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 Selym wrote:
Aren't Commissars attached at the battalion or company level, rather than unit-by-unit? Just recalling reading Dead Men Walking, where a Commissar recalls getting to choose which regiment to be reassigned to after his previous job.

And I can give you an example of "Cadian Blood" where the 88th had no Commissars period.

Massed Commissars makes no sense, having more than one or two in any given engagement does seem a bit odd.

What makes even less sense is having Commissars, period, as part of the tabletop in any large capacity beyond a squad upgrade. The Commissariat, as an organization, needs to be removed from the tabletop and restricted solely to the background for anything higher than a Commissar.

They were added to establish an element of "Oooh! Grimdark! We shoot our own guys instead of letting them run!", but quite frankly?
Commissars as an actual unit are unnecessary at this juncture. Add them as an upgrade to a Squad and be done with it. No "Lord Commissars", none of this trash. Get fething rid of them.

I'm still waiting for a Commissar in a Leman Russ who can hit people with his sword...

Also, Lord Commissars are one of my favourite IG units.

They're my least favorite.

Why?

Because they're trash. They're an excuse to not develop an actual, real HQ choice that isn't just "A Company Commander and his BFFs".

As a question, what 'real' HQ choices would you like to see?

Honestly curious here, as I'm far from an expert on IG fluff, so I don't know what else they could add.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Aren't Commissars attached at the battalion or company level, rather than unit-by-unit? Just recalling reading Dead Men Walking, where a Commissar recalls getting to choose which regiment to be reassigned to after his previous job.

And I can give you an example of "Cadian Blood" where the 88th had no Commissars period.

Massed Commissars makes no sense, having more than one or two in any given engagement does seem a bit odd.

What makes even less sense is having Commissars, period, as part of the tabletop in any large capacity beyond a squad upgrade. The Commissariat, as an organization, needs to be removed from the tabletop and restricted solely to the background for anything higher than a Commissar.

They were added to establish an element of "Oooh! Grimdark! We shoot our own guys instead of letting them run!", but quite frankly?
Commissars as an actual unit are unnecessary at this juncture. Add them as an upgrade to a Squad and be done with it. No "Lord Commissars", none of this trash. Get fething rid of them.

Couldn't disagree more with all of this. Commissars have always been a huge part of the Imperial Guard background. Removing them would be like removing Chaplains from the Space Marines.

I also don't understand why you are so dead set on removing units from the codex. It's like whenever anything in the codex differs from your personal interpretation of the universe and faction then it doesn't belong. We had this same discussion in regards to Rough Riders.

Anyways Commissars are imperative to blob guard functioning properly and would be devastating to me to lose.

I play mostly CC blob guard centered around large amounts of infantry, Rougb Riders, and deep striking Scions. The last few codecies have made my armies a little worse with each edition and I'm worried a new one will further push them down.

Lord Commissars on the TT are supposed to represent the characters in stories who are Commissars, but are forced to lead their battlegroup. Unfortunately, there is an actual Lord Commissar rank, which has had its fluff transplanted into the IG codex.
Take 1 Commissar as a buffed up version of the current normal Commissar, and have him as a HQ choice, who only doesn't take a slot if another HQ choice is present.

Add a single model HQ choice like Lord Militant.

Lord Militant
A senior rank in the chain of command, a Lord Militant is a noble who has been educated in the military arts. It is his duty to lead his men on the field of battle, and to ensure the duties of his battlegroup are fulfilled.

Wargear for a Lord Militant should be something flashy, and encourage either a heroic charge, or a devastating barrage of firepower.

 vipoid wrote:
As a question, what 'real' HQ choices would you like to see?

Honestly curious here, as I'm far from an expert on IG fluff, so I don't know what else they could add.

I'll pick up the question, because I think it's an interesting one. This is one of the problems that commissars have always had, they were strictly limited by the number of CCS and PCS squads that you took. This prevents you from choosing between offensive order buffs and defensive morale buffs, instead you need to take CCS/PCS before you can take commissars, so rather than a tactical choice it's an extra tax/expense just to get commissars. Even if you take a Lord Commissar, your # of commissars is still strictly limited and the units they're allowed to join is also limited.

The tank commander was a good idea, but it was done halfway. Several factions in the game have HQ choices that really bring flavor to the army and open up other tactical options and IG should have the same sort of thing to reflect the vast variety of IG regiments throughout the galaxy a la the old regimental doctrines system. While IG are not known to be flexible within a particular army, they are varied throughout the galaxy.

Command Squads (traditional structure): bring orders, synergize with infantry through buffs.

Tank Commanders (armored corps/mech): enable players to take tanks and sentinels as troops and/or issue orders to vehicles

Lord Commissar (commissariat detachment): allows IC commissars, each one has aura of discipline and summary executes units within 6" that fail leadership. Make infantry much more implacable and disciplined.

Tempestor Prime Command Squad (Tempestus detachment): allow Scions as troop choices, also no ridiculously overpriced book with 5 units.

Some or all of these would really allow IG commanders to field more tactically varied armies without going to the allies table.

 vipoid wrote:
As a question, what 'real' HQ choices would you like to see?

Honestly curious here, as I'm far from an expert on IG fluff, so I don't know what else they could add.

Well, for one?
We could go back to having different "ranks" of Senior Officers.
Captains, Colonels, and Generals--each with their own different perks that they bring to the field.

Expanded retinue options--these guys shouldn't be traveling around with four guys. They should have at least a full 10 man squad with them at all times.
White Dwarf #306 from July 2005 had some great stuff in there regarding this. It was called "Imperial Guard High Command Headquarters Group". It consisted of a High Commander and a personal staff of 4-11 aides, chosen from a list of 5 different types.
You had Grenadier Bodyguards(Stormtroopers in all but name), 0-3 Servitor Bodyguards, Veterans, Guardsmen, and Orderlies.

Orderlies themselves consisted of 6 different types.
Staff Officers--Every squad with a Vox-Caster came with a Scanner. Additionally, if you have two Staff Officers then the result of any Barrage Scatter dice could be rerolled once per turn. If you had three--you could reroll failed Reserves rolls.
Master Astropaths--Effectively this guy brought "Mind War" for the Imperium. The Master Astropath and the Psyker attempting to use a power each rolled a D6+Leadership. If the Astropath beat the opposing model's score, then it was nullified and may not be used that turn. You could not use Psychic Hoods and the Master Astropath's ability on the same attempt to cancel out a Psyker ability.
Scribe Historicus--A single Scribe Historicus granted Counterattack to the Headquarters Group. More than one Scribe Historicus meant that all Imperial Guard units with a model within 12" of a Scribe Historicus benefited from Counterattack as the men of the Guard fight all the harder to ensure that their deeds live on in myth.
Batman--If the High Commander suffers a Wound, he may allocate the Wound to a Batman. It had to be done before any saving throws are attempted.
Sage--A single Sage granted +1 BS to the High Commander. If there was more than one Sage, you could reroll a failed roll to hit during the Shooting Phase but you had to accept the second result.
Pastor--Granted Stubborn.

4 Guardsmen could take special weapons, Veterans could have two models upgraded to a Medic and Standard Bearer, and Grenadiers brought a 10 point 4+ BS4 Hellgun to the Headquarters Group.

The High Commander himself allowed for any IG unit within 12" to use his Leadership value for Morale and Leadership tests as long as he wasn't in CC, falling back, or pinned.
He also allowed for Guard units to use his Leadership for target priority rolls(which isn't a thing anymore--but something could be put in lieu of this).

Additionally? The High Command Headquarters Group wasn't able to be taken as your "mandatory" HQ choice. It was a separate entity but could still benefit from Doctrines and Advisors.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Batman--If the High Commander suffers a Wound, he may allocate the Wound to a Batman. It had to be done before any saving throws are attempted.

Wow. I think Kurze just beat Alpharius at the sneaky game.

 Ignatius wrote:

Couldn't disagree more with all of this. Commissars have always been a huge part of the Imperial Guard background. Removing them would be like removing Chaplains from the Space Marines.

Oh please. You could remove Lord Commissars and the only people who would be upset are those who thought that Lord Commissars were the only way to represent Gaunt or Cain.

I also don't understand why you are so dead set on removing units from the codex. It's like whenever anything in the codex differs from your personal interpretation of the universe and faction then it doesn't belong. We had this same discussion in regards to Rough Riders.

No, it's when anything in the Codex is an antiquated holdout kept in to appease grognards that it "doesn't belong".

The Guard should have seen a drastic overhaul years ago. Skitarii are what the Guard should have been.

Anyways Commissars are imperative to blob guard functioning properly and would be devastating to me to lose.

Good thing my statement was:

Commissars as an actual unit are unnecessary at this juncture. Add them as an upgrade to a Squad and be done with it. No "Lord Commissars", none of this trash. Get fething rid of them.

Removing them as an HQ choice doesn't hurt your precious "blob guard". It just means that you don't get IC status for them.

I play mostly CC blob guard centered around large amounts of infantry, Rougb Riders, and deep striking Scions. The last few codecies have made my armies a little worse with each edition and I'm worried a new one will further push them down.

And I played Grenadier Guard centered around Chimeras and Kasrkin models.

What's your point?

Rough Riders have NEVER been good. That simply comes down to, as we discussed before, the fact that they're a holdout unit that should have been taken out of the book several editions ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Batman--If the High Commander suffers a Wound, he may allocate the Wound to a Batman. It had to be done before any saving throws are attempted.

Wow. I think Kurze just beat Alpharius at the sneaky game.

Wikipedia wrote:A batman (or batwoman) is a soldier or airman assigned to a commissioned officer as a personal servant. Before the advent of motorized transport, an officer's batman was also in charge of the officer's "bat-horse" that carried the pack saddle with his officer's kit during a campaign.

The U.K. English term is derived from the obsolete bat, meaning "pack saddle" (from French bât, from Old French bast, from Late Latin bastum), and man.

A batman's duties often include:

acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
digging the officer's foxhole in combat, giving the officer time to direct his unit[1]
other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

The action of serving as a batman was referred to as "batting". In armies where officers typically came from the upper class, it was not unusual for a former batman to follow the officer into later civilian life as a domestic servant.

Huh.

But why would you want that when you could have Bruce Wayne instead?

The suggestions in this thread have transcended from constructive improvements to the codex, to wish-listing/penis-envy of other factions.

Imperial Guard don't need snowflake rules that allow them to escape or avoid melee- if a guardsmen unit gets caught in melee it deserves to die; that's the price you pay for having one of the cheapest troops choices in the game.

If you don't want your important units in melee then use the tools already available in the codex to prevent that from happening- historically this means tarpitting. Ogryns, sentinels and blobs are all designed to intercept and tie-up enemy units long enough for your damage-dealers to get the job done; conscripts and sentinels do this fairly well while ogryns do not, but that isn't especially hard to fix.

Drop ogryns down to 25ppm and make them ld10 (or fearless, I'd prefer the former). 75 points of ogryns will statistically hold up 120 points of boyz or 175 points of wraiths in melee for ~a turn and a half if they counter-charge. Give bullgryns a similar points drop and add the caveat that the 5+ invuln shield turns any charge against the bullgryns into a disordered charge and you're pretty much golden. If sentinels gained a 12'' move the Guard would have some of the best screening units in the game.

Well spoken.

 BlaxicanX wrote:


If you don't want your important units in melee then use the tools already available in the codex to prevent that from happening- historically this means tarpitting. Ogryns, sentinels and blobs are all designed to intercept and tie-up enemy units long enough for your damage-dealers to get the job done; conscripts and sentinels do this fairly well while ogryns do not, but that isn't especially hard to fix.

Sentinels are NOT "designed to intercept and tie-up enemy units". They're not Dreadnoughts. Their whole schtick is to provide a mobile firing platform for heavy weapons at a reasonable points cost.

Drop ogryns down to 25ppm and make them ld10 (or fearless, I'd prefer the former). 75 points of ogryns will statistically hold up 120 points of boyz or 175 points of wraiths in melee for ~a turn and a half if they counter-charge. Give bullgryns a similar points drop and add the caveat that the 5+ invuln shield turns any charge against the bullgryns into a disordered charge and you're pretty much golden. If sentinels gained a 12'' move the Guard would have some of the best screening units in the game.

Bullgryn need to be able to Overwatch their Grenadier Gauntlets. It's stupid that they cannot do so.

If we're discussing more controversial theoretical changes, can we ditch the vendetta as it currently stands? Leave the Valk alone as a troop transport with some guns, and put the triple lascannon weaponry on the vulture as a dedicated gunboat.

 Blacksails wrote:
If we're discussing more controversial theoretical changes, can we ditch the vendetta as it currently stands? Leave the Valk alone as a troop transport with some guns, and put the triple lascannon weaponry on the vulture as a dedicated gunboat.

Yeah. The Vendetta is like the Stormraven (or indeed the Tactical Marine) - it does multiple things, but that works against it instead of for it.

I just don't like it from a fluff perspective.

And yeah, the role is confusing, which also bothers me.

Leave the gunshipping to the gunships.

It would also look dope as feth yo.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Couldn't disagree more with all of this. Commissars have always been a huge part of the Imperial Guard background. Removing them would be like removing Chaplains from the Space Marines.

Oh please. You could remove Lord Commissars and the only people who would be upset are those who thought that Lord Commissars were the only way to represent Gaunt or Cain. And they were right. As were all the people who didn't want command squads, or had invented their own special Commissar.

I also don't understand why you are so dead set on removing units from the codex. It's like whenever anything in the codex differs from your personal interpretation of the universe and faction then it doesn't belong. We had this same discussion in regards to Rough Riders.

No, it's when anything in the Codex is an antiquated holdout kept in to appease grognards that it "doesn't belong". Except it does belong. It's hard to find a thing on the IG that rejects Commissars as a standard-issue support personnel.

The Guard should have seen a drastic overhaul years ago. Skitarii are what the Guard should have been.Skitarii are humand in the Admech. The IG are WW1/WW2 with a bit of Nuclear Age mixed in. Hence Commissars.

Anyways Commissars are imperative to blob guard functioning properly and would be devastating to me to lose.

Good thing my statement was:

Commissars as an actual unit are unnecessary at this juncture. Add them as an upgrade to a Squad and be done with it. No "Lord Commissars", none of this trash. Get fething rid of them.

Removing them as an HQ choice doesn't hurt your precious "blob guard". It just means that you don't get IC status for them. It does, as it means you cannot have both Blob Squad and Conscript Blob. And reduces the statline. And options. And forces you to take an /extra/ HQ.

I play mostly CC blob guard centered around large amounts of infantry, Rougb Riders, and deep striking Scions. The last few codecies have made my armies a little worse with each edition and I'm worried a new one will further push them down.

And I played Grenadier Guard centered around Chimeras and Kasrkin models.

What's your point?

Rough Riders have NEVER been good. That simply comes down to, as we discussed before, the fact that they're a holdout unit that should have been taken out of the book several editions ago. A unit being bad does not mean it should be removed. Decades of supporting fluff and design thematics aside, the Rough Riders just need a rules rewrite, not an entry removal. You don't see nid players arguing that Carnifexes should be removed, just because they are crap.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:


If you don't want your important units in melee then use the tools already available in the codex to prevent that from happening- historically this means tarpitting. Ogryns, sentinels and blobs are all designed to intercept and tie-up enemy units long enough for your damage-dealers to get the job done; conscripts and sentinels do this fairly well while ogryns do not, but that isn't especially hard to fix.

Sentinels are NOT "designed to intercept and tie-up enemy units". They're not Dreadnoughts. Their whole schtick is to provide a mobile firing platform for heavy weapons at a reasonable points cost.

That may not be their prime directive, no, but the armored sentinel is one of the most cost-effective tarpits in the game. It costs half as much as a dreadnought despite having the same front AV, which means as a walker that any melee unit lacking the capability of denting AV12 is screwed.

They're actually better at tying units up in melee then they are at fire-support, frankly. 30 points for a single BS3 weapon on an AV10 chassis is garbage.

 Blacksails wrote:
If we're discussing more controversial theoretical changes, can we ditch the vendetta as it currently stands? Leave the Valk alone as a troop transport with some guns, and put the triple lascannon weaponry on the vulture as a dedicated gunboat.

The funny part is the Vulture as a dedicated gunboat can't even get "triple lascannons"...

It comes standard with:
1x nose-mounted Heavy Bolter
One twin-linked multi-laser on a set of wing hardpoints
Two Hellstrike Missiles on the other set of wing hardpoints.

The twin-linked multi-laser can be replaced by twin-linked Autocannon, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Multiple Rocket Pods.
The Hellstrikes can be replaced by Hellfury Missiles x2, Hunter-Killer Missiles x6, Tactical Bombs x6, and a pair of Multiple Rocket Pods.
Alternatively you can replace both of those for a twin-linked Punisher Gatling Cannon at the low, low price of 50 flippin' points.

Ashiraya wrote:Yeah. The Vendetta is like the Stormraven (or indeed the Tactical Marine) - it does multiple things, but that works against it instead of for it.

Simply put, the Stormraven makes sense for the Space Marines. They need their vehicles to be able to do multiple things since they can't just call for the next wave.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They need their vehicles to be able to do multiple things since they can't just call for the next wave.

That's why they have a cheap extremely fragile tank as their main transport?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is the Vulture as a dedicated gunboat can't even get "triple lascannons"...

Which is, presumably, why he suggested that it is added.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They need their vehicles to be able to do multiple things since they can't just call for the next wave.

That's why they have a cheap extremely fragile tank as their main transport?

Don't dis the Rhino, I have serious difficulty killing them.

Joking aside, I actually do.

Haven't killed one since 5E, despite having fought dozens. With LRBT's and Vendettas. And Melta Bombs.

I have terribad Anti-Armour rolls.

 Selym wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They need their vehicles to be able to do multiple things since they can't just call for the next wave.

That's why they have a cheap extremely fragile tank as their main transport?

Don't dis the Rhino, I have serious difficulty killing them.

Joking aside, I actually do.

Haven't killed one since 5E, despite having fought dozens. With LRBT's and Vendettas. And Melta Bombs.

I have terribad Anti-Armour rolls.

Could you come over to my place and roll my morale checks? Please?

 Kanluwen wrote:

The funny part is the Vulture as a dedicated gunboat can't even get "triple lascannons"...

It comes standard with:
1x nose-mounted Heavy Bolter
One twin-linked multi-laser on a set of wing hardpoints
Two Hellstrike Missiles on the other set of wing hardpoints.

The twin-linked multi-laser can be replaced by twin-linked Autocannon, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Multiple Rocket Pods.
The Hellstrikes can be replaced by Hellfury Missiles x2, Hunter-Killer Missiles x6, Tactical Bombs x6, and a pair of Multiple Rocket Pods.
Alternatively you can replace both of those for a twin-linked Punisher Gatling Cannon at the low, low price of 50 flippin' points.

Oh, I know, that's what I'm saying. Add in a triple TL lascannon loadout.

What's wierd is that the Valk kit doesn't even include the Lascannon bitz for a Vendetta - it's just a Transport with anti-Infantry systems. Or missiles.

Seems to me that a Vulture/Vendetta 2-in-1 gunship kit would make more sense.

Although converting a Valk into an AC-130 isn't a bad idea...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They need their vehicles to be able to do multiple things since they can't just call for the next wave.

That's why they have a cheap extremely fragile tank as their main transport?

Don't dis the Rhino, I have serious difficulty killing them.

Joking aside, I actually do.

Haven't killed one since 5E, despite having fought dozens. With LRBT's and Vendettas. And Melta Bombs.

I have terribad Anti-Armour rolls.

Could you come over to my place and roll my morale checks? Please?

Ok, now I need the get new dice. Having tried to think of any time where I've failed morale on my IG, excluding modifiers from assault.

Ima roll my dice a few times.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's wierd is that the Valk kit doesn't even include the Lascannon bitz for a Vendetta - it's just a Transport with anti-Infantry systems. Or missiles.

Yup. Because the Vendetta was something FW intended to ONLY be for the Elysians---they looked at the US Airborne during Vietnam, where an uparmed Huey "Hog" would fly mixed in with the transports to provide a bit more "oomph" at the actual landing zones while the Cobras would deal with essentially 'locking down' the perimeters of the landing zones.

Seems to me that a Vulture/Vendetta 2-in-1 gunship kit would make more sense.

Honestly, at this point? It's not happening unless they drastically redesign the Vulture. The Vulture kit is more resin than plastic. It uses the wing assemblies and the pilot. Everything else is resin.

And by "drastically redesign", I mean them butchering a slick design like they did with the Manticore and to an extent the Hydra.

Although converting a Valk into an AC-130 isn't a bad idea...

"Redemption Corps" had some absurd Valkyrie "Spectre" variant that somehow had enough room in it to house an Earthshaker Cannon and several Centaur transports.

It's pretty easy to differentiate what we want from Flyers. IG needs:

- Transport
- Close air support (brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!!)
- Air Superiority

Gunships will be too busy hunting to mess around with troop transport, the Valk and Vulture have very clear uses. It'd be nice to see the Vendetta with a clearer role rather simply sold as than "3-TL Lascannons on a flyer".

I don't have much to add except I think all the cool FW flyers (Avenger, T-bolt, Lightning) belong in the FA slot and not the HS slot.

Maybe the Lightning works in Fast Attack(it's an interceptor not a ground support vehicle), but the Avenger and Thunderbolt both definitely are HS.

There is nothing wrong with the Vendetta being a 3 TL Lascannon Flyer in the gunship role. Nothing at all.

Though I would be totally OK with the Thunderbolt replacing the Vendetta. Or a 3-in-1 Vulture-based kit that covers Thunderbolt / Vendetta / Vulture armament.