Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Another Captain Smashypants for your enjoyment.

I'm currently assembling my Sanguinary Guard and I see that their are only 3 Encarmine Swords in the box. I definitely think that the sword is better than the axe, but is it worth having a few guys in a blob of 10 having a power fist? They are the same points cost.

The axe is extremely useful vs T8 and T5. I wouldn't overlook it. Just my experiences.

In other news, I beat Mechanicus 19-1 in ITC combined arms No Mercy. Maelstrom was 7-5 and No Mercy was 57-33. MVP goes to Capt Baby Hammer (no warlord trait), Redemptor dread and reivers. Be aware that the chicken walkers and electropriests are really nasty.

 Red Comet wrote:
I'm currently assembling my Sanguinary Guard and I see that their are only 3 Encarmine Swords in the box. I definitely think that the sword is better than the axe, but is it worth having a few guys in a blob of 10 having a power fist? They are the same points cost.

I plan on running 3x swords, 1x fist, and 1x axe in my 5 man unit, with the Sanguinary Ancient running a Power fist or possibly an axe. I haven't decided for sure on that yet.

But yea, swords are the majority with axes and power fists mixed into the squad in equal measure. That's the plan, anyway.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

My SG have 6 fists and 4 swords. Axes at 16 points is a fail in my eyes. The whole gamut of melee weapons for SG should have been priced the same. SG lacking weapon options in the box and some crappy weapon poses make that kit pretty mediocre in my opinion. Glad I’m done with them 3 boxes later lol.

My Ancient also runs a fist; fist intimidates the type of units hunting for him more than a D3 damage power sword does.

How does the Ancient protect the SG?

 Primark G wrote:
How does the Ancient protect the SG?

You run the Standard of Sacrifice relic on the ancient, which grants +1 Leadership, reroll 1's to wound (The regular SG Ancient banner effects). Plus, it grants a 5+ save versus any unsaved wound as well as the regular aura effects, with the notation that the standard of sacrifice doesn't effect units with the Black Rage. So your SG get their normal 2+ armor save (Modified by AP, but usually they're going to be rolling a 3+ to a 5+ at most if they're hit with anything that hits hard. Then they get the second 5+ save from the standard. It makes them fairly tough, considering they're 2 wounds each.)

Hopefully that explains things a bit better. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Thanks!

 Red Comet wrote:
I'm currently assembling my Sanguinary Guard and I see that their are only 3 Encarmine Swords in the box. I definitely think that the sword is better than the axe, but is it worth having a few guys in a blob of 10 having a power fist? They are the same points cost.

Fists are good if you can keep them near the Warlord to provide you rerolls as that mitigates the -1 to Hit.

Martel732 wrote:The axe is extremely useful vs T8 and T5. I wouldn't overlook it. Just my experiences.

Yeah from the math I've done it's only useful in those situations. In most cases I'm not having my SG go toe to toe with them.

Red__Thirst wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
I'm currently assembling my Sanguinary Guard and I see that their are only 3 Encarmine Swords in the box. I definitely think that the sword is better than the axe, but is it worth having a few guys in a blob of 10 having a power fist? They are the same points cost.

I plan on running 3x swords, 1x fist, and 1x axe in my 5 man unit, with the Sanguinary Ancient running a Power fist or possibly an axe. I haven't decided for sure on that yet.

But yea, swords are the majority with axes and power fists mixed into the squad in equal measure. That's the plan, anyway.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Sounds like a good mix.

Bremon wrote:My SG have 6 fists and 4 swords. Axes at 16 points is a fail in my eyes. The whole gamut of melee weapons for SG should have been priced the same. SG lacking weapon options in the box and some crappy weapon poses make that kit pretty mediocre in my opinion. Glad I’m done with them 3 boxes later lol.

My Ancient also runs a fist; fist intimidates the type of units hunting for him more than a D3 damage power sword does.

I hadn't thought of that for the Ancient. I already assembled him with a sword, but maybe I'll make another with a fist and see how it goes.

Karhedron wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
I'm currently assembling my Sanguinary Guard and I see that their are only 3 Encarmine Swords in the box. I definitely think that the sword is better than the axe, but is it worth having a few guys in a blob of 10 having a power fist? They are the same points cost.

Fists are good if you can keep them near the Warlord to provide you rerolls as that mitigates the -1 to Hit.

That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of that to be honest. I feel like I'll end up throwing in two powerfists into my 10 man blob and leave the rest with swords.

I've found that sometimes I'm stuck going into T8 whether i want to or not. They shouldn't cost what they cost, but I just deal with it. I've found that sometimes scrimping points bites me in the rear.

Hey all, Eldar player here...moving out to my other armies. Not into the Nids yet and will wait for the DE book to drop....so I'm dusting off my Blood Angels successor chaptor.

Just read the codex and the cards.

Just looking for some advice.

I have

1 Land Raider Crusader
1 Razorback
1 Rhino
1 Drop Pod

quite a few PDF units (IG / AM)

rough numbers here:

Jump pack units

Chaplain
Captain
Librarian
5 vets
5 assault x2

Foot troops

10 Termies half with TH + SS and Half with twin LCs
10 man tac x2
5 man devastator x2
Tech marine
Termie Captain
Termie Librarian

Unassembled starter Primaris stuff
Unpainted Apothocary with jump pack
Unpainted Tech Marine/character with TH + Jump Pack

ideas or thoughts.

thanks a bunch.

Checking back in right quick, I got to proxy a bit of the death company jig in a game with a friend this weekend. You know, a try before you buy type deal.

My list was a Sister's Battalion with Dominion and Seraphim support, and the death company vanguard detachment proposed earlier.

The map was a little tough sledding with terrain, but the jump packs were pretty handy for mitigating that. I put two squads of Death Company on the table, and held back Captain Hammer, Lemartes, and the third Death Company Squad.

Done in true "I'm not a blood angel player" fashion, I neglected to spend the CP to pre-game move a death company unit, but it ended up being fine. I slow-played my Seraphim as well, and lost first turn, so most of the first turn was the two of us jockeying for position on the table. I did remember to give Captain Hammer the Black Rage as well as the Relic wings.

I pretty much used the Death Company as a really expensive distraction that couldn't be tuned out, using them to smash screens and a couple of melee support units my opponent kept to protect his rear line. They made quite a mess of things while not being very efficient at it. The units they hit were guard-like (Renegade and Heretics), and were way outclassed in strength and points by the Death Company... but those guys sure wade their way through those disposable bodies nicely. The Death Company also made enough noise to pull those rear line intercept units into them, which exposed a flank very nicely to a rumbling Immolator packed with melta Dominions that turned the parking lot into a slag heap pretty quick (with the help of the Seraphim who jumped over the carnage).

All-in-all, it was a bit closer of a game than we were previously used to. When I used the IG detachment of flamer tanks, they would clear screens and such as well, but the Catachan rules made them hyper effective and reliable, and didn't leave my opponents feeling too happy to face it again. Death Company felt a little more streaky and reliant on rolling dice, but it was also a bit more fun, and made my "in your face" army more of a "down your throat" army... because it somehow managed to be MORE in the opponent's face early on.

More importantly, while the battle went away from my friend, he enjoyed the game more than IG Infantry screens and landmines (aka Hellhounds). It also drastically changed the way my army played, and that was the whole goal. We both had a great time. I'll probably end up trying to get this detachment in my army full time, which means you guys just sold some more minis for GW. Way to keep the hobby going at least for another day

Thanks again!

So I hear people say that marines are kinda not competitive now except for Blood Angels. What makes BA good compared to vanilla?

Is it the special characters

or the relics.

If it is the latter would you suggest giving up Successor and just run pure BA?

 admironheart wrote:
So I hear people say that marines are kinda not competitive now except for Blood Angels. What makes BA good compared to vanilla?

Is it the special characters

or the relics.

If it is the latter would you suggest giving up Successor and just run pure BA?

I think the majority of what makes BA good is the fact that they have truly dedicated CC units (with average shooting to boot) backed by a very strong ability - The Red Thirst.

The best part about the red thirst is the fact that it can greatly enhance the CC capabilities of units that aren't necessarily kitted to be CC monsters, giving us tactical flexibility and the option of not having to kit everything out to the fullest to get the most out of them.

Back that up with some of the BEST HQ choices (named) and some really fancy & fluffy stratagems that mesh well with our goal of CC and you have an army that really feels like it has a true purpose and a way of achieving it.

This also makes us quite an attractive choice as a CC oriented allied detachment to other more shooty imperial armies.

In short I think these are our strengths and weaknesses (in no particular order), feel free to agree or disagree below

STRENGTHS:
Named Characters (Mephiston, Lemartes) w/ the inclusion of slamguinius (hes basically a named character now right?)
Stratagems
Abilities (Red Thirst mostly but Black Rage as well)
BA Specific CC units
Relics/Warlord Traits (I tend to believe the BA ones are above average and fit well with what we want to accomplish)

WEAKNESSES:
Expense (named characters and CC dedicated units get expensive quick)
Shooting (Not that it is significantly weaker than other SM chapters, but when you want to dedicate so much to your CC units you inevitably don't have as much strong shooting)
Psychic Spells (We have 2-3 good ones, the others are so-so at best)

We also tend to encounter what I like to call Alpha Strike Syndrome. Most of our best lists are centered around a strong alpha strike, however we tend to "blow our load" turn 1 or 2 on that strike, after that depending upon the damage that was inflicted on our alpha strike, our strongest units can tend to get left in the open and decimated in the enemy response. After that it is a slow death (at least my experience so far).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the whole successor chapter nonsense. I think it is an absolute shame that GW decided to do it this way. Quite honestly, so long as you are playing in a friendly competitive environment, I would simply ask your opponent if they will allow you to use the other relics with your successor chapter.

I know I run Flesh Tearers and that is was I plan to do with my friends. Granted i'm not running Gabriel Seth (at least not yet)

I still think the biggest strength of BA is mobility and ability to put so many points in deep strike. Alpha strikes are easily neutered by screens, especially if the enemy has infiltrators. The game to me is more about tearing apart the chaff screens and then popping descent when the true target is exposed.

I think the "competitiveness" of BA will do down a LOT once players have more practice against them.

Keeping my most valuable stuff in reserve to deep strike (upwards of half my army) has done a ton to mitigate the sadness of going second. Very different than losing my best toys first turn before they’ve done anything.

Bremon wrote:
Keeping my most valuable stuff in reserve to deep strike (upwards of half my army) has done a ton to mitigate the sadness of going second. Very different than losing my best toys first turn before they’ve done anything.

Yeah, the fact we can keep most of our heavy hitters off the table to mitigate the alpha strike has been a huge factor in my games. People are pretty terrified of my Death Company plus Lemartes and Angel's Wing Librarian.

Also, Rhinos are pretty decent at keeping your units alive through an alpha strike, and if the Rhinos survive, they are great at charging units to tie them up or eat Overwatch. I keep all 4 of my Combi-Plasma/Plasma Tac squads in 2 Rhinos. I am rarely dissapointed by either of them.

So I'm working on a concept for my death company, looking at it as a 2 pronged approach so to speak.

Firstly, is Lemartes + a jump pack squad of DC. Planning on it being 10 to 11 models, likely 10, with mostly bolt pistols and chain swords, with one power sword/bolt pistol, one powerfist/bolter, and one Thunder Hammer in the squad. I may also include one plasma pistol in here, but I want them to be a bit limited on upgrades since they have the added cost of Jump Packs added on.

Secondly, a 10 to 11 man (again, likely gonna keep it at 10) squad with bolters across the board, and chain swords, with a few more upgrades in here. Likely a power axe (or sword, or both..) a Power Fist and another Thunder Hammer. They will not have jump packs, but will instead either arrive with a Drop Pod or ride in a rhino (lower point games) or deploy out of a storm raven along side a death company dreadnought (higher point games).

I have an alternate idea for this second squad though, and it will make them more expensive, but the concept makes me giggle, so I'm seriously considering it.

Instead of shooting for 20 bolter rounds, I'm considering running this non jump pack squad with 9 plasma pistols and chainswords, with a power fist and/or thunder hammer mixed in, and forgoing the power sword/power axe to conserve points. Let them pile out next to something big, Have my Captain land within 6" of them overcharge, and drop 9+ plasma pistol shots in, rerolling 1's. Target something big I want to hurt (Hive Tyrant, Tank, etc) and then charge in with Lemartes supporting with the other 10 man jump pack unit.

Nine plasma pistols increases the squad's cost by 63 points, totaling up to 249 points with one Thunder Hammer thrown in. It's pretty substantial, but I'm already running a storm raven, so they have a delivery system already present.

Would just running bolters be the better option? Dealing with Chaff is nice, but being able to reliably put upwards of 14 wounds (ideally) into a target seems fun, and will definitely make my opponent re-evaluate which death company squad to prioritize killing. Do you hit the jump pack squad with more melee focus, or do you hit the foot slogging plasma squad?

Just spitballing mostly. Take it easy folks.

-Red__Thirst-

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Checking back in right quick, I got to proxy a bit of the death company jig in a game with a friend this weekend. You know, a try before you buy type deal.

My list was a Sister's Battalion with Dominion and Seraphim support, and the death company vanguard detachment proposed earlier.

The map was a little tough sledding with terrain, but the jump packs were pretty handy for mitigating that. I put two squads of Death Company on the table, and held back Captain Hammer, Lemartes, and the third Death Company Squad.

Done in true "I'm not a blood angel player" fashion, I neglected to spend the CP to pre-game move a death company unit, but it ended up being fine. I slow-played my Seraphim as well, and lost first turn, so most of the first turn was the two of us jockeying for position on the table. I did remember to give Captain Hammer the Black Rage as well as the Relic wings.

I pretty much used the Death Company as a really expensive distraction that couldn't be tuned out, using them to smash screens and a couple of melee support units my opponent kept to protect his rear line. They made quite a mess of things while not being very efficient at it. The units they hit were guard-like (Renegade and Heretics), and were way outclassed in strength and points by the Death Company... but those guys sure wade their way through those disposable bodies nicely. The Death Company also made enough noise to pull those rear line intercept units into them, which exposed a flank very nicely to a rumbling Immolator packed with melta Dominions that turned the parking lot into a slag heap pretty quick (with the help of the Seraphim who jumped over the carnage).

All-in-all, it was a bit closer of a game than we were previously used to. When I used the IG detachment of flamer tanks, they would clear screens and such as well, but the Catachan rules made them hyper effective and reliable, and didn't leave my opponents feeling too happy to face it again. Death Company felt a little more streaky and reliant on rolling dice, but it was also a bit more fun, and made my "in your face" army more of a "down your throat" army... because it somehow managed to be MORE in the opponent's face early on.

More importantly, while the battle went away from my friend, he enjoyed the game more than IG Infantry screens and landmines (aka Hellhounds). It also drastically changed the way my army played, and that was the whole goal. We both had a great time. I'll probably end up trying to get this detachment in my army full time, which means you guys just sold some more minis for GW. Way to keep the hobby going at least for another day

Thanks again!

What was your list with the hellhounds? Were they artemis FW ones? I have been looking heavily into building a list with hellhounds to handle screens.

I've been running a 10 man Death Company squad with 4 Thunder Hammers and 1 Power Fist (I have the model...I would run another Thunder Hammer if I had one built) with great success. With Lemartes nearby, they pretty much smash any and everything...

Results vary if Lemartes isn't around to give his reroll, but I can still expect said unit to kill one tank and put a hurt on another I've multi-charged (if able).

Because the unit usually dies to shooting afterward, I'm thinking of changing things up. I really ONLY need the Thunder Hammers, so 2 (or even 3) smaller units of 6 Death Company with 3 TH would be interesting to try out. Having the abilty to drop in a Death Company squad to blitz a flank the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd turn may overcome how neutered I feel after my initial drop assault. It'll cost 6 command points, which is a lot....

Out of breaktime. *waves*

I'm still not so sure about DC. They need lemartes, or at least a chaplain, as a babysitter. They hit hard, if they make the charge. At 20 pts. per model with JP they are not exactly cheap. They die quite easily, 6+ FNP is better than nothing, but not great either. Leadership 7 is ok, but because they die quite easily, its likely some will run, even with lemartes buffing it to 9. If lemartes doesnt make the charge, he cant buff them, and stands alone, vulnerable to attacks. I used to say that a 15 model unit is whats best, but after some games i think something in the range 7-9 is better, because of morale. Losing 7-9 models from a 15 model unit means the rest will flee.

My first Blood Angel list (successor chaptor but using BA)

These models are currently glued this way so not much options.



So is my math ok?

Are the inclusion of the index versions of the units with jump packs legal ( I think they are...just want to check)

I have about 2k more units but most of those points are in termies or land raider crusader and 2 devastator squads.

Also what are the stratagems to utilize?

Armoury of Baal is in the list....would like to use Death Vision sof Sanguinius somewhere.
Wisdom of the Ancients,Upon Wings of Fire, Descent of Angels, Red Rampage, Honour of the Chaptor,Only in Death does Duty end seem like the most likely.

 p5freak wrote:
I'm still not so sure about DC. They need lemartes, or at least a chaplain, as a babysitter. They hit hard, if they make the charge. At 20 pts. per model with JP they are not exactly cheap. They die quite easily, 6+ FNP is better than nothing, but not great either. Leadership 7 is ok, but because they die quite easily, its likely some will run, even with lemartes buffing it to 9. If lemartes doesnt make the charge, he cant buff them, and stands alone, vulnerable to attacks. I used to say that a 15 model unit is whats best, but after some games i think something in the range 7-9 is better, because of morale. Losing 7-9 models from a 15 model unit means the rest will flee.

15 men need Astorath. Or a heroic bearing warlord.

Martel732 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I'm still not so sure about DC. They need lemartes, or at least a chaplain, as a babysitter. They hit hard, if they make the charge. At 20 pts. per model with JP they are not exactly cheap. They die quite easily, 6+ FNP is better than nothing, but not great either. Leadership 7 is ok, but because they die quite easily, its likely some will run, even with lemartes buffing it to 9. If lemartes doesnt make the charge, he cant buff them, and stands alone, vulnerable to attacks. I used to say that a 15 model unit is whats best, but after some games i think something in the range 7-9 is better, because of morale. Losing 7-9 models from a 15 model unit means the rest will flee.

15 men need Astorath. Or a heroic bearing warlord.

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of running smaller squads...that and the larger squad size just isn't really needed. For example, I recently had my 10man DC squad one shot a full health Mortarion and I only rolled the Thunder Hammers and Power Fist. The 5 chainswords didn't have to swing... Afterwords, they all die to shooting or whatever.

If I only brought the Thunderhammers and a few extra DC bodies to eat potential overwatch, I feel I can make the rest of my list more efficient, or, I can bring another similar DC unit to deep strike in the following turn and smash something else that is now exposed.

I know he's not as sexy as Lemartes, but I still really like Astorath. Stands up to snipers much better.

Radikus wrote:

What was your list with the hellhounds? Were they artemis FW ones? I have been looking heavily into building a list with hellhounds to handle screens.

Usually ran 2x Catachan Hellhounds and a Devildog along side my 2x Immolators, giving me 4 2d6 Str 6 -1AP Flamers at the fore of my army. The Hellhounds move a little slower than the Immolators, because they don't have Dominions giving them a pregame move, but they make up for it with 16" on their main guns, and rerolls for one of the dice for the flamers. It really normalized my 2d6 rolls into something like 8+ hits per Hellhound.

They're not going to obliterate a massive unit of chaff in 1 go, but they'll easily put the unit into a morale hole, so it dictates a bit of the movement and spacing of the enemy army.

Really, the Death Company hit squads seem to do about the same... they're a lot more fragile, but they can put bigger holes into chaff units clogging the board. I just find the Death Company to be a bit more streaky with dice rolls. I've only had one game with them so far, but they really helped and provided a bigger threat footprint for my opponent to wade through. They actually enabled my Dominions in their Immolator to sneak around to hit a soft flank of tanks. I don't know if any of you have played Sororitas, but Dominions are about as anti-sneaky as you can get, and for Death Company to hike up their priority over the Dominions means that they definitely made a mess.

And heck, it is some kind of fun to smash 14 Death Company into 10 Chaos Cultists with a big old grin. Totally not worth it, but oddly satisfying, a definitely in the "distraction carnifex" territory.

I feel Death Company has some value there. The shock value of getting hit with 4xModels chainsword attacks and a few Thunderhammer hits for added umph and watching some of their chaff screens completely vanish can change up the play style of an unsavvy opponent and open them up to some positioning errors. I kept two squads on the table and a third with both HQs in reserve, as kind of a threat, which kept my opponent a bit more bottled up than he probably wanted to be. He didn't want to give me easy access to his parking lot, so he wasn't as cavalier with moving out of his deployment space while I was holding all that in reserve.

It was either all of that junk I just typed above... or he knew that my army is very "in your face" and figured that moving out was pointless, I'd be there soon enough either way.

Fun times in either scenario.

Asking about the hellhounds though does make me interested in toying around with Death Company + Catachan flame tanks. Rush in the DC and then use the Hellhounds to fire over them and vaporize any cheap, cheap chaff that you don't want to waste DC assaults on (hi, Cultists, we meet again... and also 5 man scout/ranger squads). I'll toy around with that next. I just bought my first two boxes of Death Company today, so apparently I am in for this ride! I will say this, though: acquiring a blood angel's captain with a jump pack is an exercise. That's some black rage level of frustration at the store inquiring about that model.

My first outing vs Nurgle. My guard ally got bloodied hard but we carried the day on VPs

Typhus went down easy to Capt Slammy.

My problem was that too many guys could not all get the benefit of the bubbles

I had Captain
Lieutenant
Sanguinary Priest
Company Ancient

The Sanguinary + Red Thirst + Lieutenant made me just laugh at the Plague Marines....First game that has happened and Ive been playing this guy since 2nd ed.

My thoughts to keep Capt Slamguinius alive.

What about drop pods of company Veterans? There would be a lot of wounds to soak up.

I also have a handful of Vets with Jump Packs...but only 1 unit of all my stuff made the charge with the Capt Slammy.

In any army with real shooting and not hordes of Poxwalkers a couple guys will still get eaten alive with the Capt.

Do units have to exit the drop pod? Was thinking turn 1 drop the pod...keep the guys inside. Turn 2 drop Capt Slammy and then rush the guys forward to keep him in good company.

Drop pods are awful, dont use them. Wasted points. Company vets can use JP. Units have to leave a drop pod right after deepstriking.

Drop pods have one use: making non-jump units immune to alpha strike. I can't get grav cannons or lascannons on jump troops. Drop pods have a role, but I'd never use more than one.

"Do units have to exit the drop pod?"

Yes, they do.