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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.



The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


.....ALLLL of which got taken away or nerfed in the new 9th codex....


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Which took a mediocre mid level codex and made it competitive. And as Scotty so brilliantly put it...those are all gone or nerfed into oblivion.

Old SSAG was 2D6 shots, which you could spend CP to give it exploding 5s and 6s AND spend CP to make it shoot a second time.

New "SSAG" is 2D3 shots at BS4.

Old SSAG averaged 7 shots and 2.72 hits.
New SSAG averages 4 shots and 2 hits.

New SSAG you can't shoot twice.

I'm still having a good laugh though at the Super Grot Oiler. Pay 10 extra points to make a 5pt Oiler work twice. So total of 15pts to get the benefit of 10pts worth of upgrades which are themselves massively overpriced.

Christ it should be 5pt for an oiler and he functions all game and 10pts to double his effect. Than it might be taken occasionally.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

 the_scotsman wrote:

.....ALLLL of which got taken away or nerfed in the new 9th codex....



Yeah, man, I just don't get it. Like, it really is a meme as you said in another thread. It's Orks, Nids, or CSM where this crap happens edition-in edition-out. It's why I roll my eyes when people say "play the faction that you like! They all get time in the sun!". People should play the factions that they like of course, but you've gotta acknowledge that there are haves and have-nots.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




You could learn to like the factions that always have at least good rules.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
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North Carolina

Karol wrote:
You could learn to like the factions that always have at least good rules.


You said "factions", I thought it was only Eldar who always have good rules so shouldn't it be "faction"?
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.
   
Made in us
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 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 17:13:58


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





We wouldn't have this debate and the resulting problems, if GW hadn't make the mistake of giving Orks BS 2 since 3rd.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure it was a 5+ save in 4th ed. I do not remember it being a 4+ save.
But yeah, the KFF now is crap, especially that stratagem.


In 5th it was 4+ save and there even is a quote from Phil Kelly (the author of the 4th edition codex) playing it exactly that way.

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Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
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Fayetteville NC

Not quite sure how it will ultimately shake out for Ork players, but I'm glad to see the change to Mek Gunz. It got old facing 12+ Smasha Gunz all counting as individual weapons once on the table.

Whoah....I have played 40K for over 30 years.  
   
Made in us
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SemperMortis wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I am happy they finally took some units with poor number of shots and gave them a much needed boost like Burnaboyz and Lootas but I do lament the lack of DDD on 6s. It was a mechanic I always enjoyed even if it rarely paid dividends for me.


I agree with the majority here for the most part. DDD slowed the game down and added very little value beyond the occasional Rokkit shot and those even rarer instances where a Smasha gun fired 3 shots and ended with 6 hits.

The only problems I see with the new Dakka weapon replacement is

1: Its not assault, they gave orkz a crappier version of salvo weapons. The problem being that most weapons don't benefit from it at all, and the couple that do don't make up for the problem. I have run the numbers for people a number of times, the gist is Shoota boyz just got worse at shooting at mid-long range and got better at 9' or less. How often are shoota boyz getting 9 or less from an enemy and WANTING to shoot the target? Burna boyz got an upgrade, but they also nerfed their CC profile so its a mixed bag there. Lootas....christ lootas. A Loota now averages the same # of shots as a Auto-cannon Havoc. The difference is the Havoc hits on 3s the Loota hits on 5s. 3 lootas average 2 hits. 2 Havocs average 2.66 hits, The havoc also boasts that 3+ save and will likely be getting a 2nd (T5) wound when Chaos gets updated. Lootas and most "Dakka" weapons should have gotten probably 33-50% more shots. A Lootas instead of getting dakka 3(2) should have gotten 4(3). The shoota boyz? same profile 4(3).

2: How it synergizes with the rest of the codex. Orkz just got beaten to death with Morale for large units, and now Shoota boyz are less effective at range, meaning by the time they can actually benefit from there new dakka weapons they will be so depleted that they won't even have enough left to make an impact.


It's more of a crappier version of Rapid Fire than Salvo, since they can move and fire it.

That said, I'm not an Ork player and I don't like the Dakka weapons rule. What was wrong with [most of] them being Assault? Why does there need to be a whole weapons type that's Rapid Fire with 1.5x shots instead of 2x.
What the game doesn't need are more bespoke weapons, and I would hazard that Assault weapons are better for the Orks in general, even with a few more shots from Dakka.

That said, it's a good thing that the DDD rule is gone.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 23:08:10


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
It's more of a crappier version of Rapid Fire than Salvo, since they can move and fire it.

That said, I'm not an Ork player and I don't like the Dakka weapons rule. What was wrong with [most of] them being Assault? Why does there need to be a whole weapons type that's Rapid Fire with 1.5x shots instead of 2x.
What the game doesn't need are more bespoke weapons, and I would hazard that Assault weapons are better for the Orks in general, even with a few more shots from Dakka.

That said, it's a good thing that the DDD rule is gone.



Even if you could run you wouldn't really want to.

( big shoota ) 3 * .333 = 1 and 5 * .167 = 0.83.

Even choppa bikers double dipping on great Waagh doesn't get them to do better than just letting loose with their guns.

108 * .167 * .666 * .5 = 6
37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 // choppas

vs

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12

It's a false choice that nobody would/should actually use and would wind up being just plink damage most of the time ( aka more dice rolling ).



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 01:46:58


   
Made in us
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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Even if you could run you wouldn't really want to.

( big shoota ) 3 * .333 = 1 and 5 * .167 = 0.83.

Even choppa bikers double dipping on great Waagh doesn't get them to do better than just letting loose with their guns.

108 * .167 * .666 * .5 = 6
37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 // choppas

vs

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12

It's a false choice that nobody would/should actually use and would wind up being just plink damage most of the time ( aka more dice rolling ).


unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sarigar wrote:
Not quite sure how it will ultimately shake out for Ork players, but I'm glad to see the change to Mek Gunz. It got old facing 12+ Smasha Gunz all counting as individual weapons once on the table.


Maybe if GW had given orkz ranged weapons that worked, ork players wouldn't have had to rely on the 1 that did so heavily. Don't worry though, Mek Gunz are effectively dead. You will see them in single gun batteries now since if you deploy them as a group of 3, and your opponent kills 1 of them, you have a 50/50 chance to fail morale and lose the 2nd gun, which then means you have a 50/50 of losing the last gun to attrition. Good work GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 02:30:35


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble. This was a pseudo Invuln save since at the time not many had "Ignores Cover" weapons. Its 8th edition iteration was a bit of a nerf but not bad since it became a 5+ Invuln save. The biggest issue was that it also made the bubble 9' range and the unit had to be wholly within the bubble to receive the benefit. SO you had an 18' diameter bubble of protection, it was a nerf but not that bad since it also became an invuln save. Now, the newest version is a 6+ Invuln save on a 6' bubble but you can toe into the bubble again like in older editions. So theoretically (Bull Gak honestly) you can fit more units under it and give a plethora of models a 6+ invuln they previously didn't have. In reality its a massive nerf because team that with the new Cohesion rules for 9th, the new Mob rule for orkz and our abysmal leadership. You aren't going to be conga lining blobs of 30 boyz back to your Big mek to get a 6+ save, especially since (as i have pointed out to others) instead of getting all those mobz of boyz to conga line back to the KFF Big Mek who also received a hefty price increase to go along with his new "better" KFF you could just upgrade each boy for 2ppm into Snagga boyz who inherently have a 6+++ AND have S5 instead of S4.

BTW, that Big Mek with KFF went from 60pts with a 5+++ 9' bubble wholly within to 85pts with a 6+++ 6' bubble that you have to touch. And before anyone says "Just use the CP to turn it back into the 5+++" yeah no, it costs 2 CP to buff the new KFF into a slightly better version of the older KFF and than it promptly explodes and you can't even use its crappier 6+++ for hte rest of the game. GW has driven home the point they don't want KFF Big mekz on the table.


Thanks for the breakdown. Wow :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.
And again. :/

Not a fan of the treatments.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 02:55:09


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm still surprised that they changed the Rokkit to Heavy rather than Assault.

Seems like a real step backwards given the playstyle of Orks.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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^Lame.

God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.
Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons going to Heavy would be horrendous.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Curious how 9 Tankbustas compare to 3 Deffkoptas, since they have a similar role (Rokkit Powah!), similar cost (153 vs 150), but different construction... Koptas are all about scoot n shoot while Tankbustas want to squat and rock, but how do they compare in final damage output? In damage resistance? Heck, melee?

Curious.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.
Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons going to Heavy would be horrendous.


That, or if they try to change Synapse to a mere immunity from combat attrition while leaving the units with the lowest leadership values in the game. That would be a disaster for so many datasheets.
   
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Italy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still surprised that they changed the Rokkit to Heavy rather than Assault.

Seems like a real step backwards given the playstyle of Orks.


The funny part is that lootas don't carry heavy weapons anymore while their autocannons' equivalent has always been heavy. And they're still a heavy support choice.

Tankbustas who could alwyas move and shoot without penalty now they can't. But even if they carry heavy weapons they're still elites .


 
   
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Just in case it happens and I'll look prescient, I can sort of squint to the KFF having some play as going second insurance.

85 points and the CP is steep - but throwing a 5++ up to blunt certain armies turn 2 death roll (or turn 1 shooting, situation depending) would potentially increase your chances of winning games - because some times you'll roll a disproportionate number of 5s and 6s.
   
Made in de
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Wakshaani wrote:
Curious how 9 Tankbustas compare to 3 Deffkoptas, since they have a similar role (Rokkit Powah!), similar cost (153 vs 150), but different construction... Koptas are all about scoot n shoot while Tankbustas want to squat and rock, but how do they compare in final damage output? In damage resistance? Heck, melee?

Curious.


Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.

Koptas on the other hand are super flexible and mobile, but are rather easy to kill with dedicated anti-tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Just in case it happens and I'll look prescient, I can sort of squint to the KFF having some play as going second insurance.

85 points and the CP is steep - but throwing a 5++ up to blunt certain armies turn 2 death roll (or turn 1 shooting, situation depending) would potentially increase your chances of winning games - because some times you'll roll a disproportionate number of 5s and 6s.


Sorry, but no. This is essentially the "distraction carnifex" argument, if a unit is not worth bringing unless you get lucky or your opponent is making mistakes, it's never worth bringing.

MA meks with ded shiney shoota or a morkanaut have other uses even after they have burned out the KFF, so you could argue for bringing them, especially since there is little opportunity cost besides paying a few points. But bringing a character that has no other use? Nope.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 10:00:14


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Removed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 12:19:52


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 Jidmah wrote:
Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.
What about the new Bunker? A unit can sit in that and fire. Or is that just better with Lootas as they have a longer range?

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.
What about the new Bunker? A unit can sit in that and fire. Or is that just better with Lootas as they have a longer range?


Sadly, the great rules for deploying fortifications make it just as useless as any other fortification. And technically, that would be using both a transport and tellyporta

Lootas would be better, but you could also just toss them in a trukk to actually line up shots and make use of that Dakka 3/2. Stationary shooting units don't work that well because of terrain - unlike you do with other armies, just shooting through dense terrain isn't really an option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 10:28:33


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but no. This is essentially the "distraction carnifex" argument, if a unit is not worth bringing unless you get lucky or your opponent is making mistakes, it's never worth bringing.

MA meks with ded shiney shoota or a morkanaut have other uses even after they have burned out the KFF, so you could argue for bringing them, especially since there is little opportunity cost besides paying a few points. But bringing a character that has no other use? Nope.


Fair point. I hadn't considered the MA Mek with Ded Shiney Shoota. That seems like a reasonable combo that would do what I had in mind better (if it works at all that is.)
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Jidmah wrote:
Lootas would be better, but you could also just toss them in a trukk to actually line up shots and make use of that Dakka 3/2. Stationary shooting units don't work that well because of terrain - unlike you do with other armies, just shooting through dense terrain isn't really an option.
Ah right, yes. BS5. Cover basically halves your output. Fair enough.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Italy

Since they carry heavy weapons at the moment fielding tankbustas could make sense only as some sort of gamble. Position them near the centre of the board (on foot in cover or embarked in a trukk) and hope for 1st turn. This way they'll most likely have a juicy target to aim at, hitting it on 4s. Then hope for getting an high number of shots.

Tankbustas hitting on 6s or even 5s are simply not worthy. That's why I call them a gamble, there's no reliable plan to make them good, just pray that they can get their job done in turn 1. They have the potential to do great things, but they highly depend on luck.

It doesn't help the fact that there are several units in the codex that can compete for the same job. Lootas at least have a different weapon's profile and can be played in a much more intelligent way. Flash gitz also have the same problems of tankbustas but, like lootas, their weapons have a different profile and for that they can have a role and since modiefiers are capped at +/-1 they'd still on 5s in worst case scenarios.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 10:48:13



 
   
Made in pl
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Tankbustas could only work if they had a flat 4 number of shots, possibly with access to re-rolls. They would still be a gamble unit, like anything that has its initial roll based around a 50/50 or worse roll.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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