The Aegis Protects! Grey Knights 9e Tactics and Discussion

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Phoenixcrh**

Battalion Detachment.
Swordbearers Brotherhood.
Tide of Shadows.
HQ.
Grandmaster, nemesis dreadknight, teleporter homer, nemesis greatsword, heavy psycannon, gatling psilencer, fortelling of locus, sigil of exigence, unyielding anvil, warlord, smite, empyric lodestone, gate of infinity, empyric amplification = 245.

Brotherhood librarian, gem of inoktu, artisan nullifier matrix, psychic epitome, smite, empyric lodestone, vortex of doom, purifying flame = 120. (Shield of Humanity, Armoury of Titan).

Troops.
3x5 strike squads, smite, empyric lodestone, hammerhand = 330.

Elites.
3x4 servitors = 90.

Fast Attack.
2x10 interceptors, smite, empyric lodestone, ethereal castigation = 480.

x5 interceptors, smite, empyric lodestone, ethereal castigation = 120.

Heavy Support.
x3 nemesis dreadknights, nemesis greatsword, heavy psycannon, gatling psilencer, smite, empyric lodestone, hammerhand = 525.

Total = 2000.
Models = 55 + 4 vehicles.
Command points = 12-1-1 = 10.

**Elric Greywolf**

I ran some numbers on how to leverage the Tide of Convergence the best.

This is definitely a best case scenario, as there are many moving parts and several areas that could fail.

This requires a 10 man squad of Rapiers Infantry, Draigo, and a Chappie.
Command Phase: Draigo gives them full rerolls to hit and Chappie gives them Words of Power (wounds of 6 do 2 wounds and a mortal).
Movement Phase they set up a charge.
Psychic Phase the squad casts Hammerhand on itself (wound rerolls) and play Mental Focus Strat to also cast Symphonic Strike (+1A for each model). Then make sure you're in Tide of Convergence (wounds of 6 do a mortal) via Warp Shaping.
Shooting Phase n/a.
Charge in and fight. Play Rapiers's Deadly Efficiency Strat (hits of 6 do an extra hit).

At this point, you have spent 2CP, cast 2 powers, and passed the Chappie test. That is three things that could fail, so you may want to have auto-passed the Litany instead (for an extra CP) and perhaps rerolled a failed test (for another CP).

The unit has 41 attacks hitting on 3s with rerolls. This results in 15.91 hits on a 3-5 and 8.33 hits on a 6, generating an additional 8.33 hits, for a total of ~32.5 hits.
Rolling to wound, fishing for sixes via Hammerhand's full rerolls gives you 9.93 sixes to wound.

So that's roughly 20 mortals and 20 saves at AP-2 or -3 D2, plus the damage from the other wound results (and how many you get depends on the target's T, but anywhere from 0 to 20 additional).

It's a real shame we lost the fight twice Strat...but this is probably why we did.

**yukishiro1**

It's actually a lot better than that. With all those buffs you're looking at like ~50 wounds against T4, or ~35 vs T8. Each at -3AP 2D. Plus the 20ish mortals. It's absurd to the point where you'd never need anywhere near that much damage. Even a 5 man squad with all those buffs kills just about anything in the game. Or a 10 man with quite a bit fewer of them.

**Audustum**

Elric Greywolf wrote:
I ran some numbers on how to leverage the Tide of Convergence the best.

This is definitely a best case scenario, as there are many moving parts and several areas that could fail.

This requires a 10 man squad of Rapiers Infantry, Draigo, and a Chappie.
Command Phase: Draigo gives them full rerolls to hit and Chappie gives them Words of Power (wounds of 6 do 2 wounds and a mortal).
Movement Phase they set up a charge.
Psychic Phase the squad casts Hammerhand on itself (wound rerolls) and play Mental Focus Strat to also cast Symphonic Strike (+1A for each model). Then make sure you're in Tide of Convergence (wounds of 6 do a mortal) via Warp Shaping.
Shooting Phase n/a.
Charge in and fight. Play Rapiers's Deadly Efficiency Strat (hits of 6 do an extra hit).

At this point, you have spent 2CP, cast 2 powers, and passed the Chappie test. That is three things that could fail, so you may want to have auto-passed the Litany instead (for an extra CP) and perhaps rerolled a failed test (for another CP).

The unit has 41 attacks hitting on 3s with rerolls. This results in 15.91 hits on a 3-5 and 8.33 hits on a 6, generating an additional 8.33 hits, for a total of ~32.5 hits.
Rolling to wound, fishing for sixes via Hammerhand's full rerolls gives you 9.93 sixes to wound.

So that's roughly 20 mortals and 20 saves at AP-2 or -3 D2, plus the damage from the other wound results (and how many you get depends on the target's T, but anywhere from 0 to 20 additional).

It's a real shame we lost the fight twice Strat...but this is probably why we did.

There's more to do here.

Don't forget since you have Draigo/Chap already, have one of them cast Empyric Amplification (+1 damage). Now you're Strikes are flat 3 when they punch through, even without MW.

**Niiru**

yukishiro1 wrote:

Sisters...maybe? Deathwatch I don't really see. IMO the potential advantage is bringing in something GK doesn't have that opens up other options for how you play. So what doesn't GK have? Tour things IMO: (1) survivable anvils that can live through almost anything - e.g. a Telemon, (2) cheap, effective 1W bodies for screens, actions, etc - e.g. Guardsmen, (3) indirect fire, and (4) fight priority manipulation, i.e. good fights last / fights first. I think anything that brings one of these is something to think about tactically. With the caveat that you need to think carefully about if what you're losing makes what you're souping ineffective. E.g. a block of 20 vanguard or rangers isn't going to be a good idea because losing doctrina imperatives really hurts that unit.

If I were going to try to make a Sisters/GK list work, I'd probably start with something like a valorous heart patrol with the canoness who can ignore invulns and make everything fight last once a game, backed up by some sacrestans. That gives you three things you don't have in GK - good fights last, ability to ignore invulns, and models that are a massive pain to kill. Then kind-of go from there re: what you can take from each codex that complements the other. I'm not at all sure it'd be stronger than going mono-faction with either list, but it'd be different and interesting and worth toying with. Edit: Oh blah, you can't get the ignore invulns without miracle dice, which you only get for being pure. It's still a 3" fights last which is pretty good, but that lowers the value of that model quite a bit.

I think where you'll see the most benefit is in adding a bit of GK to something that doesn't currently have a purity bonus - i.e. custodes or guard. A GK detachment of like 500-750 points - a super librarian who can put out 10MW a turn, and some power armor units that can add a bunch of efficient trading units - adds a lot to both those armies that they don't have, while they don't actually pay anything for it since they don't have a purity bonus. Guard benefits tremendously from efficient melee, something the book just doesn't have, while custodes benefit a lot from the trading potential MSU GK squads have, both melee focused and something like a purgation squad that can offer a DS-based ranged threat at less than half the price of venetari.

Yeh I have no interest in guard really, or custodes. Just thought some flamer sisters and some grey knights would make for a cool army haha, and then trying to figure out how to make it actually work in reality!

**yukishiro1**

It's probably not a bad combo as far as those two factions go, flamers don't really get much advantage out of miracle dice which is the huge thing you lose from souping. It's not something GK really lack - incinerators are pretty good, and storm bolters are kinda like flamers in that they put out a lot of mid-S, low AP volume - but rule of cool is worth a lot. If it moves you, try it! It probably wouldn't be *bad*, just not top-tier competitive.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

So, what are people think with regards to Nemesis Weapons? I think Falchions are out now that GKSS got more attacks, so now its between swords and halberds (with Justicars/Paragons/Knights always getting Hammers when possible).

I play mostly other SM factions and perhaps soon Necrons if my friend jumps back into the game, so I think the extra AP on the sword will be more valuable to me overall.

**yukishiro1**

Swords are definitely the best choice on strikes IMO, having access to reroll wounds lowers the value of strength significantly, and they'll blend anything in the game pretty much anyway - except stuff with a 2+ that ignores AP-1 and AP-2, if you don't have the AP-3 from the swords to bypass those abilities. On interceptors halbreds become more interesting since they don't have reroll wounds, and that brings you to wounding on 2s vs DE and Ad Mech, which is significant.

Taking one stave may be worth it for the option of the 5++ strat; it's certainly worth it on a 10-man IMO.

**Niiru**

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's probably not a bad combo as far as those two factions go, flamers don't really get much advantage out of miracle dice which is the huge thing you lose from souping. It's not something GK really lack - incinerators are pretty good, and storm bolters are kinda like flamers in that they put out a lot of mid-S, low AP volume - but rule of cool is worth a lot. If it moves you, try it! It probably wouldn't be *bad*, just not top-tier competitive.

I don't think you can have widespread incinerators (unfortunately - full squads of incinerators might be cool). Though I may be wrong on this. I'd also want to add in something like Celestine - something to go with a Grand Master Dreadknight as an imperial Daemon Prince tag team. .

**yukishiro1**

You can take four in a purgation squad of 5, if that's your jam. But yeah, Celestine sounds like another good fit, she's a very survivable piece, and suffering and sacrifice is an excellent strat for cross-faction synergy since it doesn't depend on what you are protecting being SoB. There's actually some really cool stuff you can do re: using her as a way to protect your deadly but squishy strike squads from getting killed in melee - 6" heroic with her, pop the strat, and they have to go onto her, leaving your strikes the chance to slice them up.

She even gives your GK infantry a 6+ invuln, a really rare example of actual cross-book synergy. It's not a lot - you need to be getting shot by -4AP to make it do anything - but it's something.

The more I think about it, the more I think that's probably the thing you build around in a sob/GK list. Still not sure it's going to win any tournaments, but it's a really cool interaction.

**Niiru**

yukishiro1 wrote:
You can take four in a purgation squad of 5, if that's your jam. But yeah, Celestine sounds like another good fit, she's a very survivable piece, and suffering and sacrifice is an excellent strat for cross-faction synergy since it doesn't depend on what you are protecting being SoB. There's actually some really cool stuff you can do re: using her as a way to protect your deadly but squishy strike squads from getting killed in melee - 6" heroic with her, pop the strat, and they have to go onto her, leaving your strikes the chance to slice them up.

She even gives your GK infantry a 6+ invuln, a really rare example of actual cross-book synergy. It's not a lot - you need to be getting shot by -4AP to make it do anything - but it's something.

The more I think about it, the more I think that's probably the thing you build around in a sob/GK list. Still not sure it's going to win any tournaments, but it's a really cool interaction.

Doubt I'll ever play in a tournament, unless it's a TTS one haha. Only friendly / competitive crusade games online with some groups and friends. Just thought it'd be a fun theme army.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Anyone else feel like Paladins should be 4 wounds? Or is that overkill?

**wuestenfux**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else feel like Paladins should be 4 wounds? Or is that overkill?

This is pure polemic.
Four wounds would eventually mean increased pt cost.

**Audustum**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else feel like Paladins should be 4 wounds? Or is that overkill?

4 wounds and 4++, with with small points hike, would actually make them viable I think.

**Elric Greywolf**

Audustum wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else feel like Paladins should be 4 wounds? Or is that overkill?

4 wounds and 4++, with with small points hike, would actually make them viable I think.

The 4++ would be a good idea, but I'd rather have a 5+++ instead of an extra wound, specifically because of the proliferation of D2 weapons at the moment. Having an odd number of wounds lowers the efficiency of the enemy significantly. Since the damage is costed into the weapon, that essentially makes them waste points. Adding an extra wound per model for us would definitely cost more points than adding a 5+++.

If we're wish-listing, another interesting idea to differentiate Paladins would be they could cast a power once and it never expires, and the enemy could attempt to deny once per your psychic phase if they are in range.
Imagine turning on Sanctuary or Hammerhand T1, casting your second power T2, and then T3 the enemy tries to turn off one of them...and when they succeed you just turn it right back on.

**yukishiro1**

Paladins and normal termies are both just overcosted, they'd be fine if they went down a little bit in points. Paladins being able to know two powers of their choice instead of being locked into a particular one, being WS2+, and getting another attack is enough differentiation IMO. If each went down by 3-5ish points per model they'd be a real choice.

**Niiru**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Paladins and normal termies are both just overcosted, they'd be fine if they went down a little bit in points. Paladins being able to know two powers of their choice instead of being locked into a particular one, being WS2+, and getting another attack is enough differentiation IMO. If each went down by 3-5ish points per model they'd be a real choice.

Are they really that useless right now, at their current points?

**yukishiro1**

I guess that depends on the definition of "useless." They're not competitive at their current points cost. Does that make them useless? Maybe from the most cutthroat tournament point of view. Can you still win games with them? Sure. Can you still make a somewhat competitive list that includes a unit 5-man unit if you really like them? Sure, you can do that too. Can you build an entire GK terminator army right now and win tournaments with it? Almost certainly not. Does the "best" GK list have any terminators other than characters? Unlikely.

**Insularum**

Niiru wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Paladins and normal termies are both just overcosted, they'd be fine if they went down a little bit in points. Paladins being able to know two powers of their choice instead of being locked into a particular one, being WS2+, and getting another attack is enough differentiation IMO. If each went down by 3-5ish points per model they'd be a real choice.

Are they really that useless right now, at their current points?

Not so sure there is any major over costing problem on terminators, troops/obsec/psychic is enough to justify brotherhood terminators being slightly more expensive than codex space marine terminators, and paladins as they are are just fine - barebones with hammerhand they have better damage output than basic powerfist terminators for about 50 points less per unit, and are a nice cheap durable option for just deepstriking into a table quarter/objective and using armoured resilience to just survive and score.

IMO terminators only look bad when compared to how amazingly cheap strike squads are for what they bring.

**yukishiro1**

Nobody (well, except DA, and that's because of the massive buffs they get) uses those terminators either, though, suggesting basic space marine terminators are also overcosted. And the more important comparison is re: power armor models, i.e. a choice you can actually take in the same book.

Now maybe power armor GKs are too cheap, in addition to terminator being too expensive...but it works out to the same thing re: which is the more competitive choice.

**Neophyte2012**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody (well, except DA, and that's because of the massive buffs they get) uses those terminators either, though, suggesting basic space marine terminators are also overcosted. And the more important comparison is re: power armor models, i.e. a choice you can actually take in the same book.

Now maybe power armor GKs are too cheap, in addition to terminator being too expensive...but it works out to the same thing re: which is the more competitive choice.

Yes this is the case. So I guess in the next FAQ GK as a whole will have points twisted, probably with GKSS and other power armor units goes up by 5pts to 10pts, and Terminators went down maybe only 2pts to 5pts. Lol.

**Waking Dreamer**

The good thing is that all our datasheets are strong now, it's just that some points adjustments is required for internal balance.

Termies/Pallies at 39/44 points vs Strikes/Purifiers/Interceptors at 25/26/27 points makes it more fair. Ideally termies/ pallies need an extra defensive strat e.g. 1/2CP for -1 to wound against them for the phase, but since FAQs/MFM don't add strats, better hope for points adjustments - which they actually do.

**yukishiro1**

I don't think power armor GK squads are that undercosted. Maybe a point or something. If they're really undercosted by 5 points, we'll see GK performing like DE or Ad Mech, and I don't think this book is that strong.

**Waking Dreamer**

PAGK are definitely not 5+ points undercosted, but I'd also say more than 1 point undercosted. That's why I'd bump them up 2-3 points, and drop Termies by 3 points as well.

The book looks like B-tier for an average/new GK player. A-tier (tournament challenging) for a really good GK player. GK is still playing on Hard mode. that hasn't really changed. I'd never have wanted the 9E Codex to be Drukhari/Admech level. Can you imagine all the meta-chasers suddenly bandwagon and hoping into GK...? No thanks.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Waking Dreamer wrote:
PAGK are definitely not 5+ points undercosted, but I'd also say more than 1 point undercosted. That's why I'd bump them up 2-3 points, and drop Termies by 3 points as well.

The book looks like B-tier for an average/new GK player. A-tier (tournament challenging) for a really good GK player. GK is still playing on Hard mode. that hasn't really changed. I'd never have wanted the 9E Codex to be Drukhari/Admech level. Can you imagine all the meta-chasers suddenly bandwagon and hoping into GK...? No thanks.

*Has flashbacks the Ward dex of 5e and all the hilarity that resulted*

**yukishiro1**

They're certainly points efficient, possibly too much so, but it seems too early to me to make a judgement that they are that undercosted. Especially in comparison to other new releases. I don't like GW's power creep, but they are committed to it, and in the context of overall codex creep, power armor GK models don't strike me as particularly egregious.

**wuestenfux**

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't think power armor GK squads are that undercosted. Maybe a point or something. If they're really undercosted by 5 points, we'll see GK performing like DE or Ad Mech, and I don't think this book is that strong.

Every Strike thata dies at the battle field is one Strike too much, and 25 pts is a lot.
I don't think I will go with GK to a tourney, only if find an appropriate ally force.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

PA GK, especially GKSS are perfectly costed imo. For as powerful as they can be on the offense, defensively they're still T4 3+ models with no invuln that can die very easily to a crapton of things.

**wuestenfux**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
PA GK, especially GKSS are perfectly costed imo. For as powerful as they can be on the offense, defensively they're still T4 3+ models with no invuln that can die very easily to a crapton of things.

Well, this is an issue.
Every fire that comes back can kill them.
I'd opt for cheap allied units that can hold objectives and provide distraction.

**Niiru**

wuestenfux wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
PA GK, especially GKSS are perfectly costed imo. For as powerful as they can be on the offense, defensively they're still T4 3+ models with no invuln that can die very easily to a crapton of things.

Well, this is an issue.
Every fire that comes back can kill them.
I'd opt for cheap allied units that can hold objectives and provide distraction.

Such as?

Also, is there no way to give them an invuln? Does the invuln even matter? They'd have to be hit with AP2 weapons minimum to even end up with the same save as most of the 'cheaper' units that people use these days, and I'm not sure how many AP3 anti-infantry weapons are out there.

Skitarii of course being the outlier here, as they are too cheap for what they are, but you can't compare everything to the outlier and expect balance. Asking for admech to be toned down is much more sensible than demanding every other army in existence gets buffed to match. (imo)