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 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

Plague Marines still don't work because of the fething garbage "build only what's in the kit" unit entry. They could be 10 points per model and I still won't use them on that principle.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical. Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Actually PM are NOT just rank and file, they are like most cultmarines something in between an elite unit and a file unit.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

Plague Marines still don't work because of the fething garbage "build only what's in the kit" unit entry. They could be 10 points per model and I still won't use them on that principle.

The fact that you don't like how their wargear is handled doesn't mean they don't work.

Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

From the armies/units I play I can make an example, SW wolf guards. They can have a plethora of combinations and they can be either good/viable or absolute trash. Unlike plague marines their best build is not available out the box, kitbashing is required. But no one says they don't work or there's a problem with them or their kit. TWC were either OP or mediocre in 7th depending on their gear. Etc...

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.


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 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

Have you tried magnetizing Plague Marines? Even if what you say is true, it doesn't apply to the units that GW have done this to. PM used to have a melee-centric build as well as a shooting-centric build, for example. The same applied to CSM Chosen and Terminators before this idiotic policy.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

And this is something to be happy about or aspire to?

Stop accepting mediocrity from these cock suckers lmfao.

And there's a difference between "The sword is better than the hammer on NDKs right now" and "this gun that is just a straight upgrade over the base bolter now costs nothing meaning there is literally no reason to ever take the bolter".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

Then people would take min sized barebone cheap obsec action doers.

"Sepsis cohorts number around seven hundred Plague Marines"

"The mainstay of Death Guard vectoriums, Plague Marines excel in short-ranged firefights and relentless assaults that grind the enemy down"

Sounds like rank and file dorks to me.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout... SW wolf guards. They can have a plethora of combinations and they can be either good/viable or absolute trash.

That's not a good thing and should apply to as few units as possible.

tneva82 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

Then people would take min sized barebone cheap obsec action doers.

Would they? I'm not convinced. Assuming we kept PM at their current cost, there exists a cost for each upgrade that makes it desirable while still making it an option rather than de facto compulsory. That cost is likely somewhere between the old cost and 0. Discovering a suitable cost is what playtesting is for.

Sadly GW's stupid "no model no rules" policy means things like having one unit entry allowing for multiple approaches doesn't work now. There's no more option to take melee PM, or even to specialise with dual Blight Launcher. Allowing those kind of options back in would also help diversify the unit role and create less of a no-brainer choice.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical.

Not a radical, just missing the point. People also never ran barebones devastator squads or havocs(when it was still possible) and expected them to be viable either. For over a decade, the role of plague marines was to be a durable special weapon squad.

Anyways, the only reason to run barebone plague marine squads is to have them as cheap troops tax. In Codex: Plague Marines, their signature unit should absolutely not be pure tax.

Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Sorry, I don't know how to respond to this without making insults about your intelligence. For your sake, I'll just assume "exact same rules" is you just not remembering things quite right and kindly ask you to once more read both datasheets carefully. I'm sure you'll easily spot differences between the two.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

Wrong again. Points efficiency isn't relative at all, efficiency is how many kills a unit does per per point, or if they survive as much shooting as they did before. Neither went down.

You're also wrong about the relation other armies. The biggest threats to DG (tau, eldar, nids) went up in points, which means - according to your own logic - bolter marines got better in relation.

The third thing you are wrong about is that plague marines with bolters stayed the same - the sigil now became free as well, which means your bolter marines now wield the same titan-killing power as imperial guardsmen, at no extra cost.

Last, but not least, you don't field single models, you field units. The humble bolter plague marine still has a place in units with maxed plasma guns and blight launchers, as none of the melee weapons allow you to shoot. Especially when you pair them with a tallyman or lord, use the virulent rounds stratagem to score Fleeing Vectors, want some extra shots at 24" or just need a backfield objective campers, having some extra bolter shots instead of picking your nose all game with a greater plague cleaver has some merit.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

It's cute of you to imply that I don't actually have the models. I'll let you know that I actually collected every single one of the new plague marine sculpts that GW has made, and out of the 28 exactly half don't even have the option to be a barebone plague marine. In fact, there isn't a single champion model which can be equipped with just a bolter, the best you can do is bolter and plague sword. Not a single one of the boxes ever had the option to build a barebones unit. The out of print DI unit comes closest but still has a powerfist, plague sword and a plasma gunner. So unless you somehow cut off all those options and replaced them with bolters, you should have the models somewhere.

Their gear also doesn't need to be optimized at all. Sure, there are already lists of optimal load-outs floating around, but they are still extremely close in efficiency most similar load-outs. So what if you don't have ton of flails and cleavers? Just run them with powefist, melta, icon and spitter. They'll do well enough. No plasma guns? Just slap some nurgle iconography from another kit or your 3D printer onto one of your marines and call it a sigil and keep enjoying your bolter hit squad.
Sure, if you are trying to win GTs, your army has to change - but that's the game you chose to play, right?

Personally, I'm stoked for this update especially because of the model issue - I can now run my entire collection with all those silly wargear options without getting shot off the board because my wounds per points were too low.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

You criticism doesn't really apply since all the options except for the plasma pistol and the flamer equivalent (both useless across all armies) were the same amount of points before anyways.

A plasma gun still costs the same as a melta, a heavy flamer or a power fist. This didn't change at all. You just didn't get a point drop on pure tax units.

They also don't need a specific load-out to work, this is a gross misrepresentation of what I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.

If you think DG wouldn't just have spammed those 75 point plague marine units, you understand the game even less than GW's designers do.

Not to mention people completely losing their gak over 15 points plague marines.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

Have you tried magnetizing Plague Marines? Even if what you say is true, it doesn't apply to the units that GW have done this to. PM used to have a melee-centric build as well as a shooting-centric build, for example. The same applied to CSM Chosen and Terminators before this idiotic policy.

Yeah, there are three (or four? Not sure on the melta marine from the big kit) plague marines you can magnetize. All others are either mono-pose or are a choice between bolter and special weapon. In reality you just build each of the special weapon dudes and switch bolter marines from DI/ETB in or out. Supply of those is drying up though, so it absolutely will be a problem for future players unless they buy that super expensive box of 7 and build them all into bolter marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Would they? I'm not convinced. Assuming we kept PM at their current cost, there exists a cost for each upgrade that makes it desirable while still making it an option rather than de facto compulsory. That cost is likely somewhere between the old cost and 0. Discovering a suitable cost is what playtesting is for.

Sadly GW's stupid "no model no rules" policy means things like having one unit entry allowing for multiple approaches doesn't work now. There's no more option to take melee PM, or even to specialise with dual Blight Launcher. Allowing those kind of options back in would also help diversify the unit role and create less of a no-brainer choice.

Your suggestion puts plague marines at 75-125 points. 75 points for 5 2W/3+/T5/DR/AoC bodies is too cheap, no matter how you put it.
GW's solution dodges that bullet by putting them at 105 points minimum and reduce the cost of maxing out options to opportunity cost - I have yet to see proof of any loadout that would be too good at 105/210 points.

Full melee squads are still possible, by the way - 2 flails, 2 cleavers, 2 maces, 2 Axes, Icon and PF Champion. Especially with the massive point drops on those, they are probably better than ever before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
"Sepsis cohorts number around seven hundred Plague Marines"

"The mainstay of Death Guard vectoriums, Plague Marines excel in short-ranged firefights and relentless assaults that grind the enemy down"

Sounds like rank and file dorks to me.

Well, don't stop reading there!

"For all their physical and spiritual corruption, the Plague Marines of the Death Guard are highly drilled, superhuman warriors. They remain Mortarion's perfect infantrymen, tactically astute and well-equipped combatants, whose incredible strength combines with an impressive array of hideous weapons to render them lethal at mid-to-close ranges."

It then goes on for a full paragraph describing why they don't exclusively use boltguns.

Wait, there is more:
"Since then, many Heretic Astartes have dedicated themselves to Nurgle, though few achieve the vaunted ranks of the Death Guard. Those who truly wish to join this most foetid of cadres must first swear loyalty to the Primarch Mortarion -- only then will Nurgle bestow upon them the corrupting ague that created the Plague Marines."

Nice trying to misrepresent the lore by cherry-picking one sentence though. Just because Mortarion treats his Death Guard as expendable, doesn't mean that they aren't the chosen of nurgle.

To quote Daedalus "Time will tell" whether Plague Marines become overbearing with their new free loadouts.

However, I did play Plague Marines in Crusade using Power Levels and as people may know the loadouts there are technically just part of the general cost. They are(last time I checked) around power level 6 which is around 120 points(so 15 more points than barebone). So I of course decked them out with all the bling. If I saw something I could add to a squad I did.

Did they overperform? No, not really. Most of them died because most enemies have ranged fire and Plague Marines aren't actually known for speed and tend to be very melee oriented in their builds. So I remain skeptical that this was a bad move. At least with this they have a slight threat aura when capping an objective, but they continue to remain weak to high strength fire and enemy units that have higher movement than they.

I know people think the core Plague Marine model cost should have been lowered, but as has been mentioned here it would just make them spammable action monkeys which is not good for the game. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have 13-14 point Plague Marines, but the rest of you who have to face them would utterly loathe it.

So basically they should just just cut plague marine options, give em all the fancy gubbins by default and theyd have achieved this without the weirdness?

I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

I think its safe to say making Plague Marines cheaper than Tactical Marines/Legionaires would be a weird choice.

I think there's an argument they could have tried making Plague Marines 19/20 points - and making most of the special weapons 5 points cheaper. (So Belchers/Plasma Pistols/axes free, plasma/blight launchers/flails etc 5 points etc). But I think this method works too.

I guess we'll see if people start slowly advancing 60~ blinged out Plague Marines down the table.

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

We'll don't I now look foolish for not taking power fists and icons in all of my Plague Marine units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

But… they came with the model so in a sense, the consumer who is GW’s target hobbyist already paid for them…

Lately I have had some downtime and have tried to adapt my collection to current rules. Four completely different factions or five if inquisition sets apart from guard as imperium generally. I was able to fathom smallish eldar and og marines forces. Wow… for all the layers of stuff, traits and relics and upgrade limitations on stuff all “free” unless paid for using a separate cp economy instead of points, I got the feeling that a thirteen year old kid thought that all of the old stuff could have been done better, so s/he took some ideas from those old rules and reinvented them in a more proprietary fashion, without the focus on improvement but, as with a child, expression of ego. Yes, the armies were able to come together. I like the void dude units I think, and have some old old models that fit well enough to let me do something with that for example. But… the pl points relation was something odd, and frankly I just wish that they would do the best with the least rather than try to sell the most for meh.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

I have learnt some players are weirdly attached to the idea of everything having a points cost. The idea of Guard squads having free gear was an old one (because they aren't penal conscripts) and it was passionately objected to because 'you can't have free weapons'. Well you clearly can if their base unit is 'overcosted'. The argument of having nominal costs for weapons and higher core costs is a kind of half way house fix but is really railroading the player. If plasma guns are 2 points and lesser weapons 1 point, you are still going to be building optimally.

I can say from a game design point of view working with optimal/likely builds it is far easier to attempt to balance things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.


I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.

If you think DG wouldn't just have spammed those 75 point plague marine units, you understand the game even less than GW's designers do.

Not to mention people completely losing their gak over 15 points plague marines..

Can you point to any points cost I actually suggested in my post? Before you accuse people of not understanding something maybe read it properly first. It's perfectly possible to tweak the points of both PM and their equipment to allow players to make choices, where each has its merits over the other, without doing what GW did. The key is the relative values of the PM and the equipment. That relationship needs playtesting to figure out, which is why I never suggested a specific cost. No idea where you got 15 points from, but keep plugging away at those random insults, I guess.

Ah, I guess this isn't super clear to people who don't play DG:
The "best" ranged unit loadout had five marines with 2x plasma 1x BL and was 135 points before the change, it's now 105. That's a points drop of 30 points, which would result in a 75 points unit, according to your suggestion of "drop the base price and keep equipment the same"

I put "best" in quotes, because the unit still wasn't taken since adding points meant you are less efficient at surviving, one of the most important qualities of a DG unit. You have to keep in mind that plague marines are always in competition with two of the best terminator units in the game. By just being cheap bodies with bolters they will never be a match.

So no, for most upgrades, no matter how cheap you make them, simply not taking that upgrade will always be the right option.

For this specific datasheet in this specific codex, free upgrades is the superior solution to any combination of model and equipment point costs because it takes survivability out of the equation for better internal balance.
And the choices are still there - some stratagems and equipments require bolters or plague knives to work, melee weapons can't shoot, plasma, melta and flamers have different effective ranges and you have more options than marines in the squad, so you can't just take everything. At the very least you'll have to decide if you want to have long-range, short range, melee or jack-of-all-trades squad.

LOL what a clown ass post. Nobody cares about the Strats for Bolters or Plague Knives when you can just swap the Plague Knives for already better weapons (thus saving CP) and the fact you can just save the Bolters-Are-Plague-Weapons for Blightlords.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
LOL what a clown ass post. Nobody cares about the Strats for Bolters or Plague Knives when you can just swap the Plague Knives for already better weapons (thus saving CP) and the fact you can just save the Bolters-Are-Plague-Weapons for Blightlords.

You're trading your plague knives away? Cool story, really shows how well-versed you are with the death guard's rules. You sure you aren't working with GW?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I have learnt some players are weirdly attached to the idea of everything having a points cost. The idea of Guard squads having free gear was an old one (because they aren't penal conscripts) and it was passionately objected to because 'you can't have free weapons'. Well you clearly can if their base unit is 'overcosted'. The argument of having nominal costs for weapons and higher core costs is a kind of half way house fix but is really railroading the player. If plasma guns are 2 points and lesser weapons 1 point, you are still going to be building optimally.

But you still have to pay for it.

If things are free, then it assumes that everything is of equal value, which we know isn't true.

Then, when you try to fix an overpowered unit that is overpowered because of one specific combo (READ: Tyranid Warriors with 2 Boneswords/Deathspitter) by increasing the cost of the unit, rather than adding points values to the overly effective weapons, you create further imbalance as now the lesser combos cost even more for the same mediocre abilities, further incentivising you to take the most powerful combo anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

Spoiler:

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.
[spoiler]

I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.[/spoiler]

If you paid attention to HBMC, you'd know this is 100% an on principle thing -- he absolutely has said the same thing about Tyranid Warriors where presumably his warriors would benefit from free weapons. And sorry, but comparing free gauss reapers/choppas/bolt pistols to free special weapons is just so incredibly dishonest, I don't know why I'm engaging. And yeah, that video is pretty dumb. You talked earlier about people insulting your intelligence, but you're very much insulting others' intelligence if you try to deny that some weapons are better than others in 95% of situations.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess this isn't super clear to people who don't play DG:
The "best" ranged unit loadout had five marines with 2x plasma 1x BL and was 135 points before the change, it's now 105. That's a points drop of 30 points, which would result in a 75 points unit, according to your suggestion of "drop the base price and keep equipment the same".

My most common opponent is DG. I understand how they work just fine. I also understand there probably aren't enough PM showing up in "good" DG armies, so there probably needs to be something done about that. AoC may help out longer term, though I'm not convinced.

You're still projecting your own ideas here though, not actually taking what I said into account. My suggestion never said, nor implied, "make PM units 75 points base". There are a lot of options between the current 105-point, bare bones unit and the proposed 105-point take-everything unit.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

Spoiler:

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.
[spoiler]

I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.[/spoiler]

If you paid attention to HBMC, you'd know this is 100% an on principle thing -- he absolutely has said the same thing about Tyranid Warriors where presumably his warriors would benefit from free weapons. And sorry, but comparing free gauss reapers/choppas/bolt pistols to free special weapons is just so incredibly dishonest, I don't know why I'm engaging. And yeah, that video is pretty dumb. You talked earlier about people insulting your intelligence, but you're very much insulting others' intelligence if you try to deny that some weapons are better than others in 95% of situations.

You don't understand though! There's a Strat for Plague Knives!

 Jidmah wrote:

Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Sorry, I don't know how to respond to this without making insults about your intelligence. For your sake, I'll just assume "exact same rules" is you just not remembering things quite right and kindly ask you to once more read both datasheets carefully. I'm sure you'll easily spot differences between the two.

Neither pay to upgrade their boltguns to plasma guns, that was the similarity I was pointing out.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

Wrong again. Points efficiency isn't relative at all, efficiency is how many kills a unit does per per point, or if they survive as much shooting as they did before. Neither went down.

You're also wrong about the relation other armies. The biggest threats to DG (tau, eldar, nids) went up in points, which means - according to your own logic - bolter marines got better in relation.

The third thing you are wrong about is that plague marines with bolters stayed the same - the sigil now became free as well, which means your bolter marines now wield the same titan-killing power as imperial guardsmen, at no extra cost.

Last, but not least, you don't field single models, you field units. The humble bolter plague marine still has a place in units with maxed plasma guns and blight launchers, as none of the melee weapons allow you to shoot. Especially when you pair them with a tallyman or lord, use the virulent rounds stratagem to score Fleeing Vectors, want some extra shots at 24" or just need a backfield objective campers, having some extra bolter shots instead of picking your nose all game with a greater plague cleaver has some merit.

Bolter Plague Marines got better, armed to the teef Plague Marines got a lot better. The sigil of decay is something you have to model as well isn't it? Have some compassion for Timmy who got started 12 months ago (or Lord Damocles).

There must be some of the melee weapons worth taking previously right, why didn't people just always take bolters previously if the melee weapons were all worth 0 pts? Why did people take plasmas if they were worth 0 pts? You are defending gak and doing a gak job of it.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

It's cute of you to imply that I don't actually have the models.

I don't have Death Guard models, I play Tabletop Simulator. I didn't imply gak about you, I have no clue about your collection. I don't have money for the Silent King at the moment and I think it'd be very hard to make a competitive Necrons list without him, I don't think that's okay. I don't think it would be okay for Necrons to have to rely on having at least 80 Warriors either, because that would be bad for all the people that do not own 80 Warriors, whether I have 80 Warriors is irrelevant.

Nice trying to misrepresent the lore by cherry-picking one sentence though. Just because Mortarion treats his Death Guard as expendable, doesn't mean that they aren't the chosen of nurgle.

Know what the actual chosen of Nurgle are? Terminators, you know those that come with all power weapons instead of bolters and plague knives.

"Blightlord Terminators are relentless and elite Death Guard bound forever to mutated suits of Cataphractii armour."

Plague Marines and Blightlord Terminators are not equally elite, that's all I'm saying. I know that there is a difference between an Imperial Guardsman and a Plague Marine, but elite Guardsmen are Veterans and elite Death Guard are Blightlord Terminators. This is not a fething hot take. Damn.

 jeff white wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

But… they came with the model so in a sense, the consumer who is GW’s target hobbyist already paid for them…

Not if they got them second-hand or you used/sold/gifted away the bits or got them painted without asking for the bits. These are all valid ways to collect an army and play the game. If your buddy would like some bits that you aren't using why not let him have it? Except because GW is a capricious master and you have to be ready to rip your models apart on command.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing?

My converted Necron HQ with hyperphase swords and voidblades are useless, I am not a Death Guard player, I am just making guesses when it comes to what appropriate costs would look like for them. My Warriors, Immortals, Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard are lousy half the time because GW doesn't make an effort to get points close enough that I can feel good about the loadout I have on them. Sometimes an upgrade really should cost 0 pts, like when Immortal tesla used to be 2 pts the internal balance of the datasheet was worse than it is now at 0 pts. Right now I can feel good about my tesla and my gauss Immortals, because the price is pretty right, last edition tesla should have costed extra points but it didn't. I happen to be in luck with my Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard right now because I happen to have picked the right wargear choice 8 years ago, but more than half of Necron players are probably on the unlucky side of that equation at the moment. Even just 1 pt extra to get what is close to an auto-upgrade would be good even if the ideal cost is 10 extra pts. This fethed-up powerlevelization is messing with my faction right now and you and every power level player is making it less likely that GW will fix their gak. I can fix the costs of Lords and Overlords in a minute. from:

Base 85
Voidscythe +10
Staff of light +0
Warscythe +0
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0
Hyperphase glaive +0

Base 65
Staff of light +0
Warscythe +0
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0

to:

Base 80
Voidscythe +15
Staff of light +5
Warscythe +5
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0
Hyperphase glaive +5

Base 60
Staff of light +5
Warscythe +4
Voidblade +1
Hyperphase sword +0