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3d printing custom models in 40K is OK?
Print me up Scotty!
Not now, not ever - GW originals, all night, all day!

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I'm all for 3d printing. I'm a few weeks away from getting my own, currently we have fellow club members printing for those who ask.
I'm also ken on kickstarters, and it seems that about 75% of all wargaming related kickstarters are now files for 3d printing.
And whilst I'm a fan of GW and don't want to see them go under, I strongly believe this will have an impact on them and how they operate, although that impact/change may not be seen for a few years.

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Blackie wrote:
What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.


Tons of content can be found for free, and content that is paid is almost always cheap compared to what actual minis do.

My friends and I bought six packs of 3D models with which to print out a whole army of modern Elysians and it cost us less than a single 10-pack of FW Elysians would have (even if they weren't OOP).

The vast, overwhelming majority of 3D printer users are not making their own models.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a number of friends with 3D printers. One took quite a few prints to get it right. One made a mistake on his first print and hasn't made a mistake since. He even has two printers now. I don't know how to work one, but I figure anyone who's going to buy one isn't doing so casually and will actually put effort into the use of said machine both before and after purchasing it.

My point is that "it's difficult to learn!" isn't really an argument against such things, just an attempt to shut down the idea of having one. Speaking of which...

Nowhere have I tried to shut down the idea of getting one, it's a discussion and I am allowed, indeed I am supposed to, give my opinion. My opinion is informed by what people have said and what I have seen. The only people who seem intent on shutting down the discussion are the pro-3d printing side because every time I dare suggest that people should be cautious and not just listen to the pro side of the discussion, I get called a shill or it is heavily implied that I am stupid. My opinion has never just been "waaaah it's too hard" and if you'd actually read anything I'd written you'd see that.
Good for your friend that they got a handle on 3d printing, I hope they get joy out of it.

I have no personal issue with you, but what I haven't noticed over several recent threads in this sub-forum is that you tend to be the "Nope. Can't do that.", "Nope. I don't think that would ever work." or "Nope. Too hard. We shouldn't even try!" guy. So I come into this thread and, to my utter shock, here you are, poo-poo'ing the idea of 3D printing. I especially liked the "toxic resin" angle. That was a hoot!

Could've fooled me considering nobody else seems to be getting "named and shamed" as it was. And great job on being extremely reductive of my points which in no way makes it seem like you have a personal dislike of me and my opinions, no siree. As for the "toxic resin", I didn't actually say anything about it being toxic, I said comparing the ability to use a smartphone (a very intuitive and consumer-friendly piece of equipment) to a 3d printer was a bad comparison.
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Stuff like this:
 jeff white wrote:
My answer would be because I can. I imagine that, as this tech becomes more common, many people will answer the same. GW will kill itself by forcing YouTube videos off the site if they use non gw models to play gw games during batreps. That is when the community will mutiny straight up. The grim dark is ours, always was. GW will learn that lesson too quickly if that is their chosen road.

The bit about YT is nonsense and has no basis in reality but to satisfy the anti-GW pro-3d printing side of the discussion it gets included. The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have. All you're doing is entrenching a toxic and aggressive position that anything new is bad which does nothing but actively drive people away from the hobby you all proclaim to love. The final part is a thinly veiled threat, which is just pathetic and disgusting. Get a grip for god's sake.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 13:52:58


 
   
Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





I'm fine 3D printing things that GW doesn't make anymore (ex: Greater Knarlocs / Knarloc Riders) but if it's something that you can still buy, I'll pay GW for them because as gakky as they can be sometimes, I still feel like I should support the game I love.

So in saying that, I wish there was a middle ground vote of sometimes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 22:05:21


15000 4000 3500 2500 :tyranid: 2500 1000 1000
1000 1000 1000 1000  
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a number of friends with 3D printers. One took quite a few prints to get it right. One made a mistake on his first print and hasn't made a mistake since. He even has two printers now. I don't know how to work one, but I figure anyone who's going to buy one isn't doing so casually and will actually put effort into the use of said machine both before and after purchasing it.

My point is that "it's difficult to learn!" isn't really an argument against such things, just an attempt to shut down the idea of having one. Speaking of which...

Nowhere have I tried to shut down the idea of getting one, it's a discussion and I am allowed, indeed I am supposed to, give my opinion. My opinion is informed by what people have said and what I have seen. The only people who seem intent on shutting down the discussion are the pro-3d printing side because every time I dare suggest that people should be cautious and not just listen to the pro side of the discussion, I get called a shill or it is heavily implied that I am stupid. My opinion has never just been "waaaah it's too hard" and if you'd actually read anything I'd written you'd see that.
Good for your friend that they got a handle on 3d printing, I hope they get joy out of it.

I have no personal issue with you, but what I haven't noticed over several recent threads in this sub-forum is that you tend to be the "Nope. Can't do that.", "Nope. I don't think that would ever work." or "Nope. Too hard. We shouldn't even try!" guy. So I come into this thread and, to my utter shock, here you are, poo-poo'ing the idea of 3D printing. I especially liked the "toxic resin" angle. That was a hoot!

Could've fooled me considering nobody else seems to be getting "named and shamed" as it was. And great job on being extremely reductive of my points which in no way makes it seem like you have a personal dislike of me and my opinions, no siree. As for the "toxic resin", I didn't actually say anything about it being toxic, I said comparing the ability to use a smartphone (a very intuitive and consumer-friendly piece of equipment) to a 3d printer was a bad comparison.
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Stuff like this:
 jeff white wrote:
My answer would be because I can. I imagine that, as this tech becomes more common, many people will answer the same. GW will kill itself by forcing YouTube videos off the site if they use non gw models to play gw games during batreps. That is when the community will mutiny straight up. The grim dark is ours, always was. GW will learn that lesson too quickly if that is their chosen road.

The bit about YT is nonsense and has no basis in reality but to satisfy the anti-GW pro-3d printing side of the discussion it gets included. The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.
All you're doing is entrenching a toxic and aggressive position that anything new is bad which does nothing but actively drive people away from the hobby you all proclaim to love. The final part is a thinly veiled threat, which is just pathetic and disgusting. Get a grip for god's sake.

Sorry that you feel that way. I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment …

I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that.

Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick…

I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact.

We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm. Chill.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 06:25:34


   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





jeff white wrote:Sorry that you feel that way. I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm. Chill.
That's a lot of words, and I still have no idea what most of that comment has *anything* to do with your own thread premise. And I do seriously advise you actually learn what "fascist" means, instead of "thing I don't like", as well as maybe reflecting on the tone of this whole appeal to "the Old Guard" mentality.


Perhaps you ought to pay attention to the last word of your comment instead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.
By that, they are referring to this idea of audience ownership, and how the audience are apparently the "True" inheritors of the fandom, as if a single version ever existed.

40k can exist without GW, but this whole "We, The People, Own The GrimDark" is just posturing.

People can do what they like with 40k already, though I do still frown on carbon-copying from *any* creator, big or small.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 22:03:39



They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


You are correct, but none of us would be able to do that if GW hadn't created the IP back in '87.

When I saw Jeff's original post, I wanted to break it like this:

"The Grim Dark is ours" - True
"And always was" False, because none of us invented it, and because 40k's first decade was pre-internet (or to be accurate, accessible, mainstream internet).

You can praise one page rules; it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.
You can praise prohammer- it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.

To pretend that any of the Wannabe-Hammer 3d modellers would exist if GW hadn't invented the game is also false- W. Artel would not exist in the timeline where Rogue Trader never happened, and Raging Heroes and Wargames Exclusive wouldn't exist either. And it isn't even just Rogue Trader; DE weren't invented until 3rd, and both Artel and Raging Heroes have extensive DE knock-offs. T'au came along after that, and WGE is knocking them off too. Had GW not done it first, none of this would have existed.

Note: This isn't condemning one page rules, or prohammer, or W Artel- I like'em all, and I'm glad they exist because a greater number of people get to be happy. This is also not saying these things wouldn't limp along for another 5-10 years if GW goes under- you're right, they would. But a decade would be about it, because without a huge mainstream foot print to attract thousands of new players every year, any of these stop gaps, no matter how awesome they are, are on limited time.

If GW survives on the other hand, the game will exist indefinitely. You may hate corporate policies- I do too actually- but there's no denying that the huge corporate footprint has kept the game alive for three decades, and the games survival for the next 3, 5, 10 decades will require that footprint as well, though as I said, you're right it would limp on in several fragmented versions of what we have now, while eager hipsters struggle to come up with this rules set or that 3d print, as others push a different rules set and different 3d prints.

You all may be too-cool-for-school enough that you think it's edgy and hip to search the internet for disparate threads that you can stitch together to create some semblance of a game, and you might even be popular enough to pimp it out to enough people to create some semblance of community. Good bye tournaments- as much as you may like Prohammer (and again, nothing against prohammer- I do genuinely and sincerely applaud your dedication and accomplishments), how many prohammer tournaments have you been too? One page rule tournaments?

(Cue the crickets)

Yeah, that's what I thought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 22:56:40


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Gert wrote:
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Are we reading the same thread? Plenty of people have gone into detail explaining what they mean without being "reductive", and you're acting as if they're coming after you personally.

Who's being elitist now?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 jeff white wrote:

Sorry that you feel that way.
Spoiler:
I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm.
Chill.


Good Lord, haven't you heard of these things called paragraphs???
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Speaking of -- I lost my magentized heldrake head. Anyone able to PM me someone that might be able to print one or some facsimile?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 01:13:58


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


in fairness before internet browsers where a thing the internet wasn't the easiest to use
I have this wild memory of going over to a friends house, and him explaining to me that his dads computer was connected to other computers somewhere. I remember watching him enter some commands, and over some number of minutes we got back an image or graphic of some kind. I was friends with this kid in 2nd grade, and I want to say that was in 1986.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Kids learn dinosaur names that their parents can't even begin to pronounce. Kids will learn what they put their minds towards.
Pachycephalasaurus.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

My nephew who you can understand about every 5th work of, can say Pachycephalasaurus perfectly.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Racerguy180 wrote:
My nephew who you can understand about every 5th work of, can say Pachycephalasaurus perfectly.
A kid after my own heart, that's so fuggin great!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

ccs wrote:
 jeff white wrote:

Sorry that you feel that way.
Spoiler:
I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm.
Chill.


Good Lord, haven't you heard of these things called paragraphs???

Fify


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


You are correct, but none of us would be able to do that if GW hadn't created the IP back in '87.
Spoiler:

When I saw Jeff's original post, I wanted to break it like this:

"The Grim Dark is ours" - True
"And always was" False, because none of us invented it, and because 40k's first decade was pre-internet (or to be accurate, accessible, mainstream internet).

You can praise one page rules; it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.
You can praise prohammer- it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.

To pretend that any of the Wannabe-Hammer 3d modellers would exist if GW hadn't invented the game is also false- W. Artel would not exist in the timeline where Rogue Trader never happened, and Raging Heroes and Wargames Exclusive wouldn't exist either. And it isn't even just Rogue Trader; DE weren't invented until 3rd, and both Artel and Raging Heroes have extensive DE knock-offs. T'au came along after that, and WGE is knocking them off too. Had GW not done it first, none of this would have existed.

Note: This isn't condemning one page rules, or prohammer, or W Artel- I like'em all, and I'm glad they exist because a greater number of people get to be happy. This is also not saying these things wouldn't limp along for another 5-10 years if GW goes under- you're right, they would. But a decade would be about it, because without a huge mainstream foot print to attract thousands of new players every year, any of these stop gaps, no matter how awesome they are, are on limited time.

If GW survives on the other hand, the game will exist indefinitely. You may hate corporate policies- I do too actually- but there's no denying that the huge corporate footprint has kept the game alive for three decades, and the games survival for the next 3, 5, 10 decades will require that footprint as well, though as I said, you're right it would limp on in several fragmented versions of what we have now, while eager hipsters struggle to come up with this rules set or that 3d print, as others push a different rules set and different 3d prints.

You all may be too-cool-for-school enough that you think it's edgy and hip to search the internet for disparate threads that you can stitch together to create some semblance of a game, and you might even be popular enough to pimp it out to enough people to create some semblance of community. Good bye tournaments- as much as you may like Prohammer (and again, nothing against prohammer- I do genuinely and sincerely applaud your dedication and accomplishments), how many prohammer tournaments have you been too? One page rule tournaments?

(Cue the crickets)

Yeah, that's what I thought.



40k got popular by lumping every trope from Middle earth to Mars into a single clearinghouse for people, who had so many dungeons and dragons typically citadel or ral partha minis that they didn’t know what else to do with them, into a single skirmish or in wfb rank and file classic wargame.

Their efforts succeeded because our imaginations could support the efforts. If they hadn’t done it, someone else would have, and there were at the time alternatives. In such a case something else would have caught the wave of enthusiasm in the demographic, and we would here and now be bickering over something else, 2020AD or some other system whose og creative talent also likely jumped ship as their management took after the greed is good mentality that has ruined every other industry on Earth since as well.

Gw is not special. 40k is what evolutionary theorists may call a frozen accident. What is irreplaceable is the collective imagination of the community that makes their success possible. See, first, to survive, there must be a niche for an organism to adapt into. That is our minds. Then it can work at transforming that niche. So, we see gw doing that with their yt takedowns and so on… simple science.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 17:56:22


   
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UK

I mainly don't have a resin printer because I don't play GW games. If I did, £700 for a 40k army vs £70 of resin would be no contest.

With other manufacturers out there who stick to around £1 a mini as their price point, suddenly the savings from printing aren't worth the time/space/hassle of a resin printer, especially when I only have the time to paint 200 or so minis max in a typical year.

Terrain, though, that's another matter, I have an FDM printer and it can make me a whole new wargames board every month for the cost of a few rolls of PLA.

I do buy resin prints from commercial printers (on etsy) etc. sometimes, and that's fine.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 11:48:41


 
   
Made in us
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 Blackie wrote:
I'd definitely play against a full 3D printed army, as long as it's reasonably WYSIWYG.

I'm not interested in purchasing any 3D printed models though as I never, ever, saw a single 3D printed miniature that was better than its GW counterpart. At least for those armies I do own or would like to own. And I can't mix them with already existing collections because the design is typically different.

About terrain I'm way more open to get third party alternatives, and in fact I did get a lot of non GW stuff. 3D printed terrain is easily on par with GW stuff if not better.


Sometimes it's less about the visual fidelity if you hold it .001" from your nose and squint to try and see the print lines and more about GW just sometimes makes dumb, silly decisions with the design and proportionality of their minis and they just don't look good. Also, some stuff gets pretty old like:

-many gw kits effectively looking like 5 clones of the same exact guy
-GW's high degree of hero scaling making some kits especially of models that are supposed to look lithe/fast look clunky and clumsy like Wreck-it Ralph with huge hands and heads
-GW's love of loads and piles of greeble on every figure
-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


the cost of a 3d printer at this point is pretty analogous to the cost of any given video game system. Probably cheaper tbh. Somehow, lots of teens have access to video game systems, though I dont think 3d printing is a good hobby for teens - they're bad at using PPE.

....though I guess everyone has had a lot of practice with PPE protocol now hahah.
[Thumb - 99120116009_AdMechFulguriteElectroPriests01.jpg]

[Thumb - IMG_0923.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 14:30:40


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


in fairness before internet browsers where a thing the internet wasn't the easiest to use
I have this wild memory of going over to a friends house, and him explaining to me that his dads computer was connected to other computers somewhere. I remember watching him enter some commands, and over some number of minutes we got back an image or graphic of some kind. I was friends with this kid in 2nd grade, and I want to say that was in 1986.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Kids learn dinosaur names that their parents can't even begin to pronounce. Kids will learn what they put their minds towards.
Pachycephalasaurus.
Hail, the most Weegie of dinosaurs!
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






I really like 3d printing for Terrain and bits, Not not at all a fan of folks blatantly copying existing GW or FW kits.

I also have not found a 3rd party clone of a GW or FW kit where I find the copy is superior to the original, but that comes from personal taste.

I do really like the 3D printed Battlemechs based off the Mechwarrior Online mechs.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
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Italy

 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.


Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






 Sim-Life wrote:

Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


No model of one.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.

yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...

as for the marines and chaos marines, these were supposed to represent forces organized according to the diktats of a patriarchy. there is no mixed gender in such an ideology. and the composition of a space marine army should reflect that. the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

now with everyone competitively concerned with "balance" and not offending social wannabe norms, there seems to be this idea that every race should be all things for all people in all situations, and the sorts of distinctions that made eldar guardian unit compositions an exception to the partiarchal Imperial rule are less easily communicated.

i have some old ork females too! cheerleaders stolen from BB as part of my old WHFB ork army, collecting dust somewhere haf a world away in some closet of some family memeber (I hope...)....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/29 14:24:25


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Sim-Life wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.


Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


Sure, and there was a limited edition 80$ female catachan guard sergeant, and in the lore from some obscure book somewhere there was a techpriest who gets referred to as 'she' i'm sure, and every video game ever has a female farseer, it's always the farseer despite that somehow just never being the model for a farseer AFAIK...doesnt really change the fact that GW has basically always released every faction as 95% identical dudes built like refrigerators unless it's 'designated female army' or some kind of elf, or 'designated sexy army/sexy unit'.

To be clear here im not accusing anyone of actively being sexist, this is clearly just a passive/laziness thing. Eh, we dont wanna design two kinds of armor, so all chaos warriors besides one or two characters are gonna be dudes. Eh, we want this unit to be shirtless so all drukhari are mixed-gender except for the haemonculus covens which are gonna be all dudes for no reason. Eh, space marines are all dudes and we are basically creating this army to sell to people who keep buying in to the Space Marines But Space Marineier, so all custodes are gonna be dudes too. Eh this army is gonna be weird aliens/weird fantasy critters so...they just all look the same, and all the characters are just dudes, preferably basically identical dudes.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

I mean, is it really some great tragedy that there is no glass ceiling in the Imperium? They're xenophobic, not racist, sexist, or misogynistic.

"Patriarchal Imperial Rule". There have been matriarchs in the entire history of the Imperium going as far back as the Great Crusade... and that didn't stop after the Horus Heresy.

More models of women! Commisars, guardswomen, genestealers, let's gooooo!
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 jeff white wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.

yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...

as for the marines and chaos marines, these were supposed to represent forces organized according to the diktats of a patriarchy. there is no mixed gender in such an ideology. and the composition of a space marine army should reflect that. the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

now with everyone competitively concerned with "balance" and not offending social wannabe norms, there seems to be this idea that every race should be all things for all people in all situations, and the sorts of distinctions that made eldar guardian unit compositions an exception to the partiarchal Imperial rule are less easily communicated.

i have some old ork females too! cheerleaders stolen from BB as part of my old WHFB ork army, collecting dust somewhere haf a world away in some closet of some family memeber (I hope...)....


....except that the Imperium is in no way portrayed to be a patriarchy save for the fact that the emperor and primarchs were all male. it's not really a new "woke" thing to create a fantasy/scifi universe and just wave your hand and say 'and sexism and racism and stuff that we care about today is not a thing in this universe because we have orks and goblins and demons and magic and gods and all the stuff that creates that stuff in our world doesnt really apply.' People have been doing that for decades, because it's easy, and its a way to stay out of politics.

And that is exactly how the imperium is generally portrayed outside of the space marines, which are all male for in-universe space science reasons and offset by the writers with the sisters of battle, who are all-female for similar in-universe space politics reasons.

Otherwise, the guard, the inquisiton, the high lords, the laboring classes - there's nothing in-fiction that actually establishes that anyone is anything except human-supremacist. And it makes sense that they wouldn't be, if you've got bug-eyed betentacled aliens and giant green fungus hooligans to worry about, you're going to care that some other human is a slightly different shade a whole lot less (we know that 4th gen genestealer cultists can successfully blend in no problem while being slightly purple and having star trek forehead-ridgies) and in a universe where youve got high-grav worlds turning people into literal 10ft tall ogres and zero-grav spacers growing up with twig bones the physical differences between the sexes are going to be a whole lot less critical - a woman from a Death World or high-grav world is gonna be able to snap a man from a low-grav world in half.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





jeff white wrote:yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...
Why was the same not applied to Guardsmen?

the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...
Having women isn't "being woke". That's just reality. Just want to make that clear.

the_scotsman wrote:To be clear here im not accusing anyone of actively being sexist, this is clearly just a passive/laziness thing. Eh, we dont wanna design two kinds of armor, so all chaos warriors besides one or two characters are gonna be dudes. Eh, we want this unit to be shirtless so all drukhari are mixed-gender except for the haemonculus covens which are gonna be all dudes for no reason. Eh, space marines are all dudes and we are basically creating this army to sell to people who keep buying in to the Space Marines But Space Marineier, so all custodes are gonna be dudes too. Eh this army is gonna be weird aliens/weird fantasy critters so...they just all look the same, and all the characters are just dudes, preferably basically identical dudes.
Exactly so - it's just a case of "we can't be bothered to include the other 50% of people", and now that passiveness/laziness is a little bit frowned on. Probably not a great grand conspiracy, like you say, but it doesn't make it okay.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
....except that the Imperium is in no way portrayed to be a patriarchy save for the fact that the emperor and primarchs were all male. it's not really a new "woke" thing to create a fantasy/scifi universe and just wave your hand and say 'and sexism and racism and stuff that we care about today is not a thing in this universe because we have orks and goblins and demons and magic and gods and all the stuff that creates that stuff in our world doesnt really apply.' People have been doing that for decades, because it's easy, and its a way to stay out of politics.
And this as well - the Imperium isn't patriarchal, save for having a male-presenting skeleton they worship, who has absolutely no practical power in governing. Governance is either handled on a local level, with local leaders of all genders, or from the HLOT, who are also a mixed gender organisation. There isn't really a sign of overarching sexism or patriarchal dominance within the Imperium - if we take jeff's implication that including women in prominent positions is "woke", then the Imperium is "woke".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 14:44:03



They/them

 
   
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its like when people complained about the one novel where techpriests all just referred to each other as "ve" instead of 'he' or 'she'.

it's not "woke" it's basic speculative fiction. The author thought for like five seconds about a society where for thousands of years, people view flesh as bad, machinery as the ideal, wear robes over any shameful fleshy bits that might be showing, and technologically transmogrify themselves as much as possible into weird spider/robot/tractor hybrids and thought to themselves "hm, you know something, in this theoretical society you probably wouldn't be able to tell by looking and it'd probably be pretty impolite to ask what's going on with the fleshy parts under all those robes. Referring to yourself as either "he" or "she" would be conveying shameful information about the state of your weak human past."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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