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Martel, you can't say that players like Stephen Box or Thomas Hegstrom don't know their ropes. They both use the DC very effectively and do well with BA in competitive meta.

I agree with Martel here actually. So much so that I sold mine.

I also don't think he's saying they are not useable as we all know they are. However it's only their shock value that's any good even those guys will admit they rarely get their points back and some of us beleive there may be better ways of spending those points.

I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.

It was because of the DC Forlorn Fury threat that his opponent had to deploy in the far corner like he did. Then the DC kept him in that corner. They didn't kill much, sure, but they created a huge positioning advantage early game which translated into board control and points for Stephen.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no psychological edge vs good opponents. DC is just a pts pinata for them.

This.

I just don't see how they are value, especially against shooty armies. Basically they are a use once and destroy type deal which extremely heavily reliant on good rolls. If you get bad dice, they're getting hosed having failed to achieve anything at all. They need a points reduction or some better survivability.

They are part of the BA Kamikaze mentality which is inane, and doesn't work without very good luck. The more BA games I watch, the more I believe the vast majority of people play them terribly.

Hobby Hammer wrote:
It was because of the DC Forlorn Fury threat that his opponent had to deploy in the far corner like he did. Then the DC kept him in that corner. They didn't kill much, sure, but they created a huge positioning advantage early game which translated into board control and points for Stephen.

No he didn't have to deploy like that. That's what the BA player wants. DC can't keep anyone anywhere if they don't cooperate.

DC suffer from the same issue as Vanguard vets; they're 1 wound models. Anything 1 wound in this game isn't worth 20 points base. That's what they cost w/Jump packs, and you have to take them with them. For 1 more point, you can get two scouts. For three more points you can get two scouts with sniper rifles that can target characters. For 23 points you can get an eliminator with specialized ammo.

They're far, far too expensive for how squishy they are. And that's before you add Lemartes or Astaroth, which are also overpriced, or kit them out with shields and hammers.

At least VV can get 3++. That's a defensive niche. They still die to small arms and mortals easily though.

Martel732 wrote:
At least VV can get 3++. That's a defensive niche. They still die to small arms and mortals easily though.

How are you getting them to 3++?

Edit: Right they're 3+ base.

Fyi, dc with jump pack is 18p/.

Stephen used dc to secure a win on T1 on the fifth round at bournemouth gt, where he went 5-0. He has made couple youtube videos on the tourney.. also art of war has thomas hegstrom fanboying his BA.

They can do stuff other units can't. I hope all my opponents think the same that they are crap. In my play strategy they have a role. SG are more durable for sure, but they serve a different role for me. Although 3x 10man SG blobs sound fun too

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.

So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.

Well, from the last posts it should be clear that DC with forlorn fury can be a serious threat when deployed at the beginning of the game.
They have a very long charge range putting the enemy in a defensive position.
This effect can be reinforced by a forward deployment of say three Invictors.

Slipspace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.

So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.

Yeah, well...I mean that guy was a plum.

An example of your opponents incompetence is not an example of them doing well. If my opponents are daft enough to leave that kind of option open on T1 the I would've maybe kept mine but alas they aren't.

In my last 3 battles with my DC i got 12 fire warriors, 20 IG and not even 10 intercesors. A smart opponent renders them useless and doesn't need to defend as much.

The vanguard tactics opponent over re-acted to the DC IMHO. He had no need to be so far back as the DC reached anyway which rendered his deployment as ineffective.

Come on.. forlon fury is just an option in the toolbox, you can use.. and it requires you to be going first and have your opponent deployed the right way.. they can be used in so many other ways... Let's not forget it.

Slipspace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.

So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.

And if your opponent had rolled better saves? Or not had such juicy targets exposed like that? I'm not saying who is a good player or not. I'm saying that good players have a tendency to handle the DC with ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xirax wrote:
Come on.. forlon fury is just an option in the toolbox, you can use.. and it requires you to be going first and have your opponent deployed the right way.. they can be used in so many other ways... Let's not forget it.

What are those ways? Because they are such a good target for your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roberts84 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least VV can get 3++. That's a defensive niche. They still die to small arms and mortals easily though.

How are you getting them to 3++?

Edit: Right they're 3+ base.

Storm shields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, from the last posts it should be clear that DC with forlorn fury can be a serious threat when deployed at the beginning of the game.
They have a very long charge range putting the enemy in a defensive position.
This effect can be reinforced by a forward deployment of say three Invictors.

The enemy doesn't have to set up in a defensive position. In fact, spacing out is the thing to do vs BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xirax wrote:
Fyi, dc with jump pack is 18p/.

Stephen used dc to secure a win on T1 on the fifth round at bournemouth gt, where he went 5-0. He has made couple youtube videos on the tourney.. also art of war has thomas hegstrom fanboying his BA.

They can do stuff other units can't. I hope all my opponents think the same that they are crap. In my play strategy they have a role. SG are more durable for sure, but they serve a different role for me. Although 3x 10man SG blobs sound fun too

They're basically Wulfen with no defenses. If you guys think DC are all that, you must gak a brick when you see Wulfen. I would take Wulfen over DC any day myself as well, but they are handled similarly, except you can't assault them as a solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kryczek wrote:
An example of your opponents incompetence is not an example of them doing well. If my opponents are daft enough to leave that kind of option open on T1 the I would've maybe kept mine but alas they aren't.

In my last 3 battles with my DC i got 12 fire warriors, 20 IG and not even 10 intercesors. A smart opponent renders them useless and doesn't need to defend as much.

The vanguard tactics opponent over re-acted to the DC IMHO. He had no need to be so far back as the DC reached anyway which rendered his deployment as ineffective.

It's all about the wrap and trap. Which is never what DC used to be about. It's pretty nauseating really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was honestly expecting a lot more enlightening stuff from the video batrep. It was all just standard BA stuff. Going for wraps and trying to crush opponent into the corner. Flawlessly executed, but a lot of BA batreps seem to be against people who don't understand what the BA player is going for. Maybe I'm wrong there. But the IH guy just seemed to die in place.

Martel732 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.

So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.

And if your opponent had rolled better saves? Or not had such juicy targets exposed like that? I'm not saying who is a good player or not. I'm saying that good players have a tendency to handle the DC with ease.

The problem with this logic (and similar comments from others further up the page) is that if you go first DC have a 25+D6" move before the start of the game, followed by a likely rerollable charge. There aren't usually a lot of places to hide from a centrally deployed DC unit. For example, in the game I mentioned my opponent had 3 options for this Thunderwolves:

1. Ignore DC. Not a great idea because you end up losing a lot of stuff to the first-turn charge
2. Deploy defensively and make the charge as long as possible. This is already a win for the BA player in a lot of cases. He chose this option.
3. Deploy out of charge range of the DC. Great for me as in this case that would basically have isolated his unit way out of the game for at least two and more likely three turns. And he still hasn't really dealt with the DC - they're still going to be charging something.

This is the strength of the DC in a lot of these lists. If you deploy to deny the first turn charge you're ceding board control tot he BA player. On top of that it's almost impossible to deploy in such a way that the DC don't have at least one good target and with the 6" consolidate Litany they have a huge reach even if you deploy a long way back. IT's not always about making your points back with DC, it's about the impact on the early turns of the game. It seems like this strategy works well as it's the core of how DC are being used by competitive players in fairly large tournaments. I don't think all those opponents are idiots.

You don't hide. You feed them something expendable. Like every other assault unit.

Their threat range, including extra Pile-Ins and Consolidates is so great that screening isn't as effective against them as it is against other units. The DC are easily capable of killing an expendable screening unit and then wrapping and trapping another unit afterwards. I'm sure you'll have some comeback about how this doesn't work against "good players" but I feel like I need to reiterate yet again that this is a unit that has been used effectively by successful lists at competitive tournaments using these sorts of tactics. At a certain point I think you just have to accept that whatever personal experience you may have is not tallying with how the army is functioning in the hands of good players at fairly high-levels of play.

I've watched their reports. I'm pretty sure their opponents could have done more, especially as these BA lists have basically zero shooting. You have to space out so DC can't wrap the next unit. That's the only way such expensive one wound models can survive. And in the linked report, he didn't even get wrap with the DC and they all died after killing nothing important. Bottom line: people respect them too much and don't play enough placement games to neuter them.

Pile-ins and consolidates don't use the fly rule, so they can be gamed against readily.

You don't have to sacrifice DC against a screen. In my last game I started my DC onboard, but actually charged through a ruin T4. I just saved CP for potential uwof and support range of Lemartes. The game before I forlon furied my DC T1 and the same opponent assumed that I would be aggressive with my DC and made him play really cagey and screening all his valuable stuff letting me take control of the board and score big. Would have been different game of he would have had other no LoS shooting except his two squads of eliminators. This game I won, but have to say ultramarines are a tough matchup against BA, the 4 unit overwatch is terrifying. You really need to play the mental game and choose your fights. Having many big threats your opponent needs to honor is my strategy and I'm always making sure my opponents knows what my strats and units "might" be able to do.

If DC ain't your cup of tea, don't use them. Only shooting my recent lists have had have been invictors and eliminators, but I don't really miss them. I jusy try to play the mission, score points and have many threats. If I see a big charge, I'll definitely take it BA is very finesse army and don't forgive any mistakes. Winning with BA is satisfying atleast.

Screening doesn't preclude board control. In fact, the more spread out the better. I don't understand why people do this.

"BA is very finesse army and don't forgive any mistakes"

That we agree on for sure.

" started my DC onboard, but actually charged through a ruin T4. "

How were they still alive?

Martel732 wrote:
I've watched their reports. I'm pretty sure their opponents could have done more, especially as these BA lists have basically zero shooting. You have to space out so DC can't wrap the next unit. That's the only way such expensive one wound models can survive. And in the linked report, he didn't even get wrap with the DC and they all died after killing nothing important. Bottom line: people respect them too much and don't play enough placement games to neuter them.

Pile-ins and consolidates don't use the fly rule, so they can be gamed against readily.

So you're claiming that players who have already gone 4-0 at the tournament are worse than the scrubs at your local shop? That seems unlikely. What's more likely is that you're using your units incorrectly and not building a list that threatens people enough to castle up and let you chew through them.

I said don't reply to my posts.

Martel732 wrote:
I said don't reply to my posts.

Trouble in paradise?

If you want to call it that.

Martel732 wrote:
I said don't reply to my posts.

You could try to answer a question once in a while. Rather than sticking to a wall of ignorance.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I said don't reply to my posts.

You could try to answer a question once in a while. Rather than sticking to a wall of ignorance.

Exactly. The problem here seems to be that whatever proof, suggestions or solutions are offered Martel will always either ignore or dismiss them out of hand, usually saying they don't match up with their experience. But, as I've now said numerous times, we've seen BA do pretty well recently at competitive tournaments and those armies usually look pretty close to what a fluffy BA army should as well. Martel seems to dismiss this for some reason. If the "exploitation" of a certain set of rules doesn't appeal, the army doesn't and the background of the game doesn't I'm left wondering why they bother at all. And if they're going to simply ignore anyone that disagrees with them I think Martel will pretty quickly end up shouting into an empty void. Ironically, that's kind of what debating with them feels like for me much of the time.

So, Martel, why do you continue to dismiss DC as a useful part of a BA army when successful competitive BA players have used them effectively in their own armies? Why do you continually dismiss examples of how they can be used by claiming only bad players would fall for such tricks in light of the evidence to the contrary?

Yes why bother indeed. I think I've made my reasoning clear. I'm not the only one who thinks this, either.

Guys...I know forums depend on lengthy debates to exist, but you're really going above and beyond here.

People are allowed to have their opinions on what's more or less efficient. Those opinions may not make sense to you, but maybe their local meta is different than yours. Maybe they play on planet bowling ball...or with heavy line of sight terrain.

Maybe the BatRep you just watched wasn't a battle between two evenly competent opponents. Maybe the dice played a bigger part than normal...

Either way, cut each other some slack, because I'm sure the answer is something more akin to "at times, this unit / tactic be great" than "this unit / tactic is always amazing / garbage"