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Going thru the games and what else is around

Deadzone is pretty unique as it has real 3D instead of 2D on different levles, not something everyone likes as you need the table for it, and no one else offers something similar (a reason why I think they are using Deadzone as base for their Halo game) and the only real alternative being Infinity but that one is also much more detailed

Kings of War is the streamlined R&F games comparable to several historical rules with the only difference being no formation changes
there are better R&F games, but all of them are historicals and most of them Napoleonic (Lasalle or General d'Armee)
the medieval or ancient R&F games are not much different just having different levels on details for units

(compared to those, Warhammer Fantasy is a mass-skirmish game with formation rules and the single models being way to important to catch the R&F feeling, Mantic does not offer anything similar, and the games that come close are again Napoleonic, Sharp Practice for example)

FireFight is pretty much the standard SciFi alternate activation game, nothing special to see here but games in that genre come and go as everything that is not 40k or has models that are useable 1:1 for it are ignored anyway (no matter how unique the gameplay might be)

Armada, a fantasy version of a historical game and pretty much the only one out there and all credits or complains go to Warlord Games anyway

I haven't played DSO yet so cannot say something about it
Dreadball is a sports game, adds in with BB being Fantasy American Football, Guildball being Fantasy Football and Dreadball being SciFi Basketball, a niche within a niche

Vanguard being a good game and again alone out there in what it is doing (Mortheim is focused on campaigns and other fantasy skirmish games need more models), yet Mantic wanted it to be the entry to KoW which was a dead end as a Skirmish never translates well into R&F games (not even in historicals, you are better off with a dedicated force for Sharp Practice and General d'Armee than trying to get units working in both)

the Boardgames are Boardgames and depends if you like the setting they try to catch or not (Walking Dead is not for me as I am not intrested, neither the comics nor the TV show)

so for me the rules they have are good in doing their thing with not a lot of alternatives out there in the same genre

I'd agree with all the above, and add that Deadzone, when it came out, was one of the most novel, slick and inspired systems ever, even though it was a 2012 runaway success Kickstarter based mostly on sketches and low prices and could have been just phoned in after collecting the money. Probably the only reason it didn't become the "industry standard" for skirmish games is that it doesn't really work without a bespoke line of terrain. And some healthy dose of anti Mantic bias of course.

For me the fiction just didn't grab me, and I was turned off by the rules innovation. Maybe I should give it another look. I don't really love mantic's Sci Fi factions though tbh, I think they made some bad calls right at the bottom in terms of faction design and it unfortunately puts me off their Sci Fi games. I like a lot of the models (the vehicles in particular are great) and some of the factions, but Asterians have really ugly designs to me and I've never seen a Veermyn model I liked the look of, and I'm not a huge fan of the Marauder aesthetic. Enforcers are alright and plague is interesting, but again I don't love the aesthetic they landed on - a little less saturday morning cartoon and a little more body horror would have worked better for me. The only ones I really like are the Forgefathers, and even then it's only the ones with fully enclosed helmets I really enjoy.

A shame, because I was really ready to give mantic sci fi a good shake.

I have only ever heard good things about the rules though to be fair.

What I really appreciate about the fluff is that all the factions are immensely competent. The world didn't go to gak because their Elf equivalent fell asleep at the wheel while safeguarding the galaxy or because humans are cartoonishly greedy or intolerant or any other usual trope.

For example, Asterians are watching for Plague outbreaks kinda like Eldar were supposed to watch for Necrons. They try to keep other races away from infected systems, if someone opens a jar of Plague anyway they send robotic forces to assist, but if that doesn't work they have a cloaked planet killer in every system to wipe the planet before Plague can spread.

 Da Boss wrote:
For me the fiction just didn't grab me, and I was turned off by the rules innovation. Maybe I should give it another look. I don't really love mantic's Sci Fi factions though tbh, I think they made some bad calls right at the bottom in terms of faction design and it unfortunately puts me off their Sci Fi games. I like a lot of the models (the vehicles in particular are great) and some of the factions, but Asterians have really ugly designs to me and I've never seen a Veermyn model I liked the look of, and I'm not a huge fan of the Marauder aesthetic. Enforcers are alright and plague is interesting, but again I don't love the aesthetic they landed on - a little less saturday morning cartoon and a little more body horror would have worked better for me. The only ones I really like are the Forgefathers, and even then it's only the ones with fully enclosed helmets I really enjoy.

A shame, because I was really ready to give mantic sci fi a good shake.

I have only ever heard good things about the rules though to be fair.

Agreed with this. I want to like the Asterians, Veermyn, and Enforcers. Every so often I think to myself "these are cheap, maybe I'll pick them up", but then I go through the model range and see theres only one or two minis I kinda like while the rest are kinda gross.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
What I really appreciate about the fluff is that all the factions are immensely competent. The world didn't go to gak because their Elf equivalent fell asleep at the wheel while safeguarding the galaxy or because humans are cartoonishly greedy or intolerant or any other usual trope.

For example, Asterians are watching for Plague outbreaks kinda like Eldar were supposed to watch for Necrons. They try to keep other races away from infected systems, if someone opens a jar of Plague anyway they send robotic forces to assist, but if that doesn't work they have a cloaked planet killer in every system to wipe the planet before Plague can spread.

That's it though, that all just sound derivative and bland, which is a problem that affects the majority of the fluff. The entire body of the lore honestly sounds like it was written by a 14 year old who had just read his first 40k rulebook (not that 40k's lore is particularly compelling these days). All that combined with a miniature range that varies from boring to just plain bad and you have a game that, despite how much praise the main rules get, completely fails to inspire any real interest from me. Every time I think it might be worth checking out one of their games I just have to look at the factions and miniatures to cure me of my curiosity. It's a shame too, I really want to like Mantic, but they seem to go out of their way to make their products as unappealing as possible.

Hmm, I see it as "What would 40k be if it didn't look like a 14 year old was writing it"

But I'll concede this makes it less evocative.

I agree with Zethnar

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hmm, I see it as "What would 40k be if it didn't look like a 14 year old was writing it"

But I'll concede this makes it less evocative.

I like the lore of the Warpath universe a bit more than 40K. It's more science fiction than 40K's Scifi/Fantasy. I like the lore behind why area's, continents, or planets being deemed "deadzones" by the GCPS and all communication to those zones are cut off. Plus all information about those places are redacted or wiped off the databases as it they don't exist. While in those "deadzones" all sorts of stuff is happening because it attracts shady people and it basically becomes lawless.

I do agree with all lores in Mantic games can be somewhat bland. But it has been steadily getting better. I remember when lore was written for Ratkin in Kings of War and it was kind of cringe. But reading it now, they made some revisions and added more lore.

 Zethnar wrote:

That's it though, that all just sound derivative and bland, which is a problem that affects the majority of the fluff. The entire body of the lore honestly sounds like it was written by a 14 year old who had just read his first 40k rulebook (not that 40k's lore is particularly compelling these days).

That makes it sound like you haven't read much of Mantic's lore. I don't get the shonen vibe of Warhammer from Mantic's lore.
A matter of taste, I suppose.
I like tha KoW lore keeps tropes recognizable for if you want to bring something with you, but with something extra to make things their own flavour.

All that combined with a miniature range that varies from boring to just plain bad and you have a game that, despite how much praise the main rules get, completely fails to inspire any real interest from me. Every time I think it might be worth checking out one of their games I just have to look at the factions and miniatures to cure me of my curiosity. It's a shame too, I really want to like Mantic, but they seem to go out of their way to make their products as unappealing as possible.

This boggels my mind.
You don't have to use Mantic models to play KoW.

Rules are just a context to get your models on the table and a vehicle for what you want to represent.
If a game has lore you like that's great, but KoW purposefully leaves the door open to bring your own.
Isn't there a fantasy trope, story or concept that you want to bring to a wargaming table?

I can't quite wrap my head around how many wargamers let their hobby get dictated to them. It's your hobby with your miniatures that you bought , built and painted or will buy, build and paint.
You can take ownership of your own hobby.

The Warpath/Deadzone background has a completely different flavor than 40k. The tone and world building remind me more of New Space Opera, as written by Peter Hamilton, Neal Asher and their peers, than of the grimdark pseudo-Catholicism of 40k.

KOW was still being fleshed out the last time I read it, but Ithought it felt more inspired by the Silmarillion and Warcraft than by TOW’s more historical inspiration.

they have a free sample for their latest KoW novel https://www.manticgames.com/kings-of-war-fiction/pride-of-a-king-free-sample/

so one can have a look if the background is for them or not

and I agree, the 2 settings are very different flavour and not liking them is ok
For me I prefer the SciFi of Warpath over the futuristic-fantasy of 40k, specially as the good of 40k is really valid any more and new things are not for me

 DarkBlack wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:

That's it though, that all just sound derivative and bland, which is a problem that affects the majority of the fluff. The entire body of the lore honestly sounds like it was written by a 14 year old who had just read his first 40k rulebook (not that 40k's lore is particularly compelling these days).

That makes it sound like you haven't read much of Mantic's lore. I don't get the shonen vibe of Warhammer from Mantic's lore.
A matter of taste, I suppose.
I like tha KoW lore keeps tropes recognizable for if you want to bring something with you, but with something extra to make things their own flavour.

Honestly, I haven't read much of it, a few bits and pieces of the Warpath setting back when it was supposed to be a 28mm mass battle game on kickstarter, and a few pages from various rulebooks I've seen just to reconfirm that I didn't like it. Nothing about it really grabbed me, I don't know why I would have spent a lot of time diving any further into it. All the talk of evil mega corporations and secret super soldier conspiracies really did not come across as particularly mature or compelling.

I don't know what a shonen vibe is.

 DarkBlack wrote:

All that combined with a miniature range that varies from boring to just plain bad and you have a game that, despite how much praise the main rules get, completely fails to inspire any real interest from me. Every time I think it might be worth checking out one of their games I just have to look at the factions and miniatures to cure me of my curiosity. It's a shame too, I really want to like Mantic, but they seem to go out of their way to make their products as unappealing as possible.

This boggels my mind.
You don't have to use Mantic models to play KoW.

Rules are just a context to get your models on the table and a vehicle for what you want to represent.
If a game has lore you like that's great, but KoW purposefully leaves the door open to bring your own.
Isn't there a fantasy trope, story or concept that you want to bring to a wargaming table?

I can't quite wrap my head around how many wargamers let their hobby get dictated to them. It's your hobby with your miniatures that you bought , built and painted or will buy, build and paint.
You can take ownership of your own hobby.

I get that you don't need to use particular model lines with particular rules books, for the most part I've been 3D printing stuff to play with for the past few years and getting into little indie games. That said if you want to support a company then buying product from them is a good way to do it. I want to support Mantic because I feel like there is space in the market for alternative sci-fi miniatures games (and honestly, I'm just over Star Wars as a property), but the fact is I don't like their Warpath setting, it feels boring and derivative. It's also a lot harder to proxy miniatures for their sci-fi universe than it is for fantasy (although even that has factions where you're going to be hard-pressed to find proxies) and since Firefight doesn't offer the option of playing custom factions, it kind of limits it to what's available. So while I hear that the rules are quite good, I really don't like the fluff or the models so I have no real incentive to buy in.

Like it or not, the setting really does play a factor in whether people are going to get excited about your stuff, and Mantic's effort is mediocre at best in that regard. Regardless of what you personally think about 40k (I personally think that anything coming after 7th edition has kind of jumped the shark a little) their setting really seems to hit a nerve with large portions of the wargaming community.

All that said, I do think Mantic's vault subscription service is fantastic and I've been following it in order to fill out my collection for Armada. I do wonder if the value is still going to be there after they run out of ships though.