, but with that crushing morale issue its really not. Most ork players I think would agree on this, I would rather go back to T4 and old Morale rules and being 8ppm (keeping the -1 Choppa) than stay at 9ppm and have T5 with the morale issue.
As far as shoota boyz, GW is again showing how useless they are in regards to orkz. it used to be a shoota boy was +1ppm more htan a choppa boy...i literally never understood that, now though? If you brought them down to 7ppm they would still be over priced. The shoota hasn't gained any real buffs in firepower since 4th edition. DDD in 8th was probably its biggest buff and No the new 3(2) dakka profile is WORSE than 8th edition versions of it. Gaining 50% more shots sounds great until you realize you have to be within 9' of your target. That doesn't work for a unit that is over priced, not at all durable and at most wants to be camping on an objective.
An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.
The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.
Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.
You forgot that orkz were also Initiative 2 or 3 which meant that they swung LAST after all other melee troops/units. Those 1 attack Marines with similar WS stood up a lot better when you realize that they all got to attack before the orkz swung.
I believe that at 9 points, Choppa Boyz are still okay. A squad of 10 in a trukk comes off cheap enough and hits hard enough to hurts its favored target (T4 or less infantry with a 3+ or worst armor). At 8 they would actually be very good, but not broken. At that price having big mobs would probably be something we could see again. AT 7 points, shoota boyz would become more correctly price, but I would not see players using them much with a 8 point choppa boyz. I personaly would simply raise their range back to 24 inches like in 3rd edition and keep the dakka profile and make them 8 points. This way, especially in bad moon, you could see them use as some sort of sponge in objective holder.
At no point would you ever put 10 choppa boyz in a trukk right now. That is 160pts for what amounts to a turn 2 threat at best (assuming not trukk boyz) 10 boyz in CC work out to 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg vs a Marine. If we are talking about Trukk boyz, I would never use boyz for that, and instead would use meganobz or just regular nobz. A trukk is just flat out over priced at 70ppm for what little it does. A Dark Eldar raider is 25ppm more and its 4' faster, +1 WS +2 BS, +1 LD and the same save. More importantly it comes stock standard with a Dark Lance, a CCW AND a 5++ it carries 1 fewer model than a trukk as well. Give the Trukk a 10pt price cut, bring it to WS3 and either a wreckin ball or a grabbing klaw for free and maybe its on a close to even footing, but likely not.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: With the amount of LOS blocking terrain on tables now, I really believe mathammer is partially irrelevant other than looking at efficiency for mostly one turn, 2 turns max.
Ignore LOS is going to be a problem for Ork boyz, but I do not see it as a problem at all the idea of getting boyz units into combat, I think people may have to adjust to slightly smaller mobs so they can utilise LOS cover as much as possible.
Once it's figured out how to get them into the enemy lines - they will be a problem.
not particularly. At 9ppm they are no longer low risk high reward. Killing even a handul almost guarantees morale issues and thanks to the smaller footprint, none of the buffs you can use on them seem worth it. Not to mention their biggest benefits from 8th have all disappeared. No more Guaranteed Da jump, no more 8' charge no more +1 to attack.
Insectum7 wrote: They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:
It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.
That's not unreasonable from a fluff to game performance. Space Marines were depicted as generally better than Necron Warriors in pretty much all field and about has tough as Immortals,
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.
An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.
The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.
Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.
You forgot that orkz were also Initiative 2 or 3 which meant that they swung LAST after all other melee troops/units. Those 1 attack Marines with similar WS stood up a lot better when you realize that they all got to attack before the orkz swung.
Immaterial to my point, really. Plus back in the day the Orks could double their Initiative on the charge. Plus, even swinging first, each Marine only had a 20% chance to kill an Ork, while each Ork had a 50% chance (thinking of third edition) to kill a Marine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 14:02:49
Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.
I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2021/08/10 14:15:57
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.
I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.
I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .
So what happened was, 30 boyz charge in, Most (20ish) would get into combat and swing. But before they got to swing the 9 Marines and Sgt would get to fight first. So 9 Marines and a Sgt with Chainsword was 11 attacks, 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds and 2-3 dead Orkz. The 20 boyz would swing with 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead Marines. In the 2nd round of combat the Marines swing again but with 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and 1.5 dead boyz. Here is the crazy part though. Those 20 remaining boyz would now get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. So they effectively tarpitted one another. 10 Marines was 150pts, 30 boyz was 180pts. In reality though, the Orkz would take a Nob and give him a PK for another 35pts I believe (can't remember prices) and that nob would get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits and 1.5 dead Marines himself, and more importantly that nob could 1 shot a lot of vehicles.
In reality, the boyz were just ablative wounds for the Nob who would do the real heavy hitting.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat. Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.
I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.
I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .
So what happened was, 30 boyz charge in, Most (20ish) would get into combat and swing. But before they got to swing the 9 Marines and Sgt would get to fight first. So 9 Marines and a Sgt with Chainsword was 11 attacks, 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds and 2-3 dead Orkz. The 20 boyz would swing with 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead Marines. In the 2nd round of combat the Marines swing again but with 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and 1.5 dead boyz. Here is the crazy part though. Those 20 remaining boyz would now get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. So they effectively tarpitted one another. 10 Marines was 150pts, 30 boyz was 180pts. In reality though, the Orkz would take a Nob and give him a PK for another 35pts I believe (can't remember prices) and that nob would get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits and 1.5 dead Marines himself, and more importantly that nob could 1 shot a lot of vehicles.
In reality, the boyz were just ablative wounds for the Nob who would do the real heavy hitting.
Yeah, going to I3 sounds about right. I disagree that boyz were just ablative wounds though. In your example boyz killed about 9 marines in 2 turns. If they had a nob that would finish off the marines. The nob is there to support the boyz and finish off survivors and give them anti-vehicle support.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 14:22:32
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2021/08/10 14:24:05
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: Iirc, nob had 4 s9 a2 attacks on the charge that hit on 3s. This was terrifying back in the day.
Oh it was certainly scary, especially against vehicles. Not going to solo entire squad by himself though, as if he's S9 he will most likely have a klaw which means striking last, and 4 attacks isn't going to kill 10 marines at once.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2021/08/10 14:30:52
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6 if charging through difterrain, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc. However, they had 5+ cover from kff mek all the time.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 14:33:00
2021/08/10 14:36:04
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly
Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz
And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE
Generally on the other side of the table, but my memory was Boyz being decidedly unthreatening aside from the PK armed nob and possibly a warboss or something in the unit.
Partly this was because of the same old problem. You can say 20 Orks equals 30 attacks etc - but there are plenty of times you wouldn't be able to swing with all 20 orks, so the actual damage became much less. Whereas the nob can rip up vehicles, threaten instant death on characters or multi-wound models etc.
2021/08/10 15:57:58
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly
Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz
And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE
In all fairness, vanilla tacticals were considered an underwhelming choice even back in a day - people used min scouts. They still are. While Boyz were good. Underwhelming now. So...BaLaNcE indeed!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 15:58:24
2021/08/10 17:18:03
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.
I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.
I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .
During 3rd and most of 4th they doubled Initiative when charging by passing a Mob Check. Boys at I4 and Nobs at I6 (although usually fought last because they were actually armed with a Power Klaw).
koooaei wrote: Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly
Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz
And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE
In all fairness, vanilla tacticals were considered an underwhelming choice even back in a day - people used min scouts. They still are. While Boyz were good. Underwhelming now. So...BaLaNcE indeed!
Well not really. Back then you were required to take a lot of troops choices and even then the Marine factions performed admirably. The big difference was that Marines would whittle down orkz at 24' range and then charge in to get that 2nd attack for charging, at that point it was a toss up of whether or not the Marines inflicted enough damage to finish the boyz off OR whether they would just tar pit them for the remainder of the game. Now? In all honesty? Marines are better point for point than Boyz or Beast Snaggaz at ranged combat by a LONG SHOT and in CC its actually fairly close call. the T5 really helps in CC but if you factor in the Morale issue the Marines are about even, especially if we compare them to the new Marine troops choice, Assault intercessors.
2021/08/10 19:16:11
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
We might have different experience with 5th edition. I used to play a lot but it was my first edition, so, not claiming too much but my experience was that Marines took either min squads of tacticals or none at all. Can barely remember any reason to actually run 10 man squads for anyone other than grey hunters but they were no vanilla Marines.
Whereas it was a normal sight to see 30-mn boy squads.
But I think it's rather irrelevant what two old farts remember about the good ol' days.
Going back to where we currently are, I think my assumption of our codex strength is very close to the truth. From what batreps that I've seen and from different tourneys that allready allow new orks, including large ones, we see that buggies are great. Mellee is rather meh for the few exceptions of squigosaurs and some min units like storm boyz or bikers to clear something weak off the flank objectives.
Planes are also pretty good, however, I haven't seen much blastajet showings, which I believe can be good as their shooting is nuts, but, I guess, people don't see the need for them in 2k games where they'll be shot down t1 simply cause they're too shooty and too expensive.
2021/08/10 19:42:01
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
koooaei wrote: We might have different experience with 5th edition. I used to play a lot but it was my first edition, so, not claiming too much but my experience was that Marines took either min squads of tacticals or none at all. Can barely remember any reason to actually run 10 man squads for anyone other than grey hunters but they were no vanilla Marines.
Whereas it was a normal sight to see 30-mn boy squads.
But I think it's rather irrelevant what two old farts remember about the good ol' days.
Going back to where we currently are, I think my assumption of our codex strength is very close to the truth. From what batreps that I've seen and from different tourneys that allready allow new orks, including large ones, we see that buggies are great. Mellee is rather meh for the few exceptions of squigosaurs and some min units like storm boyz or bikers to clear something weak off the flank objectives.
Planes are also pretty good, however, I haven't seen much blastajet showings, which I believe can be good as their shooting is nuts, but, I guess, people don't see the need for them in 2k games where they'll be shot down t1 simply cause they're too shooty and too expensive.
Haha, old farts is accurate, I think back then in 4th and 5th they would take the full squad and then combat squad to allow splitfire into different options. The flamer/melta would go forward to pop targets with the Sgt while the Lascannon/Missile launcher hung back to plink away all game long
But yeah, the here and now, Unless GW radically alters the ork codex, I don't see boyz in many tournament lists. What is really funny though is that GW is going to sell a metric fethload of buggies from 8th edition and a bunch of the new squig riders but they aren't going to sell many beast snagga infantry because they are functionally useless at their price point and with their morale issues.
SemperMortis wrote: Why would you ever put 10 choppa boyz in a trukk right now? That is 160pts for what amounts to a turn 2 threat at best (assuming not trukk boyz) 10 boyz in CC work out to 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg vs a Marine. If we are talking about Trukk boyz, I would never use boyz for that, and instead would use meganobz or just regular nobz. A trukk is just flat out over priced at 70ppm for what little it does. A Dark Eldar raider is 25ppm more and its 4' faster, +1 WS +2 BS, +1 LD and the same save. More importantly it comes stock standard with a Dark Lance, a CCW AND a 5++ it carries 1 fewer model than a trukk as well. Give the Trukk a 10pt price cut, bring it to WS3 and either a wreckin ball or a grabbing klaw for free and maybe its on a close to even footing, but likely not.
Well, if I'm not mistaken, right now a flat 65 points, 10 boyz and a nob cost 90 points for at total of 155 pts. If they are Goff, and they should be if you want them to perform, they can be a real turn two threat. These little guys, in Waaagh!, deal 41 attacks. That would mean around 34 hits (counting the explode on 6 hits of Goff). These 34 hits would generate around 22 wounds and those 22 wounds would cause 11 damage for 5 dead Space Marines (probably 6 since bagging a wound off one with the Trukk big shoota and a couple of slugga is feasible). The retaliation will likely kill two boyz which should not be too problematic for moral while the Space Marines would probably suffer some. The next round, the orks would do less damage with the loss of one point of strength and after taking some casualties, but in essence you have basically won. Those 10 Marines cost more than the Trukk and the boyz and those Marines basically stand no chance to kill the Trukk before it can do its job and deliver the boyz in close combat without purchasing more powerful weapons (thus increasing their cost) if they even have the option.
This is a good setup. It does its job for less point and is reasonably easy to pull of and doesn't require stratagem to work. It's biggest problem isn't that it's not good, but that killing infantry is piss easy for Orks. We have a plethora of tools for killing those. You can certainly find a more point efficient way of dealing with Space Marine. You could probably do it with about as much ease and half the cost with a Dakkajet or a minimal size MANZ squad mounted in a Trukk or a couple of Killa Kanz or a single Warboss mounted on a very angry squig who wants to speak with your manager. That's not even a problem unique to boyz. Space Marines themselves suffer from that problem. Many, many troop choice suffer of that issue.
Hell, even the often declared "OP" Wych don't deal that much more damage than their number in Goff boyz (in fact they do a little less in Cult of Strife on the charge, but its easier to pull very long range charges). The difference of course is that the Raider is actually very dangerous while the Trukk is just a delivery system, but you do pay for that damage. I'm far more scared of Kabalite Warriors or Skitarii who are actually very powerful troops who can do better some tasks than anything else in their codex. You will also note that both Dark Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus don't have nearly as much options as Orks or Space Marines when it comes to units thus much more chance to have a battlefield role open for their regular troops that isn't performed better by a more specialized unit in elite, fast attack or heavy support section. Let's be serious for a second. In high level tournaments, most troop choices are a tax and designated "action doing" unit. Then again, I'm not a high level player nor do I play in high level tournaments thus I don't give a crap about that sort of considerations. My only metric, is "does this thing can do what I want it to do" and to that answers, boyz still can. They just can't do the exact same thing in the exact same way they used too. I would even dare say they are more interesting now than in the days of "huge mobs that grab objectives and gets removed from the board".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.
This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules. Right now, I believe we will see them stabilize to certain point with Immortals being about as powerful as Space Marines (stronger at range, weaker in close combat and about as tough) with warriors being weaker than Space Marines, but pretty much at par when it comes to range damage output. If you change the fluff of a faction, you will have to change how they operate on the board to a certain point. If tomorrow GW decides that Wych Cults are no longer organizations composed of expert gladiatorial fighters who train obsessively to be the best duelists a combat drugged dark eldar can be and turns them into a sort of death cult composed of crazed killers obsessed with death (either their own or that of others), you would see their individual combat skill drop to reflect that change.
PS: I have been playing on and off, but following the hobby since early 3rd edition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 20:03:52
2021/08/10 20:18:10
Subject: Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.
Well, if I'm not mistaken, right now a flat 65 points, 10 boyz and a nob cost 90 points for at total of 155 pts. If they are Goff, and they should be if you want them to perform, they can be a real turn two threat. These little guys, in Waaagh!, deal 41 attacks. That would mean around 34 hits (counting the explode on 6 hits of Goff). These 34 hits would generate around 22 wounds and those 22 wounds would cause 11 damage for 5 dead Space Marines (probably 6 since bagging a wound off one with the Trukk big shoota and a couple of slugga is feasible). The retaliation will likely kill two boyz which should not be too problematic for moral while the Space Marines would probably suffer some. The next round, the orks would do less damage with the loss of one point of strength and after taking some casualties, but in essence you have basically won. Those 10 Marines cost more than the Trukk and the boyz and those Marines basically stand no chance to kill the Trukk before it can do its job and deliver the boyz in close combat without purchasing more powerful weapons (thus increasing their cost) if they even have the option.
This is a good setup. It does its job for less point and is reasonably easy to pull of and doesn't require stratagem to work. It's biggest problem isn't that it's not good, but that killing infantry is piss easy for Orks. We have a plethora of tools for killing those. You can certainly find a more point efficient way of dealing with Space Marine. You could probably do it with about as much ease and half the cost with a Dakkajet or a minimal size MANZ squad mounted in a Trukk or a couple of Killa Kanz or a single Warboss mounted on a very angry squig who wants to speak with your manager. That's not even a problem unique to boyz. Space Marines themselves suffer from that problem. Many, many troop choice suffer of that issue.
Hell, even the often declared "OP" Wych don't deal that much more damage than their number in Goff boyz (in fact they do a little less in Cult of Strife on the charge, but its easier to pull very long range charges). The difference of course is that the Raider is actually very dangerous while the Trukk is just a delivery system, but you do pay for that damage. I'm far more scared of Kabalite Warriors or Skitarii who are actually very powerful troops who can do better some tasks than anything else in their codex. You will also note that both Dark Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus don't have nearly as much options as Orks or Space Marines when it comes to units thus much more chance to have a battlefield role open for their regular troops that isn't performed better by a more specialized unit in elite, fast attack or heavy support section. Let's be serious for a second. In high level tournaments, most troop choices are a tax and designated "action doing" unit. Then again, I'm not a high level player nor do I play in high level tournaments thus I don't give a crap about that sort of considerations. My only metric, is "does this thing can do what I want it to do" and to that answers, boyz still can. They just can't do the exact same thing in the exact same way they used too. I would even dare say they are more interesting now than in the days of "huge mobs that grab objectives and gets removed from the board".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.
This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules. Right now, I believe we will see them stabilize to certain point with Immortals being about as powerful as Space Marines (stronger at range, weaker in close combat and about as tough) with warriors being weaker than Space Marines, but pretty much at par when it comes to range damage output. If you change the fluff of a faction, you will have to change how they operate on the board to a certain point. If tomorrow GW decides that Wych Cults are no longer organizations composed of expert gladiatorial fighters who train obsessively to be the best duelists a combat drugged dark eldar can be and turns them into a sort of death cult composed of crazed killers obsessed with death (either their own or that of others), you would see their individual combat skill drop to reflect that change.
PS: I have been playing on and off, but following the hobby since early 3rd edition.
The Trukk is flat 70pts now, which means 10 boyz in a trukk is 160pts. And yes, its a turn 2 threat, but when you look at real game scenarios, you will not be using it as a turn 2 threat unless you have a LOT of turn 2 threats to saturate the enemy because a trukk is rather fragile. The only way I see an enemy not fragging the trukk turn 1 is if you are leaning heavily into buggies and saturate that threat area so he has to prioritize the most important threats. But again, which would you rather have, 10 trukk boyz with an upgraded Nob in a trukk for 170pts or 2 buggies for 180pts.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.
Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.
Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.
But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.
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