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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/23 22:30:24
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If only these bloated, baroque rules translated into something more than simplistic, shallow, non-interactive gameplay... I have watched a few video battle reports and I am yet to see any single example of tactical depth in how people play.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/23 22:32:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/23 22:40:33
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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If I wasn't so busy with Battletech (as well as had a bigger budget), I'd be interested.
Losing Tomb Kings and Bretonnians are one of the things which made me not like Age of Sigmar.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/23 23:26:22
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Charging Dragon Prince
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Undecided if I want to get in or not. If it gains traction locally and the eventual release of High Elves looks nice I can probably be swayed into it.
Not going to bother trying to build a group from the ground up though, hard enough keeping up the motivation locally for Star Wars Legion group to keep growing and doing demo games.
Edit. Well, this post hasn't aged well, less than a day from it and I now own a Dark Elves army. Forgot I had this laying around and went ahead and just finished off the army around it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/24 04:30:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 01:06:19
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Its going to e huge here in DFW good line of people to get into the store on launch day and everything other then movement trays sold out almost instantly.
Got a dedicated discord that already has 103 members and know there are a lot more considering i know 7 people playing that haven't joined on discord
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 03:18:57
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Cyel wrote:If only these bloated, baroque rules translated into something more than simplistic, shallow, non-interactive gameplay... I have watched a few video battle reports and I am yet to see any single example of tactical depth in how people play.
That might not be the fault of the game. I've seen many a player whose whole concept of tactic and maneuver begins and ends with 'move forward and fight whatever's there' regardless of the game.
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CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 09:09:10
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Regular Dakkanaut
Germany
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lord_blackfang wrote: Sim-Life wrote:Undecided. I read over the rules and I dunno if its just me but the game seems fiddlier than ever (lots of small things to keep track of like Heavy or Regular infantry, Close/Open Order, Warband, Horde etc). Not keen on Give Ground and Fall Back In Good Order as rules and I feel like they'll result in a lot of weird situations. Many, MANY rules result in just giving an extra AP or Armourbane (X) or rerolling 1s, which is something I didn't like in 8/9/10th 40k (a lack of variety in special rules). I dunno. It just feels very mechanically safe and armies feel kind of bland.
It's not you.
I think, without an ounce of snark or irony or whatever, that this is the single most difficult ruleset to penetrate that GW have published since I started playing in 1998. By a mile.
Sure these were some horridly fiddly/slow bits in the past (lapping around, killing 1 horse from a chariot, killing a dragon's rider, etc) but this is certainly an edition that tries to overwhelm with all the moving parts, nested rules, minor rules variations and a book that breaks all records in interdependent rules being completely disjointed and scattered across 250 pages with absolutely no regard for either the first time reader or a player trying to look something up during the game, and I dare say that most players will not in their lifetime play a single game to completion entirely according to the rules as written with no mistakes.
check Legions Imperialis, it is worse.
And it seems like new design style for GW games. Disgusting...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 09:41:26
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Vulcan wrote:Cyel wrote:If only these bloated, baroque rules translated into something more than simplistic, shallow, non-interactive gameplay... I have watched a few video battle reports and I am yet to see any single example of tactical depth in how people play.
That might not be the fault of the game. I've seen many a player whose whole concept of tactic and maneuver begins and ends with 'move forward and fight whatever's there' regardless of the game.
Oh, certainly, I have written about what 6th ed battle reports on YT look like even before ToW - it was the same thing on every channel.
Having said that, all these pages of rules are very light on giving players options. And it's important, because with options comes choice. And players may choose well or badly. Every such instance of a choice (what I call "an opportunity for mistake") helps with differentiating between the better and the worse player - the result of the game being based on accumulating consequences of good and bad choices over the course of the game.
But so many of ToW rules don't offer a choice. Instead they just order players to perform a mechanical, compulsory action, like rolling yet another die to see if a model Regenrates, for example. This doesn't help differentiate players based on skill and tactical merit, just adds another instance where final result is affected by randomness. These rules might easily have been cut to reduce bloat, shorten time spent on passive upkeep and put player agency more forward.
Another thing I will be interested in seeing is how the community works with comp systems for this game this time, because lists seem to be extremely open to abuse. I took a look at the Lizardmen list, for example, and immediately thought how obsolete Sauruses (Sauri?) and big dinos seem, compared to massed Skinks with blowpipes - starting any list with 200 Skinks for mere 1200pts should end up with them melting anything with their poisoned shots over the 6 turns of the game, while staying out of trouble with 6M skirmish formations, or, in the worst case, not giving away many points when killed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/24 09:43:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 10:35:28
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Well in your suggested case, chances are that the comp scene (official one) will just not allow legacy armies
And before people say that won't happen, yeah, how did that work out for Elysians and R&H in 40k?
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 10:47:05
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Oh, I am quite sure the Polish scene will never disallow armies, they'd rather produce lengthy balancing patch documents, like in 7th or 8th.
I guess limiting all entries to be taken a maximum of twice should be a good starting point.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/24 10:48:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 12:06:12
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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That remains to be seen. Specially when GW asserts itself.
Also hard limits are already a joke for some and an issue for other factions.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 12:16:36
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Foxy Wildborne
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Found an army builder, already has Legacy
https://old-world-builder.com/
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 12:18:52
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As they have always been  Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose  That's why it will be interesting to see how communities approach this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 14:07:27
Subject: Re:How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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People spent 4 years clamoring for a return of WHFB style army building with percentages, etc. and GW delivered. Now people are wanting to insert 40k style hard limit restrictions on units to prevent unit spam as though that wasn't a think in previous editions of WHFB. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cyel wrote:
Having said that, all these pages of rules are very light on giving players options. And it's important, because with options comes choice. And players may choose well or badly. Every such instance of a choice (what I call "an opportunity for mistake") helps with differentiating between the better and the worse player - the result of the game being based on accumulating consequences of good and bad choices over the course of the game.
But so many of ToW rules don't offer a choice. Instead they just order players to perform a mechanical, compulsory action, like rolling yet another die to see if a model Regenrates, for example. This doesn't help differentiate players based on skill and tactical merit, just adds another instance where final result is affected by randomness. These rules might easily have been cut to reduce bloat, shorten time spent on passive upkeep and put player agency more forward.
100%. But that seems to be what GW thinks makes for a fun game, as that basically sums out how all their games are designed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/24 14:10:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 14:12:40
Subject: Re:How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Me and three of my buddies dust off our old armies and played a game with the new rules. Was fun for nostalgia's shake but after playing Conquest and Song of Ice and Fire going back to that old rule mindset was not for us.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 16:55:33
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)
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Asmodios wrote:Its going to e huge here in DFW good line of people to get into the store on launch day and everything other then movement trays sold out almost instantly.
Got a dedicated discord that already has 103 members and know there are a lot more considering i know 7 people playing that haven't joined on discord
We may be the lucky ones. Since a lot of our fellows were into WAP and are excited to make the jump. Plus having a GW shop like the Cafe is a help.
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Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 19:55:50
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Charging Dragon Prince
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Hulksmash wrote:Asmodios wrote:Its going to e huge here in DFW good line of people to get into the store on launch day and everything other then movement trays sold out almost instantly.
Got a dedicated discord that already has 103 members and know there are a lot more considering i know 7 people playing that haven't joined on discord
We may be the lucky ones. Since a lot of our fellows were into WAP and are excited to make the jump. Plus having a GW shop like the Cafe is a help.
Been meaning to take a drive over to there myself since I am not too far away, been so out of the loop on most GW games it never felt worth heading over.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 20:17:47
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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Just picked up my rulebook.
Wasn’t what I went in for, but it was there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/24 20:45:43
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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The same thing happened to me, but with a Bretonnian army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/25 23:55:37
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Moustache-twirling Princeps
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Cyel wrote:If only these bloated, baroque rules translated into something more than simplistic, shallow, non-interactive gameplay... I have watched a few video battle reports and I am yet to see any single example of tactical depth in how people play.
These rules are new. What do you expect? Even still, I have watched probably every batrep on YT and I see a ton of instances of complexity. Movement especially matters and knowing how/when to pursue/restrain and where to redirect and how to flank, etc. It is hardly a "simplistic, shallow, non-interactive" game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/26 10:46:28
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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which is the basis of every R&F game and not something special for TOW or were that game is more complex than others
movement is key and TOW adds that also having the right formation at the right time is important
and if people do not use the possibility of the formation change during the games to get advantages there is not much complexity left
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/26 11:21:55
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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I think I'm in a camp where what I want is "simple simulationism". I prefer a system that "feels" right to me, where things behave as I intuitively expect, to a game that always provides interesting choices at the expense of that.
At the same time, I am not a fan of games where loyalty to the simulation makes it over complicated. I like relatively simple mechanics to evoke the feel I'm talking about.
I think the LOTR game is a reasonably good example of that (although better examples exist, I'm just using LOTR because people probably know it). The way shields and spears work, along with the pushing mechanic, tends to pull units into formations naturally, and results in fairly natural feeling battles between those formations. At the same time, heroic characters are simulated with some simple rules to make them more effective and allow them to "lead" normal troops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/26 12:16:09
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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em_en_oh_pee wrote:
These rules are new. What do you expect? Even still, I have watched probably every batrep on YT and I see a ton of instances of complexity. Movement especially matters and knowing how/when to pursue/restrain and where to redirect and how to flank, etc. It is hardly a "simplistic, shallow, non-interactive" game.
It depends what your point of comparison is. I think there are more (non-obvious and impactful) decision points when I play, say, Concordia, and that game has literally 4 pages of rules with basic decription of what a player does in his turn fitting within one short sentence.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/26 12:16:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/26 12:42:04
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Foxy Wildborne
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GW peeps certainly love confusing fiddlyness with complexity. I think you could rewrite ToW to play almost the same with a 75% smaller word count (and probably play time). It's not rare to see in a battle report people rolling 10-20 dice in 3-4 rolls and end up doing absolutely nothing.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/28 19:34:00
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I was not interested in TOW at all, but I received the rulebook in pdf format and I made the mistake of reading it.
The nostalgia is intense in it and the army lists.
I'm completely trying it with at least 2 friends. It also helps that I have a 2.000 points wood elves army painted.
Talking about the rulebook, it seems pretty solid to me. The only point I'm not 100% sure about are the break tests. All units are pretty much Stubborn (in 8th edition terms): if you get under your Ld you are not fleeing. It has its positive effects, but I don't like that it may make maneuver pointless to a point.
I'd also like to see GW showing more commitment: 1 kit per army (or even les for orcs & goblins it seems) is a poor rate. They could renew some metal kits at least
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/01/28 23:10:33
Subject: How many people are actually going to play old worlds?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Finally got my books. Now to find a game...
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