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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Was DDD really that much effort? Shoot guns, add some more dice because you rolled 6s. It wasn't a herculean task or anything.


My usual opponent is Bad Moons. His rolls to hit meant rolling all the dice, then re-rolling the ones, then counting the total, then separating out the 6s, then re-rolling those, then re-rolling the 1s, then counting the total and adding to the original total.

When he was regularly doing 40+ shots at a time it absolutely was a tedious pain in the ass to roll all those dice. Now he'll just roll a fixed amount of dice and count the hits. Sure, he still has a triggers-on-6s ability for being Bad Moons, but it just creates a separate pool of AP-1 rather than requiring re-rolling; we can use differently colored dice on the ensuing saves or just roll them separately.

Simply giving Orks more shots so they can throw tons of dice fits their fluff just fine. DDD was a tedious mechanic that didn't add much.

   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






That makes sense and sounds like quite a pain, thanks for explaining. I've actually never encountered a Bad Moons player so the Ork rerolling sounded foreign to me, most other Ork players I've met have been either Goffs or Evil Sunz while I add the variety of Blood Axes.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 G00fySmiley wrote:
to me DDD will not be missed, I would prefer that most reroll mechanics were removed from the game and they were more of a limited to a few units per book. the bigger breakign to me is the dakka weapons not being by default assault as that has been a key aspect to ork armies since i started playing in 4th


Yeah, there's a ton of things in the new Ork 'dex that I'd love...

...if they were applied equally to all other armies, and it wasn't just orks playing with one hand tied behind their back while everyone else enjoys the full excesses of 'have your cake and eat it too' codexes, strats, buffs, auras, and stacking army-wide abilities.

-Specialist Mobz not stacking with but instead replacing subfaction bonuses is vastly better game design than the stacking doctrine+superdoctrine purity bonus scheme
-Basically every aura being the non-stacking +1 to hit aura is a fantastic way of making it so there's no way to multiplicatively stack up this aura from this character and that aura from that character and this other aura from over here to create a super-duper-duper buffed unit that punches massively over its weight class
-Leadership being an actual factor offsets the natural advantages of big unit blocks, meaning that there's an actual cost, but an actual extant bonus, to stacking most units out. I don't know if the bonus is good enough to make blocks bigger than 10 worthwhile (I really think there should have been *one* extra rule to encourage the traditional 30-blocks of boyz/snaggas, ideally something defensive)

The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Rokkits and KMB's basically doubled their damage output on average. Firing at units of 6 or more triple the damage output

Huge buff


On vehicles Rokkitz are significantly better, except in CC where a lot of ork vehicles want to be, now they can't be used in CC. On Infantry though...not so much. Moving the weapon from assault to Heavy means that those D3 shots average 2 shots and instead of hitting on 5s with exploding 6s its now just hitting on 6s. I've run the math in other places but the gist of it is that if you roll a 1-2 you lose a significant amount of dmg output. If you roll a 3-4 you lose a little bit of dmg output and if you roll a 5-6 you get a bit better dmg output than with just Assault 1 rokkitz.

So rokkitz became worse on most infantry units, I especially love that the Warboss auto-takes a Kombi Rokkit. The Shoota aspect is useless and the rokkit will always be hitting on 6s because there won't be a turn where a warboss is standing still in the movement phase.

As far as "Firing at units of 6 or more" Yeah...that doesn't really happen often does it? Is it worth it to fire those rokkitz into horde units, even Wyches and other light infantry? Not particularly. The real target of choice of a rokkit is and always was Space Marines. Medium to Heavy infantry with multi-wounds. How many squads of 6+ Primaris or firstborn do you see running around the top tables right now?

 catbarf wrote:

My usual opponent is Bad Moons. His rolls to hit meant rolling all the dice, then re-rolling the ones, then counting the total, then separating out the 6s, then re-rolling those, then re-rolling the 1s, then counting the total and adding to the original total.

When he was regularly doing 40+ shots at a time it absolutely was a tedious pain in the ass to roll all those dice. Now he'll just roll a fixed amount of dice and count the hits. Sure, he still has a triggers-on-6s ability for being Bad Moons, but it just creates a separate pool of AP-1 rather than requiring re-rolling; we can use differently colored dice on the ensuing saves or just roll them separately.

Simply giving Orks more shots so they can throw tons of dice fits their fluff just fine. DDD was a tedious mechanic that didn't add much.


The far simpler solution would have been to just give orkz AUTO hits on 6s instead of extra shots. Rokkitz would have been fine at Assault 2 if they had that. Basically GW created a problem with DDD in order to buff piss poor ork shooting and than made it worse by removing it, adding an even clunkier rule, forgetting to update a host of rules that no longer work for the most part now that Dakka is the weapon type instead of assault, and than said "YAY look at us! we made ork shooting better!" completely ignoring basic math and common sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.





   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Gotta fit those Preorder DLC in it somehow Gene...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Ork green tide style lists were doing ok in 9th as a counter-meta list, their biggest issue was they couldn't inflict much dmg in CC and they died in droves, but thanks to morale shenanigans they were able to stick around to at least hold a point for a few turns. Now, orkz do -1AP in CC with choppas, AND have T5 to be even tougher. But to counter balance those buffs they took away our morale and increased points as well as nerfing our durability enhancing KFF. If you factor in those things orkz are now LESS durable than last edition, and once you take away casualties from a single round of shooting, orkz do less dmg in CC.

Shooting wise, Shoota boyz are...underwhelming even in "Dakka" range. If you can magically get 30 Ork shoota boyz into Dakka range (9 inches) they get 90 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds and against a Space Marine tac unit that is 2.5 dead Marines. 270pts killing 36-54, or if they are Intercessors its 40-60.

As far as the "Augmented with kustom jobz and new strats" yeah, PA which was playable for about 2 hours was great for those things. Sadly with the new codex, all the competitive strats and kustom jobz are gone. Of the new Kustom Jobz only 1-2 are truly useful, the rest are situational at best and garbage at worst. Here is my current favorite one.

Bionik Oiler: For the low low price of 10pts you can re-use the ability of the 5pt Grot Oiler in a game. So instead of once per game its twice per game. So for 200% the price of the damn upgrade you can use it 1 extra time.

or you could always take the heavily over priced Big Mek with SAG and pay an extra 15pts to upgrade it from D6 shots to 2D3 shots! Average going up from a measly 3.5 shots a turn to a powerful, game breaking 4.


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

SemperMortis wrote:
But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Apart from the 2nd wound on Death Company Marines and sidegrading Encarmine weapons from d3 to 2d, the 9th edition supplement for BA is a straight nerf compared to PA.
Hyperbole, of course. But it is like 8 sidegrades / nerfs to 2 buffs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:21:42


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Apart from the 2nd wound on Death Company Marines and sidegrading Encarmine weapons from d3 to 2d, the 9th edition supplement for BA is a straight nerf compared to PA.
Hyperbole, of course. But it is like 8 sidegrades / nerfs to 2 buffs.


9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

SemperMortis wrote:
9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.

I thought about the numbers and why it doesn't match up with my perception.
Sadly, 40k Stats only got limited data for the 2020 season. 8th edition BA with PA supplement had a 47.24% win rate during the 2020 tournament months. If I look at the current subfaction results without excluding anything (https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results), BA got a 44.68% win rate.

The power shift I feel wasn't from PA to Supplement. It was from standalone codex to consolidated one. Psychic discipline and Stratagems weren't part of PA. The supplement just didn't give back, what was lost in the codex.

I can't follow where you get your numbers from. Overall faction date (https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report) gives me BA at 44.78%, from start of 9th to release of their codex compared to the 53% you wrote.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:47:43


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 Blackie wrote:
Not only they removed DDD but also pretty much every source of re-rolls. Bad moons trait, Badrukk aura, tankbustas re-rolls against vehicles, grots' subkultur trait, deathskulls stratagem etc... all gone. I don't think orks can re-roll hits/wounds somehow now, other than using Ghaz's aura.

They increased the number of shots of a lot of stuff to compensate that though, sometimes even the damage characteristic and/or the AP.


GW seems to be backing away from rerolls except for a few elite factions. A lot of AoS factions lost their rerolls in the AoS 3.0 FAQ for example.

-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Eldarsif wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Not only they removed DDD but also pretty much every source of re-rolls. Bad moons trait, Badrukk aura, tankbustas re-rolls against vehicles, grots' subkultur trait, deathskulls stratagem etc... all gone. I don't think orks can re-roll hits/wounds somehow now, other than using Ghaz's aura.

They increased the number of shots of a lot of stuff to compensate that though, sometimes even the damage characteristic and/or the AP.


GW seems to be backing away from rerolls except for a few elite factions. A lot of AoS factions lost their rerolls in the AoS 3.0 FAQ for example.


I actually like that. I like rolls to be definitive. If you have a bad roll and roll a ton of 1-2's , tought gak. Thats what makes memorable moments. When everything is rerolled for the mathematically expected result it gets old fast.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Absolutely agree, you get great memories out of great rolls and poor rolls. I still remember when I made 6 Armor Saves in a row on a Kill Team game, it was quite fun.

Getting a 1 on a Lascannon shot is a feel bad moment, but that quickly snowballed into rerolls becoming ubiquitous to nearly every faction.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




That's also why they should get rid of the CP reroll!
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Absolutely agree, you get great memories out of great rolls and poor rolls. I still remember when I made 6 Armor Saves in a row on a Kill Team game, it was quite fun.

Getting a 1 on a Lascannon shot is a feel bad moment, but that quickly snowballed into rerolls becoming ubiquitous to nearly every faction.


the fails can be the best one of my most memerable games was 5th edition space wolves vs my orks. orks went first. 2 SAGs both roll double 1's and eliminate a large portion of my army. every nit fails morale checks. at the end of top of turn 1 not one model was left on the table as they self destructed and ran.

Also a noteable failure 15 loota mob, rolled 3 for number of shots. 45 shots and all missed

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Hahahaha, that is a very Orky battle when they self destruct on the first turn. I bet if they were facing Imperial Guard the immense sigh of relief seeing the Orks explode then scamper off.

My Lootas always seem to roll 1 for my number of shots. Love the models but they are jinxed.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
I totally see why they removed it to make the game faster.

I just don't understand why they added Blade Artists then.


Blade artist isn't a re-roll it's an activated ability on a fixed roll.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.

I thought about the numbers and why it doesn't match up with my perception.
Sadly, 40k Stats only got limited data for the 2020 season. 8th edition BA with PA supplement had a 47.24% win rate during the 2020 tournament months. If I look at the current subfaction results without excluding anything (https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results), BA got a 44.68% win rate.

The power shift I feel wasn't from PA to Supplement. It was from standalone codex to consolidated one. Psychic discipline and Stratagems weren't part of PA. The supplement just didn't give back, what was lost in the codex.

I can't follow where you get your numbers from. Overall faction date (https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report) gives me BA at 44.78%, from start of 9th to release of their codex compared to the 53% you wrote.


https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

expanded 40kstats where you can pick dates.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't doubt BA can be good in a more casual setting since some of our units are quite brutal in melee and if you don't play very optimized it might be hard to counter.

In a competitive setting they suck though. DG and DA decreases our output by half or more and we just bounce off them in melee and we are worse in durability and shooting. Some of the DA and DG lists by accident just hard counters BA. Sisters and Drukhari hit as hard but are also faster and cheaper. Ad mech even have more reliable deep strike charges than BA just to rub it in that they are OP.

BA isn't in the top 3 fastest space marine chapters anymore after they nerfed the strats that made BA so good(at least in soup) during 8th. So BA lost their tricks and speed and now compete in effiency, which looked viable when Sanguinary Guard were revealed at 30pts(32 now) a model, but the codexes released after the supplement either just were made to counter BA like DA and DG or are way more efficient as in Drukhari or Ad mech.

Our best psychic power in the Sanguine discipline got hit by direct 3! nerfs in the supplement. It's more expensive, it lost rerolls and only works in psychic phase so no fly in other phases. Our melee characters got way worse without any stratagem support anyway so now a librarian dreadnought or mephiston hit like a wet noodle so even if wings weren't tripple nerfed you still wouldn't want it.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm very disappointed with Dakka weapons most of the time they're just gakker Rapid Fire weapons. I'd have preferred GW either making everything Assault and give them an extra shot, or making everything Rapid Fire.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Galas wrote:


I actually like that. I like rolls to be definitive. If you have a bad roll and roll a ton of 1-2's , tought gak. Thats what makes memorable moments. When everything is rerolled for the mathematically expected result it gets old fast.


well that is all well and nice, when you play cheap armies that can spam stuff or have guns that are doing multi shoting. there is a difference with rolling 2-3 1s or 2s from a squad of 4 devastators with MMs using their cherub, and shoting a single lascanon and getting a one, when you have no re-rolls.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Ork green tide style lists were doing ok in 9th as a counter-meta list, their biggest issue was they couldn't inflict much dmg in CC and they died in droves, but thanks to morale shenanigans they were able to stick around to at least hold a point for a few turns. Now, orkz do -1AP in CC with choppas, AND have T5 to be even tougher. But to counter balance those buffs they took away our morale and increased points as well as nerfing our durability enhancing KFF. If you factor in those things orkz are now LESS durable than last edition, and once you take away casualties from a single round of shooting, orkz do less dmg in CC.

Shooting wise, Shoota boyz are...underwhelming even in "Dakka" range. If you can magically get 30 Ork shoota boyz into Dakka range (9 inches) they get 90 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds and against a Space Marine tac unit that is 2.5 dead Marines. 270pts killing 36-54, or if they are Intercessors its 40-60.

As far as the "Augmented with kustom jobz and new strats" yeah, PA which was playable for about 2 hours was great for those things. Sadly with the new codex, all the competitive strats and kustom jobz are gone. Of the new Kustom Jobz only 1-2 are truly useful, the rest are situational at best and garbage at worst. Here is my current favorite one.

Bionik Oiler: For the low low price of 10pts you can re-use the ability of the 5pt Grot Oiler in a game. So instead of once per game its twice per game. So for 200% the price of the damn upgrade you can use it 1 extra time.

or you could always take the heavily over priced Big Mek with SAG and pay an extra 15pts to upgrade it from D6 shots to 2D3 shots! Average going up from a measly 3.5 shots a turn to a powerful, game breaking 4.

Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.

   
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I think overall the 9th codex is more solid than 8th one. And I've not even considered a single datasheet from the new snagga units yet since I don't own them and I'm not interested to buy them, but I've read that there's some very good stuff in there.

So some mechanics or units have been nerfed, but the army wasn't. In fact I think its internal balance is way higher now.


 
   
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Lammia 799930 11186531 wrote:Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.

It is a good way, for balance, to write books this way, as long as they are writen for books which are already good or mid tier. If lets say tau got a book today, and it had 8 side grades, one buff and two nerfs, the codex would be a rather horrible thing to expiriance for an old or new player. Sometimes I wish GW would just do their bad books at the very start of an edition, so people could know the army is going to be bad for the next 2-3 years, and just do something else. No waiting for a fix, or a new codex. Just plain and simple imperial knights will not work in this edition as a memo, and all the knight players can go and do something else.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble. This was a pseudo Invuln save since at the time not many had "Ignores Cover" weapons. Its 8th edition iteration was a bit of a nerf but not bad since it became a 5+ Invuln save. The biggest issue was that it also made the bubble 9' range and the unit had to be wholly within the bubble to receive the benefit. SO you had an 18' diameter bubble of protection, it was a nerf but not that bad since it also became an invuln save. Now, the newest version is a 6+ Invuln save on a 6' bubble but you can toe into the bubble again like in older editions. So theoretically (Bull Gak honestly) you can fit more units under it and give a plethora of models a 6+ invuln they previously didn't have. In reality its a massive nerf because team that with the new Cohesion rules for 9th, the new Mob rule for orkz and our abysmal leadership. You aren't going to be conga lining blobs of 30 boyz back to your Big mek to get a 6+ save, especially since (as i have pointed out to others) instead of getting all those mobz of boyz to conga line back to the KFF Big Mek who also received a hefty price increase to go along with his new "better" KFF you could just upgrade each boy for 2ppm into Snagga boyz who inherently have a 6+++ AND have S5 instead of S4.

BTW, that Big Mek with KFF went from 60pts with a 5+++ 9' bubble wholly within to 85pts with a 6+++ 6' bubble that you have to touch. And before anyone says "Just use the CP to turn it back into the 5+++" yeah no, it costs 2 CP to buff the new KFF into a slightly better version of the older KFF and than it promptly explodes and you can't even use its crappier 6+++ for hte rest of the game. GW has driven home the point they don't want KFF Big mekz on the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 10:27:50


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Dakka Dakka Dakka should have been :

"When firing a Dakka weapon, any unmodified hit roll of 6 generates an additionnal hit."

Dakka weapons : same list of weapons as now, but with 8th profiles.

Plain and simple. Gives Orks a BS 4+ for some weapons which mitigates their *huge* vulnerability to negative modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 11:36:33


Deffskullz desert scavengers
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on the forum. Obviously

SemperMortis wrote:
Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble.

Pretty sure it was a 5+ save in 4th ed. I do not remember it being a 4+ save.
But yeah, the KFF now is crap, especially that stratagem.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 11:40:43


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In older editions it granted cover for the units under the bubble. Which meant 5+ for infantries and 4+ for vehicles. In 5th lining up 3 BWs with a big mek embarked in the one in the centre was a legit and popular tactic to give 4+ cover save to all three vehicles.

Only lasted one edition though. And in 3rd cover for a vehicles just meant a semi-useless -1 result to the damage table. Current version of KFF is almost as bad as that 3rd edition type of KFF, which was the worst version of KFF ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 11:48:37



 
   
 
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