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EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

I called Trajann going up to 200, which is awesome. He's finally where he should be. But Bikers staying 80 points seems odd, given their uselessness in their current state.

Glad they fixed Trajann now though.

It matters because all the other options are waste of time and space.

It matters because it limits strategy, tactics, and list-building.

It matters because this isn't a game where there should even be an automatic best answer to every situation.

For tyranids specifically, its a long legacy of GW reblending the same weapons and deciding (more or less at random) which the best one is. Which means the 'best' answer over the long term is leaving the models unfinished so you don't need to change them.

Tyel wrote:
Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

Putting quad talons on a Warrior used to be a good way to build a unit that blends chaff (pre-8th) or was a cheap and cheerful melee synapse leader (8th). Now it just kinda sucks. If you took talons and a ranged weapon, you're best off just counting the talons as boneswords. Bigger issue if you took rending claws because those are pretty terrible now, with virtually no situation in which they outperform boneswords.

This is rather like telling the Guard players who put grenade launchers on their infantry 'sorry plasma guns are just better in every way now, but you knew what you were getting into by embracing grenade launchers'. Uh, exactly what did they 'know' they were getting involved in?

Well, in any case I guess GW heard me wish that PL represented upgrades as well as points, and so the monkey's paw curled a finger.

Well, or also magnets

 Tyran wrote:
Well, or also magnets

GW fething over Tyranid weapon options each edition is literally the reason I got into magnetization, so fair enough.

Even with magnets, I happen to really like how Scything Talons look, and find it a shame that crunch-wise there's virtually no reason to ever take them over Boneswords.

Best part is that Chaos Space Marines get the two wound markup while at one wound. Obviously the update is soon but until the book comes out the marine unit either does not exist or pays 18 pts for T4 1W and a 3+.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

Grots are 4 points now.
Seems to be the most significant change for Orks

BrainFireBob wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

Yes, they should have fired Cruddace a long time ago.

Sadly IG players were blinded by his 5th ed IG codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Their hamfisted attempts to balance a Tyranid unit has, in effect, created a larger amount of imbalance. I am simply in awe of their continued ability to reach new heights of utter incompetence at every turn.

It used to surprise me but now I expect it. Death, taxes, and GW having incompetent rules writers.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Grots are 4 points now.
Seems to be the most significant change for Orks

few hqs and buggies down a few points. but yea given the changes to other armies orks unless something big happens tomorrow will stay terrible.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Space Marines have too many choices in general, something is always going to get shafted. Especially a niche, more expensive troop option that no one asked for.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Extra 70pts for a Stormsurge is a big oof, but I'll still use it, don't get the mindset of those who claim it's "literally unplayable" the moment the points go up.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

This. Just because a unit used to cost 320pts on paper doesn't mean that it's really "worth" 320pts. If you spent all those posts on Plague Marines and got fists and icons just because you likely weren't getting their "value" for it. We're unlikely to see Plague Marines becoming overwhelming or the new meta.

Quickly glanced over the CA 2022 point-changes for SM (non-chapter specific)



Basically, some stuff that needed to get cheaper did,, some stuff that needed to get cheaper didn't.

Most of the SM-tanks get a 10-15 point discount, and the heavy tanks get a 20-35 point discount.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Space Marines have too many choices in general, something is always going to get shafted. Especially a niche, more expensive troop option that no one asked for.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Extra 70pts for a Stormsurge is a big oof, but I'll still use it, don't get the mindset of those who claim it's "literally unplayable" the moment the points go up.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

This. Just because a unit used to cost 320pts on paper doesn't mean that it's really "worth" 320pts. If you spent all those posts on Plague Marines and got fists and icons just because you likely weren't getting their "value" for it. We're unlikely to see Plague Marines becoming overwhelming or the new meta.

Saying 'so what if the thing that is worse costs the same as the thing that is better, deal with it!' ...just balance games by wounds count if that is the logic.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

There are two issues:

First, you have the DG player from 8th edition who owns 30 PMs, 20 with bolters, he now owns 10 PMs for 9th and 20 pretty paperweights.

Second, you have the DG player from 9th edition who will build 30 PMs, 0 with bolters. When 10th edition rolls around or in 6/12 months time (one of the Sister banner things went from costing ponts to free a while ago back to costing points today) he is going to be surprised to learn he now needs to own possibly another 30~60 PMs to build sensible squads again.

There was nothing stopping GW from dropping PMs to 19 and then dropping the weapons from 10 down to 5 or 5 down to 3. Strangely enough that would have allowed 210 point 4 of the best melee weapon builds, 210 point 4 of the best ranged weapon builds and all kinds of funky middling builds with a variety of weapons. Best part of that would no one sitting on bolter PMs would feel like a chump for owning them because at least they were cheaper if you just wanted cheaper.

BrainFireBob wrote:
[They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

These terrible points choices make playing with the models over the long term very unsatisfying. It is even worse than the traiditonal GW hokey-cokey of just switching which the best special/heavy option is around roughly each edition.

Again, you do wonder if it is a deliberate ploy (rather than sheer dunce level incompetence) because whenever a new kit comes out nowadays I'm over the moon if it just has a single mono-profile for the squad.

Really excited to get my Hammerfall Bunker on the table with the new points drops. You just never see them

Oh wait, they didn’t touch it….. I guess they must be selling just fine (yeah right) what a bizarre omission, especially with all the vehicle buffs. Maybe dataslate tomorrow will have it function as a true drop pod (suuuure).

Some of the vehicle drops are definitely welcome though

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

You'd think that's the last thing they'd want to do.

https://tabletoptactics.tv/?p=353500#1655210473784-160168b4-e211

Shows all the changes. Pretty much this round was a hammer to Eldar, Tau, and Nids. I play Eldar and personally I think all of the points increases for Eldar are legitimate. My Thousand Sons actually did pretty well as well with the Rubrics. We will see if this shakes up the meta, especially on top of the CP change and the balance sheet which is tomorrow I believe.

Tyranids didn't get any sort of hammer. The codex is still amazing and top tier.

We got a hammer, but the codex is still top tier even after the hammer. The same applies to Eldar. Tau may be dead though.

Of course, we still have a dataslate tomorrow, so we are not out of the woods yet.

 Tyran wrote:
We got a hammer....

Hammer in this context means the nerf hammer, that basically blows a codex up into crap. We didn't get that. We aren't Custodes or Tau.

Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

- edit -

Because this is Dakka, and everyone assumes/rationalizes, let me add the caveat that I'm not implying Tyranids NEEDED a huge nerf. I'm glad we got a slap on the wrist. I can still enjoy the game.

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

 BuFFo wrote:

Hammer in this context means the nerf hammer, that basically blows a codex up into crap. We didn't get that. We aren't Custodes or Tau.

Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

Nerfs are nerfs, specially when some of the point increases are over 20% or higher.
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power as the average competitive list went up 200 or even 300 points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

Depends. The Tyranid codex is an amazingly well written/thought out book in context to how Tyranids have been in the past. Most fluffy, engrossing, best all around codex Tyranids have ever gotten.

I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

We can get you guys some more point hikes if you really want.

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power

So in other words, "mission accomplished"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BuFFo wrote:
I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

You can lower points only so far before you start a race to the bottom. Up is better than down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power

So in other words, "mission accomplished"?

Well, we still have the dataslate and GW's love for double dipping to survive tomorrow.

Well they've triple dipped on the Maleceptor. How much worse can it get?

Yea I'm hoping the slate gives some love to Daemons and Admech, because it clearly didn't happen here. ( I'm on the fence about GSC )

Otherwise the point adjustments seem decent enough to get us through the next 6 months.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day for sure...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm hoping the slate gives some love to Daemons and Admech, because it clearly didn't happen here. ( I'm on the fence about GSC )

Otherwise the point adjustments seem decent enough to get us through the next 6 months.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day for sure...

I'd add Orks onto that list. The last few dataslates/CAs haven't been kind to them. Not to mention their mess of a codex.