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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can give them a warding stave, and that gives you the option of spending 1CP (2CP if 6+) for a 5++ in any phase. Kinda expensive and not that effective, and it requires taking a weapon that is not generally the best choice from a damage point of view, but it technically exists.

They're actually quite resilient if you have tide of shadows up and are getting shot from 12" or further, +1 to save and quite possibly a -1 to hit go a long ways towards keeping them alive. It's melee where they really melt, which is what makes them a trading unit.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
PA GK, especially GKSS are perfectly costed imo. For as powerful as they can be on the offense, defensively they're still T4 3+ models with no invuln that can die very easily to a crapton of things.


Pretty much this. Strikes are probably the most accurately costed power armor unit in the game at the moment (the other being the humble Battle Sister), and frankly should easily be the benchmark that others are adjusted against.
   
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






yukishiro1 wrote:
You can give them a warding stave, and that gives you the option of spending 1CP (2CP if 6+) for a 5++ in any phase. Kinda expensive and not that effective, and it requires taking a weapon that is not generally the best choice from a damage point of view, but it technically exists.

They're actually quite resilient if you have tide of shadows up and are getting shot from 12" or further, +1 to save and quite possibly a -1 to hit go a long ways towards keeping them alive. It's melee where they really melt, which is what makes them a trading unit.


Those strategems are far better utilized on Termies/Paladins as they make already strong defensive units nigh-unkillable. Using them on PA GK (except Purifiers since you need them to survive to get into melee at all costs) seems like a waste of CP.

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The value is more in the threat than the actual execution. By taking a stave, you preserve the opportunity to give yourself a 5++, which requires your opponent to commit more resources than they would otherwise if they want to be absolutely sure of killing the unit, e.g. if you have a 5-man strike squad on an objective and they absolutely have to kill all 5 because they need to take the objective off you but don't have ob-sec to do it.

You don't have to actually use it for it to be effective, and in fact, you usually don't want to. The damage loss is so marginal that I think I'll be taking one stave on all my strike squads, and on the justicar in my purgation squad, because it's not like that squad has any melee potential anyway. I probably wouldn't bother with interceptors since they don't have ob-sec and are more of a strictly trading unit, and I'm down on purifiers generally and can't really see myself taking them at all TBH.
   
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Is there a mine or something you can use that nails people with a bunch of mortal wounds for stepping on or near it?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's one of the gifts. IIRC it's only like d3 mortal wounds on a 2+ the first time a unit enters an area terrain feature you name secretly before the game, it's pretty terrible honestly.
   
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D3 mortal wounds total. Or D3 per model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What’s it specifically called?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 03:38:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Temporal Bombs. It's d3 mortal wounds total, one time only, the first time an enemy unit starts or ends a move in the nominated area terrain, which can't be in their deployment zone. As I said, it's not good.
   
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Dakka Veteran





Damn he said it was D3 mortal wounds per model. It wiped my unit out. I thought it seemed totally overpowered at the time. I’ll have to kindly inform him of that mistake.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wow. That's pretty lame. I am reading it right now and having trouble seeing how anyone could have misread it to say that, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just very bad at reading.

And I guess it shows why you should always ask to read the text yourself if something sounds weirdly powerful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 03:49:56


 
   
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It was just for fun and I know it’s a brand new codex. Not a big deal. Still won the game
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Considering I'm already playing 3 squads of Interceptors which could also want to use the strat, are Teleporters on my 3+1 Dreadknights worth it?
I could consider it on my Grand Master but i think using them on heavy weapons (or to squeeze in an additional unit) would be much more useful

And to add another question: Brotherhood Ancients.

Since the Paladin has been relegated to only buffing his buddies, what's your opinion on them? I think they can be quite useful as a buff-beacon, especially if given the Obsec Warlord trait and deep struck behind a unit of Interceptors that's ready to charge something after being deployed. We like characters since they spread more evenly the Dominus powers and give us more options for Mental Interrogation in games in which we go for that instead of purifying objectives. Giving him the "always fight first" TimeKeeper and the "a unit within 12" can intervene precognition could be quite interesting as an area control instrument to follow up our alpha-strike

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:40:45


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Zompa wrote:
Considering I'm already playing 3 squads of Interceptors which could also want to use the strat, are Teleporters on my 3+1 Dreadknights worth it?
I could consider it on my Grand Master but i think using them on heavy weapons (or to squeeze in an additional unit) would be much more useful

And to add another question: Brotherhood Ancients.

Since the Paladin has been relegated to only buffing his buddies, what's your opinion on them? I think they can be quite useful as a buff-beacon, especially if given the Obsec Warlord trait and deep struck behind a unit of Interceptors that's ready to charge something after being deployed. We like characters since they spread more evenly the Dominus powers and give us more options for Mental Interrogation in games in which we go for that instead of purifying objectives. Giving him the "always fight first" TimeKeeper and the "a unit within 12" can intervene precognition could be quite interesting as an area control instrument to follow up our alpha-strike


You can go without it but don't forget the teleporter keyword also let's them fall back and shoot/charge with a strat
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Zompa wrote:
Considering I'm already playing 3 squads of Interceptors which could also want to use the strat, are Teleporters on my 3+1 Dreadknights worth it?
I could consider it on my Grand Master but i think using them on heavy weapons (or to squeeze in an additional unit) would be much more useful


As stated the wargear opens up a tooooon of flexibility. For an army that doesnt have much on the board, not being pinned down is a major asset. Worth it every time IMO.

Zompa wrote:

And to add another question: Brotherhood Ancients.


It's...intriguing. The force multiplication is obviously massive (albeit suffering from the usual delivery issues that most melee auras do, but that's 40k for ya), and there's some very interesting play in the relic Banner (admittedly requiring a CP and an FAQ). The issue is that GK are super hard up on character slots already, and I don't know that what it brings to the table is enough to justify the opportunity costs. I definitely plan to use one, but I'm not entirely certain how well it'll do. Needs additional data.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's hard for me to imagine a situation where I'd want a brotherhood ancient over just taking another strike squad. This army seems set up to trade so hard that I don't see how you really leverage the ancient without throwing him away, and it's not worth it unless you can get that buff for several turns, even before considering the relic banner.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 16:24:18


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






So it looks like swords are the way to go with GKSS, but I'm wondering if for Termies and especially Paladins, falchions might be better. If I equip Falchions and use Tide of Convergence, that is a LOT of chances for me to inflict some MWs, especially on Paladins with their 5 attacks each...

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Paladins are way too expensive to be using as a mortal wound roulette.

Falchions are a decent pick on strikes if you want to take them in Rapiers and combo it with a chaplain to fish for double MWs on 6s to wound rerolling, otherwise they're pretty outclassed by swords or halberds. Losing a point of S, a point of AP, AND a point of damage in return for going from 3 to 4 attacks is just not a very good trade. If they kept the S+1 -3AP statline of the swords but just went to 1D instead of 2 in return for the extra attack, that'd be more of a real choice.
   
Made in gb
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker




March

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine a situation where I'd want a brotherhood ancient over just taking another strike squad. This army seems set up to trade so hard that I don't see how you really leverage the ancient without throwing him away, and it's not worth it unless you can get that buff for several turns, even before considering the relic banner.


I'm running Prescient Brotherhood. So will be using this guy to be my warp changing guy and when he isn't changing my tides he will be gaingin me +1cp a turn hopefully.

In a pinch he can also cleanse an objective, I think he helps me gain additional Dominus powers without having to spend too many CP's getting another detachment. So few HQ slot's it's frustrating.

Veritas Vos Liberabit 
   
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I might take an apothecary in that role rather than an ancient, just because his aura gives you more if he's sitting back doing other stuff. But I can see the ancient there too.

I am currently just biting the bullet and paying the 2CP for another patrol. Wardmakers is really good for that, you can take a 5-man strike squad and a librarian who can then switch out powers as needed if necessary with the brotherhood strat, which gives you a lot of flexibility. I think it's worth the 2CP personally. Draigo can slot in there too if you want to save space in the main detachment for stuff that gets the detachment bonus, though 4 characters seem like the sweet spot for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/24 16:52:45


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





jay170788 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine a situation where I'd want a brotherhood ancient over just taking another strike squad. This army seems set up to trade so hard that I don't see how you really leverage the ancient without throwing him away, and it's not worth it unless you can get that buff for several turns, even before considering the relic banner.


I'm running Prescient Brotherhood. So will be using this guy to be my warp changing guy and when he isn't changing my tides he will be gaingin me +1cp a turn hopefully.

In a pinch he can also cleanse an objective, I think he helps me gain additional Dominus powers without having to spend too many CP's getting another detachment. So few HQ slot's it's frustrating.

This is how I played my first game.
The +1 CP was very helpful but just as you mentioned - you are likely giving up the warpshaping power to do this + a psychic power per turn. Next game I am going rapiers and taking warp shaping instead plus taking 2 warlord traits instead of 3. So it nets me +1 CP to start the game and will give me another power to cast a turn. It will be very nice to start in the tide of shadows.

2 detachments is pretty much mandatory if you want to take crowe or a chaplain - which imo are more than worth starting 2 CP down to include.
   
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Managed to snag 2 Dreadknights at a decent price and wondering how to equip them when they arrive. One is gonna be a Grand Master, of course, and in that case I'm wondering if for melee the hammer would be the best choice for him since with his aura it more or less becomes a 2+ WS again. Regular DK should be sword I think since with Hammerhand it can pretty much melt anything.

As for ranged weapons, I'm torn on whether to give them one or two. Heavy Psycannon feels like a must because there just aren't many other units in a GK army that pumps out that kind of heavy damage. But then the Heavy Incinerator is also great for softening up whatever I'm going to charge while also not affected by the degrading BS when they take damage. Really want to take both guns, but that is a lot of points...

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
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The aura doesn't effect himself. The sword is pretty much always the best pick because of the sweep option, it helps with getting tarpitted with cheap junk, which is otherwise a problem.

If you're loading up a grandmaster with the 3++ invlun, sigil that lets you teleport upon being shot, etc you may as well max out the weapons too.

I don't think normal dreadknights are very good honestly, but if you are going to take them, I'm not sure it's worth buying two heavy weapons, I'd probably take them just with the cannon and sword.
   
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura doesn't effect himself. The sword is pretty much always the best pick because of the sweep option, it helps with getting tarpitted with cheap junk, which is otherwise a problem.

If you're loading up a grandmaster with the 3++ invlun, sigil that lets you teleport upon being shot, etc you may as well max out the weapons too.

I don't think normal dreadknights are very good honestly, but if you are going to take them, I'm not sure it's worth buying two heavy weapons, I'd probably take them just with the cannon and sword.

I've been running my GMDK and three NDKs in a Swordbearers Spearhead detachment. I load them all identically, with the sword, psycannon and psilencer. If you can land the brotherhood power (Empyric Lodestone, +1 to wound at range for Swordbearer vehicles), and the Dominus power Empyric Amplification (+1D on psi and nemesis weapons), You're wounding T8 on 3+/4+ for the psycannon/psilencer, with the
.

I played a couple games in person over the weekend, and was able to nuke a dangerous unit immediately if I went first. With rerolls on the NDK (from Draigo or the GMDK) the GMDK and one NDK can usually take a Knight down, even if it rotates ion shield. If I wasn't running them as Swordbearers, I might not bring the weapons, but stuff just dies with that brotherhood power on it.

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Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura doesn't effect himself. The sword is pretty much always the best pick because of the sweep option, it helps with getting tarpitted with cheap junk, which is otherwise a problem.

If you're loading up a grandmaster with the 3++ invlun, sigil that lets you teleport upon being shot, etc you may as well max out the weapons too.

I don't think normal dreadknights are very good honestly, but if you are going to take them, I'm not sure it's worth buying two heavy weapons, I'd probably take them just with the cannon and sword.
In the hammer's defence, without any buffs being applied to the GMDK it is better than either sword profile against anything tougher than a generic marine (3W marines, -1D defenses etc), it combo's well with augurium scrolls and is a powerful anti tank option in an army without many alternatives. If you are worried about tarpits all of your guns and smite can be fired into combat (or gate away).

The sweeping profile on the sword however is great against everything if you invest in hammer of righteousness and can cast empyric amplification reliably.
   
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 undertow wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura doesn't effect himself. The sword is pretty much always the best pick because of the sweep option, it helps with getting tarpitted with cheap junk, which is otherwise a problem.

If you're loading up a grandmaster with the 3++ invlun, sigil that lets you teleport upon being shot, etc you may as well max out the weapons too.

I don't think normal dreadknights are very good honestly, but if you are going to take them, I'm not sure it's worth buying two heavy weapons, I'd probably take them just with the cannon and sword.

I've been running my GMDK and three NDKs in a Swordbearers Spearhead detachment. I load them all identically, with the sword, psycannon and psilencer. If you can land the brotherhood power (Empyric Lodestone, +1 to wound at range for Swordbearer vehicles), and the Dominus power Empyric Amplification (+1D on psi and nemesis weapons), You're wounding T8 on 3+/4+ for the psycannon/psilencer, with the
.

I played a couple games in person over the weekend, and was able to nuke a dangerous unit immediately if I went first. With rerolls on the NDK (from Draigo or the GMDK) the GMDK and one NDK can usually take a Knight down, even if it rotates ion shield. If I wasn't running them as Swordbearers, I might not bring the weapons, but stuff just dies with that brotherhood power on it.


My problem with that is that it's super short range (12" to get all the debuffs), and yes, you'll blow up a single unit real good...but then what? You have ~550 points of stuff sitting out there to get destroyed. If you're fighting knights maybe that's a good trade, but against the MSU that is dominating the game right now, that's going to be a trade your opponent bites your hand off to take.

I don't think it's terrible or anything, but it doesn't address the basic problem with the dreadknights, which is how quickly they evaporate as soon as something targets them if they don't have the 3++ and the option to teleport away from shooting. They're expensive, short-ranged glass cannons and I'm not sure there's a lot of room for that in the game right now. Not having the -1D just hurts them so much IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 17:34:18


 
   
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Been Around the Block





yukishiro1 wrote:
 undertow wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura doesn't effect himself. The sword is pretty much always the best pick because of the sweep option, it helps with getting tarpitted with cheap junk, which is otherwise a problem.

If you're loading up a grandmaster with the 3++ invlun, sigil that lets you teleport upon being shot, etc you may as well max out the weapons too.

I don't think normal dreadknights are very good honestly, but if you are going to take them, I'm not sure it's worth buying two heavy weapons, I'd probably take them just with the cannon and sword.

I've been running my GMDK and three NDKs in a Swordbearers Spearhead detachment. I load them all identically, with the sword, psycannon and psilencer. If you can land the brotherhood power (Empyric Lodestone, +1 to wound at range for Swordbearer vehicles), and the Dominus power Empyric Amplification (+1D on psi and nemesis weapons), You're wounding T8 on 3+/4+ for the psycannon/psilencer, with the
.

I played a couple games in person over the weekend, and was able to nuke a dangerous unit immediately if I went first. With rerolls on the NDK (from Draigo or the GMDK) the GMDK and one NDK can usually take a Knight down, even if it rotates ion shield. If I wasn't running them as Swordbearers, I might not bring the weapons, but stuff just dies with that brotherhood power on it.


My problem with that is that it's super short range (12" to get all the debuffs), and yes, you'll blow up a single unit real good...but then what? You have ~550 points of stuff sitting out there to get destroyed. If you're fighting knights maybe that's a good trade, but against the MSU that is dominating the game right now, that's going to be a trade your opponent bites your hand off to take.

I don't think it's terrible or anything, but it doesn't address the basic problem with the dreadknights, which is how quickly they evaporate as soon as something targets them if they don't have the 3++ and the option to teleport away from shooting.

It's also not needed. Most the time you want to charge a unit at 12" so debuffing to shoot it doesn't make sense. It looks better on paper then it will untimately be.

Empyric amplification and psyshock ammo (whatever the +1 str and ap stratagem is) plus some form of rerolls is pretty powerfull in it's own right. Persistent brethern have reroll 1's to hit and wound stratagem as well. I used that to great effect in my first game.

I think the only thing interesting about swordbearers is their warlord trait for a 4++ to a vehical - plus those buffs really help a landraiders shooting too. Can give that to a rhino or storm raven or landraider and still have a sanctuary on your big 10 man strike. It's also a hassle because that brotherhood offers nothing for your infantry so it kinda forces you into a double brotherhood situation which is not only tedious but needlessly complicated. Something like Rapiers of persistent brethren is very simple and effective.
   
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USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
My problem with that is that it's super short range (12" to get all the debuffs)

You can extend that range by 6" for 1CP. I'll put my GMDK with the Sigil of Exigence within that range to get the two casts off, then port him if he's shot at. The other NDKs can shoot from 30" away in Convergance.

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While the Gattling Psycannon might be good on the GMGK, for the regular GK, I think the Heavy incinerator would be better if only because it autohits so you don't have to worry about the degrading BS.

Though if forced to only take one gun, I'd still take the Heavy Psycannon over either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/27 04:04:57


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Longtime Dakkanaut




Incinerators are unfortunately pretty much junk on dreadknights, because they aren't psi weapons, and therefore don't get the bonuses from either the power or the strat.

I mean, they're not great period TBH. But if they have a place, it's not on a model that really wants to have the option to benefit from the strat and the power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/27 04:24:07


 
   
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Beaverton OR


Hey folks,

With the new dex, what do you guys think of all or mostly dreadnought/dreadknight lists?

My group pretty much exclusively does 1k-1.5k points and I was thinking that at that level there is a lot to like about a dread heavy list:

1) high toughness / no "soft" targets

2) Get to be a threat in every phase (plus: shooting in CC)

3) Still lots of smite-spam / psyker shenanigans.

What do you think?
   
 
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